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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 2, 2019 0:51:01 GMT
So you've heard me mention Stubagful before - one of the more prolific reviewers of BF on Youtube, with a very morbid and sarky sense of humour. Recently, he made an editorial on why he personally was bored with Chibnall's Who (though he liked Punjab and Jodie, especially her 'birth' speech in Woman. And he's just as tired of the outrage con-men as everyone else). He argued it relied too much on familiar formulas and that Chibnall's strength was as an adaptable writer-for-hire, rather than someone with a strong vision and voice.
Now I have complaints with some of his points; intentional or not, it does have a classic 'fan discussion' problem of not being able to delineate the way Who is consumed by fans vs viewers, and how that affects expectations. In addition, it does undersell that, whatever can be said of it personally, S11 did address some real tough subject matter, especially in its historicals, and did elicit strong online and real world reactions (all the schools and kids after Rosa, for instance). However, and more pertinently, I felt this was a good springboard to open up the discussion here on one of the main questions - was Series 11 too safe, formulaic and predictable? Or did Chibbs make the right call? This isn't a S11 good/bad thread persay (after all, conventional does not mean bad, as risky does not mean good), but more an exchange of perspectives, now that we're a fair bit away from S11, had time to let it sit, and about to meet S12.
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Post by relativetime on Nov 2, 2019 2:28:29 GMT
Series 11 felt to me like a response to people who thought Who was playing it too safe. The casting of Jodie, whether you like it or not, was a deliberate risk, for instance; the decision to not include returning classic monsters was another risk; the decision to have an entirely different production crew and writing staff was another risk. From my perspective, this season was already taking plenty of risks and certainly not “playing it safe.”
It’s really hard for any of us to distance ourselves from the series and judge it objectively. That goes for both what we like about the series and what we dislike - and when we ourselves have simply outgrown a program. There’s no shame in outgrowing a show; it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you because you stopped liking a show as much as you used to. It doesn’t mean there’s necessarily something wrong with the show either. I used to really love Star Trek, but things happened in my life and I grew interested in different things, and lately I haven’t found much interest in checking out the latest Star Trek episodes. That isn’t a judgement on Star Trek’s quality - I just have other interests and obligations. Life happens.
For people like Stubagful, it seems pretty clear to me that his interests have moved beyond what Doctor Who offers. He mentioned in the video he hasn’t felt much interest in the expanded material lately either - at least, I’m pretty sure he did. For Stubagful, I think he’s just finally reached that point where he’s outgrown the show. And, truthfully, lately I’ve felt kind of the same. It’s not because I think Chibnall’s a hack or because Big Finish isn’t doing a great job - like with Star Trek, life has introduced other influences and experiences. I’m not as in love with the series as I was when I was in high school and for the first half of college, but that’s how all things are for me. I’ll be really passionate about something for a while - maybe years or just a few months - and then I’ll find some other passion in my life. It doesn’t mean I still don’t love those things - I’m just more excited by other things.
All this is my long way of saying that I think this is what’s happening with a lot of people dissatisfied with Chibnall or the series post Russell even. A lot of these people have grown up and they’re still trying to work out why the things they loved as a child or even a few years ago aren’t giving them that same feeling anymore. So, no, the new season wasn’t playing it safe, but I don’t think that matters to people like Stubagful anymore because if it was as absolutely risky and new and utterly different as possible, that wouldn’t necessarily mean he’d love it. It’s just as likely that could be as much of a problem as anything else.
Anyways, that’s how I’ve rationalized it. Of course, I’m still a fan of the show and I doubt I can be truly objective about the series. Maybe it really is Chibnall’s fault and I’m just too in love with the show to really notice. Who knows?
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Post by constonks on Nov 2, 2019 2:57:21 GMT
Yeah, I think so. (Other than casting Jodie Whitaker as the Doctor obviously)
Series 11 felt like a collection of middle episodes from RTD seasons - no arc, no big events - some (Ghost Monument, Tsuranga) were forgettable along the lines of 42 or The Lazarus Effect, some (Rosa, Punjab) were quite effective like, say, Planet of the Ood or The Fires of Vulcan. Some nice character arcs, certainly. But nothing groundbreaking and game-changing.
Conversely, RTD and Moffat's first seasons came in with a bang. They said "This is the show now!" in a way that Chibnall really didn't.
That being said, I think the show looked amazing, the score was amazing and I do like Jodie and all of the companions even if they weren't all used to their fullest. So Series 12 could be a huge step up if they build on what they've done!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 3:48:53 GMT
Too safe... Mmn, I think Series 11 was a pretty bold break from what had come before in the same way that, say, Jon Pertwee's first season was. If you put Season 6 and 7 back-to-back, Pat Troughton's last year had The Mind Robber for its second serial; Pertwee's first had The Silurians. We went from an era where the Doctor was facing off against a unicorn and Medusa to the Brigadier worried that one of his men has accidentally shot an amateur potholer and a supporting character letting his ego actively accelerate an epidemic that's killing people in central London.
I can see the same element of vertigo going from Series 10 to 11. From the word go, Whittaker's first season was all about reconstructing what Doctor Who was all about. From the ground up. Both metaphorically and literally. In the more radical category of changes, we've got our first official Doctor who happens to be a woman, a deliberate desire not to use any recurring villains (barring Resolution), a pretty stark depiction of grieving for an ongoing companion and a return to the idea that there are no easy answers. Vital for episodes like Rosa and Demons of the Punjab where these conversations are still very much ongoing.
What I think tends to hurt it is the broadcast order. We don't really get to see any of the new talent until halfway through the season. Once we do, en masse, their stories -- Demons, Kerblam!, Witchfinders, It Takes You Away -- tend to get fairly good views and reviews from people. I've heard rumours that we're going to see some familiar faces for Series 12, but honestly, I think if we take all those other voices and spread them out through the season, that alone could give us a much greater sense of momentum for 2020.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 6:18:01 GMT
So you've heard me mention Stubagful before - one of the more prolific reviewers of BF on Youtube, with a very morbid and sarky sense of humour. Recently, he made an editorial on why he personally was bored with Chibnall's Who (though he liked Punjab and Jodie, especially her 'birth' speech in Woman. And he's just as tired of the outrage con-men as everyone else). He argued it relied too much on familiar formulas and that Chibnall's strength was as an adaptable writer-for-hire, rather than someone with a strong vision and voice.
Now I have complaints with some of his points; intentional or not, it does have a classic 'fan discussion' problem of not being able to delineate the way Who is consumed by fans vs viewers, and how that affects expectations. In addition, it does undersell that, whatever can be said of it personally, S11 did address some real tough subject matter, especially in its historicals, and did elicit strong online and real world reactions (all the schools and kids after Rosa, for instance). However, and more pertinently, I felt this was a good springboard to open up the discussion here on one of the main questions - was Series 11 too safe, formulaic and predictable? Or did Chibbs make the right call? This isn't a S11 good/bad thread persay (after all, conventional does not mean bad, as risky does not mean good), but more an exchange of perspectives, now that we're a fair bit away from S11, had time to let it sit, and about to meet S12.
I love STU don’t agree with everyone but am sure I’d be fine down the pub with him
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 2, 2019 8:45:52 GMT
I have to say I agree with a lot Stubagful says and this video also made some points I was thinking. However, reading the counter- points you guys are mentioning is also illuminating. Did Chibbs play it too safe? Not really, since the casting of Jodie was controversial to say the least. However, I totally agree with what Stubagful says why the apparent SJW content was so much into everyone’s faces. Yes, this has always been a part of the series, but it just did not come across as organically as it was with RTD, Moffat, or even back in the day with the Silurians and Dinosaur invasion. It just stood out like a sore tooth. I am also one of the people who rated series 11 as average and who did not get too excited about the episodes. For me, it was just missing the spark that electrified me with series 10. Of course we got a couple of great episodes, but the spark never did catch with me. Not sure, but I was slightly put off by the colorful wonderland we all of a sudden were confronted with. I like my Who a bit more dark and gritty. Have I outgrown the series? Nah, not really. At least for BF and especially the ongoing 8th Doctor stories I have the same enthusiasm I had when I started my Who journey. Just look at my living room. But I get completely what relativetime is saying, I am the same with my other fandoms... and I agree on Star Trek. I still have not seen Discovery and not sure when I will, it just does not appeal to me. That said, I ADORE the Orville and I am excited as a little kid for the Picard series. Just Discovery is not my style of Trek. So no, I have not even outgrown Star Trek it seems.
So yeah, I think that Stubagful as well you guys have valid points and the truth might be somewhere in between. The style of story telling and visuals in series 11 is just not exactly my taste. However, it would be really sad if we all had the same taste. On the convention, I saw so many people dressed up as Jodie, and it is obvious series 11 has invigorated the franchise. This is also good for people like me, because it means the franchise is still going and we will get more content, including more BF content which is more to my taste.
And for some people, the on the nose SJW content (as opposed to „hidden“ messages one could ignore if they felt uncomfortable) is exactly what they feel is right and that it is the right way presenting it so obviously. That is not my cup of tea, but that is okay, too. The world somehow is going back to a more black and white thinking, that is just the way it is. I think it is sad. However, one day things will revert back.
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Post by sherlock on Nov 2, 2019 9:46:28 GMT
Series 11 did feel like it was lacking an overall vision. Whereas Series 1 and Series 5 had clear vision behind their structure, Series 11 kinda just felt like an anthology of stories featuring thirteen and co. Tim Shaw’s return at the end kinda came across as a bit of an afterthought, as the finale is meant to have some kind of a returning villain. I didn’t mind it all that much, but I do think it made Series 11 a bit less impactful as a whole, compared to previous show runner launches.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Nov 2, 2019 9:58:13 GMT
No, because it was, fundamentally enjoyable (unlike, say, Capaldi’s first series which DID try to push the boundary).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 10:02:38 GMT
Saying that Season 11 was too safe seems to imply that the previous season wasn't which I don't agree with. Season 11 felt like the show returning to its roots, probably intentionally given how the gender change may upset some fans. We had the Doctor & 3 companions similar to the original set-up back in 1963, & like that first season we had a mix of sci-fi & historical stories. For me it was a welcome change, not only had I thought Moffat had run out of ideas (what was fresh had now become repetitive) but I also hated the 12th Doctor. Some may see the 13th Doctor's debut season as safe, for me it was a breath of fresh air & the show reestablishing its modus operandi.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 10:03:39 GMT
Series 11 did feel like it was lacking an overall vision. Whereas Series 1 and Series 5 had clear vision behind their structure, Series 11 kinda just felt like an anthology of stories featuring thirteen and co. Which to be fair is the original concept of Dr Who.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 10:06:51 GMT
However, I totally agree with what Stubagful says why the apparent SJW content was so much into everyone’s faces. Yes, this has always been a part of the series, but it just did not come across as organically as it was with RTD, Moffat, or even back in the day with the Silurians and Dinosaur invasion. It just stood out like a sore tooth. Ahh, not having watched the video I expected him to bring up SJW stuff, which is one of the reasons I haven't watched it. The use of SJW as a criticism of the show I find really tiresome & invalid.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 2, 2019 10:22:05 GMT
However, I totally agree with what Stubagful says why the apparent SJW content was so much into everyone’s faces. Yes, this has always been a part of the series, but it just did not come across as organically as it was with RTD, Moffat, or even back in the day with the Silurians and Dinosaur invasion. It just stood out like a sore tooth. Ahh, not having watched the video I expected him to bring up SJW stuff, which is one of the reasons I haven't watched it. The use of SJW as a criticism of the show I find really tiresome & invalid. I am sorry I gave the wrong impression. This was alone my wording. Stubagful is VERY civil and against the SJW criticisms and even did a hate video against hate videos. I am just at home and write on a mobile device so used the short initials instead of longer wording, even if it is politically charged. My mistake. I actually think you will like Stubagfuls videos, even if you won’t agree to everything he says. He is one of the few Who Youtubers who is not running his channel on popular hating topics. He is very refreshing.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 2, 2019 10:22:29 GMT
However, I totally agree with what Stubagful says why the apparent SJW content was so much into everyone’s faces. Yes, this has always been a part of the series, but it just did not come across as organically as it was with RTD, Moffat, or even back in the day with the Silurians and Dinosaur invasion. It just stood out like a sore tooth. Ahh, not having watched the video I expected him to bring up SJW stuff, which is one of the reasons I haven't watched it. The use of SJW as a criticism of the show I find really tiresome & invalid. Just to be clear, Stu's not one of the outrage types who thinks politics=bad or new to Who. I think tuigirl worded it a bit poorly - he does say the themes are more on the nose, but no, he does not agree with what 'that lot' was trying to claim.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 2, 2019 10:25:13 GMT
However, I totally agree with what Stubagful says why the apparent SJW content was so much into everyone’s faces. Yes, this has always been a part of the series, but it just did not come across as organically as it was with RTD, Moffat, or even back in the day with the Silurians and Dinosaur invasion. It just stood out like a sore tooth. Ahh, not having watched the video I expected him to bring up SJW stuff, which is one of the reasons I haven't watched it. The use of SJW as a criticism of the show I find really tiresome & invalid. I meant to say that I agree with Stubagfuls assessment why it APPEARED to certain fans that the topics in question were in the fore- front. I think he makes a very good point. I think you might even agree with him.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 2, 2019 10:26:36 GMT
Ahh, not having watched the video I expected him to bring up SJW stuff, which is one of the reasons I haven't watched it. The use of SJW as a criticism of the show I find really tiresome & invalid. Just to be clear, Stu's not one of the outrage types who thinks politics=bad or new to Who. I think tuigirl worded it a bit poorly - he does say the themes are more on the nose, but no, he does not agree with what 'that lot' was trying to claim. Mea culpa. This is why I hate typing on mobile devices. Typing just takes too long. I have 0 patience. I prefer my keyboard. My bad.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 10:28:36 GMT
Ahh, not having watched the video I expected him to bring up SJW stuff, which is one of the reasons I haven't watched it. The use of SJW as a criticism of the show I find really tiresome & invalid. I meant to say that I agree with Stubagfuls assessment why it APPEARED to certain fans that the topics in question were in the fore- front. I think he makes a very good point. I think you might even agree with him. I see. However the title of his video is 'Why I'm Bored of Doctor Who under Chris Chibnall", that's not something I have any interest in watching tbh.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 2, 2019 10:52:49 GMT
For people like Stubagful, it seems pretty clear to me that his interests have moved beyond what Doctor Who offers. He mentioned in the video he hasn’t felt much interest in the expanded material lately either - at least, I’m pretty sure he did. For Stubagful, I think he’s just finally reached that point where he’s outgrown the show. And, truthfully, lately I’ve felt kind of the same. It’s not because I think Chibnall’s a hack or because Big Finish isn’t doing a great job - like with Star Trek, life has introduced other influences and experiences. I’m not as in love with the series as I was when I was in high school and for the first half of college, but that’s how all things are for me. I’ll be really passionate about something for a while - maybe years or just a few months - and then I’ll find some other passion in my life. It doesn’t mean I still don’t love those things - I’m just more excited by other things. Stu's a fan of Rob Sherman's short story collections, Black Mirror, Chris Morris and a lot of the more abstract/experimental BF audios, like War Master, Chimes of Midnight and Creatures of Beauty. In short, he's someone who has a leaning towards more subversive and experimental media, mainly in form, and can be more forgiving on them for swinging for the fences. However, I say form as, for example, he wasn't over-the-moon about Years and Years, even though it's very different to a lot of your standard dystopic sci-fi, as well as with Rosa (though he acknowledged its power). It makes sense why Stu wouldn't get much out of S11, which has sometimes difficult subject matter but more standard structuring.
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Post by project37 on Nov 2, 2019 10:56:46 GMT
I've been a fan since the late 80s. As a kid, I watched Doctor Who on my local PBS station in the midwestern United States, so even though McCoy was the "new" Doctor for those watching on the BBC, my perspective and enjoyment of the show was being shaped by getting omnibus movie versions of different eras/styles every weekend. Friday nights were Pertwee, Saturday mornings were Hartnell to Troughton, and Saturday nights were Tom Baker ultimately through McCoy. Looking back, this introduction to the show probably fostered an appreciation of change (as opposed to fear of it).
I don't think Series 11 was remotely safe at all and that's a great thing!
Think about it: A woman as the Doctor and three diverse companions (and stories like Rosa and The Witchfinders that took the challenges of those changes head-on), new TARDIS set design, new diverse voices as writers, a dramatic change in soundtrack (including variations on the closing credits!), losing the pre-credit sequence, new visual style (that drone shot in the first episode is simple but gorgeous), self-contained stories that avoided classic/recurring villains...these were all radical departures from what the show had established. These were far from little tweaks - this is knocking everything down and starting over for a modern audience.
Kudos to Chibnall and team for taking the risk to truly reboot the show on so many levels. Was it all successful? That's debatable. Still, I love the *ambition* of Series 11, even if I didn't love all of the stories equally. Tsuranga Conundrum was probably the low point for me, but I adored Rosa, Demons of the Punjab, and It Takes You Away - really bold visions of the show's potential that earned my respect and rekindled my interest. It's good to push the boat out and I'm confident that Series 12 will find the team even more confident in navigating these new waters.
I've drifted away from the show before (the dynamic with Clara's character pushed me away for a few years), but I'm currently back and enjoying it. First episode I watched was the movie version of "Robots of Death" as a pre-teen; 30+ years later, I'll be there in my rainbow stripe t-shirt, sitting down with my kids to kick off Series 12 (hopefully soon!).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 11:40:01 GMT
It's an interesting discussion.
I'd argue the season itself was a bit radical in places and massively conservative in others with very facile right-on attitudes but that's fine as it's almost a soft-reboot. It's The Doctor herself that was massively safe for me to the point of almost losing my interest between seasons. I hope that's just playing it centrist for the first year to get over the "controversial" casting of Jodie and she can get some characterisation more deserving of her talents going forward. T
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Post by mark687 on Nov 2, 2019 12:58:42 GMT
Don't know about Safe Average is closer
I mean there was outright Bad (Conundrum), Forgettable (Ghost, Battle) and Good in General (Everything else). A bit like 80s Who except your lacking a Stand out Great Ep.
Regards
mark687
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