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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 9, 2019 0:37:04 GMT
Seeing the discussion and reflection from the Stubag/S11 too safe thread, I decided to continue the theme by looking back at the flashpoint of, really, everything: the announcement of the first female Doctor. Seeing a part of fandom so completely explode, or implode, on itself and engage in such stunts as the mass EBay DVD sales and the NMD hashtag did leave me a bit bewildered. I bring up the former quite often as I still can't process how or why anyone thought that would do anything.
Now with the benefit of hindsight and a series, I think it's good to go back and wonder: why was the idea of a female Doctor so insanely taboo for so many, for so long? Considering how many time the Time Lords have been changed and rewritten, it's not like it couldn't have happened earlier or you needed this giant justification. But, to tie in with last week's theme on introspect, I also want to ask those on here who were against and were later won over, or at least, not as bothered - what was going through your mind when you heard the announcement? Why did it rile you up so, and how do you feel looking back?
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Post by stcoop on Nov 9, 2019 1:00:04 GMT
You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that the screaming of a handful of people on the internet was in any way reflective of the world at large. 99% of people never cared at all, and most of the 1% couldn't seem to maintain their anger once the series failed to fail.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 1:50:12 GMT
You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that the screaming of a handful of people on the internet was in any way reflective of the world at large. 99% of people never cared at all, and most of the 1% couldn't seem to maintain their anger once the series failed to fail. So true. Also what the hell is the point of the OP dragging this all up again?
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Post by barnabaslives on Nov 9, 2019 3:54:12 GMT
You know, that is interesting to think things have gone from "too risky" to "too safe".
Well, I first got the news from the Big Finish site and I was tempted to delete my BF account in protest for not putting the announcement about a female Doctor in the form of condolences, lol, so I guess this is speaking to me here...
What got me riled up the most is that I was very worried that Chibnall only wanted to do a female Doctor to be gimmicky, and unless you're Big Finish, gimmicks make me very nervous that someone wants to be gimmicky because they think they have something that won't sell itself otherwise, that a gimmick means someone trying to gloss over serious shortcomings, and hmm... maybe I had the feeling that in not honoring the traditional male Doctor model, that maybe the new season wasn't going to have very much respect for things I like about the show.
Also I think the RTD era sort of went for the cheap laugh a lot, and I was afraid Chibnall might follow that with a female Doctor to wring for cheap laughs - you know, that scene near the end of The Woman Who Fell to Earth where Jodie's tossing clothes out of the changing booth, I thought there might be clothes strewn all over the TARDIS the whole first season, maybe there'd be turbulence and everyone would get up with bras on their heads or something, and worse yet maybe things like that were going to turn into running gags.
So I was immensely relieved once the season started to find out that Chibnall was obviously committed to making a quality series and being more tasteful about humor and not constantly going on about the Doctor being a woman, and I was very happy to discover how respectful the season was to things I like about the show, including going all the way back to the beginning with some strong historicals mixed in, which was wonderful and I think it worked wonderfully.
The reality turned out to be that as the season unfolded Chibnall's vision came across a lot more like Big Finish - people who love and respect all eras of the show and are committed to quality productions, so almost all of my fears turned out to be pretty groundless, and I actually enjoyed and looked forward to the show more than I probably have in quite awhile.
Now, if the show will just do something to alleviate my fears that the next season is never coming... :-)
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 9, 2019 8:13:58 GMT
I never had an issue with a female Doctor, however, when I first heard the news, I was a bit like barnabaslives in fearing a gimmick. And of course I was very sad that Capaldi, my absolute favorite, had left. So, yes, I admit that my first reaction was not in favor. That said, I think my main problem was/is that I had fallen in love with the Moffat era. I adore Moffat‘s writing. The sole reason I became a Whovian was that I watched Sherlock and loved it and then decided to check out his other work which sadly included this crap weird sci-fi show my NZ flatmates used to torture me with. And in a rare fit of nostalgia bought the DVDs. After I had given it a chance, it immediately clicked. The Moffat era will always be my highlight and hardly and TV Who gives me the same feel (different story with BF, where several things come very close). Of course it would have been extremely hard for Chibnall to live up to that. I dreaded the change. In the end, it was not as bad as feared, however,I also never got really enthused about series 11. Series 10, for me, is the absolute pinnacle of the TV version. Of course everything else would feel like a disappointment.
As for the ambivalent fan reaction to Jodie‘s nomination for the role. We had a few heated discussions in my fan club back in the day and it was basically this split right down the middle. Although, nobody ever went into full hate mode. It was either „Great!“ or „meh“. I was on the „meh“ side. I am still not really on the „Great“ side.
The reactions on the internet... I will never be able to understand how a fictional work, like a TV or movie series, be it Star Trek, Star Wars or Who, can become such a pseudo-religion that people are completely forget themselves and go into full Djihad mode. It is a bl##dy TV series! The producer is not going to steal and sacrifice your firstborn. There is such a thing as real life, which gives more than amble opportunity to be upset about real problems. Sadly, it often looks as if some people are unwilling or unable to get a real life. So I am think my primary reaction to them is pity more than anything else. I also try to avoid certain websites and YouTube channels to keep myself away from the toxicity.
However. I had been on the German Who convention this year, and there was a panel by the people of the biggest German podcast. I left because I wanted to go upstairs to the BF stall and have a chat with Jason. I later learned from chatting with some other podcasters who stayed in the same hotel as me that they saw when these guys went up on stage, it was like a changing of the guards in the audience. All the cosplayers and fans of the 13th Doctor left the room and the more somber old farts came in. This particular German Whocast appears to be famous for their hate towards Jodie and Chibnall and they also despise cosplayers for some reason. I do not know, I never listened and not planning to. And I was completely oblivious to all this happening around me until the other podcasters told me the story over breakfast at the hotel. And I had such fun at the convention and thought everybody was nice and welcoming! But I admit that I was mainly chatting with other cosplayers and since I was in costume myself, certain other people might just have avoided me. So I am happy that my hate avoidance screen is obviously working.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 8:30:51 GMT
It was a nonsense, stupid debate in 2017 and looks even stupider in retrospect. S11 let me down in a LOT of ways, and so did The Doctor's character. Not 0.001% of it would be because of her gender, just the writing.
We even had members here losing it. Timelord posted that he put his first through the shed wall and was selling his DVDs, only to then like Jodie. TinDog said he'd be skipping the era then posted that he'd written to the Beeb asking for an autograph for Jodie, so even the guys who did have an issue specifically over the gender on this forum don't.
I'm not excited about S12, sadly, but it's not because of having a woman in the lead even slightly.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 9, 2019 10:02:29 GMT
You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that the screaming of a handful of people on the internet was in any way reflective of the world at large. 99% of people never cared at all, and most of the 1% couldn't seem to maintain their anger once the series failed to fail. Hence why I said 'a part of fandom'. Also john, I'm not dragging anything back up, this is simply looking at history. Are you going to say we shouldn't think about, say, Grade cancelling the show in 85 because that might upset someone?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 11:31:13 GMT
I've no evidence to support this whatsoever, but I've a hunch that -- if things hadn't been so contentious during the late 1980s with Who's production -- we could've seen a female lead. It feels like the kind of risk that the JNT era would make in the vein of killing a companion or hinting that they were doing away with the police box. That seems reasonably feasible to me.
I can remember being against the idea, but I wasn't sure why, so I did a bit of self-reflection. It was fear of it becoming a gimmick, yeah. I didn't want a Female Doctor, I wanted a Doctor who happened to be female. Someone allowed be witty, make mistakes, goof off and be courageous all at the same time. I have this wary attitude to characters designed specifically to be role models because, done poorly, it curtails their characterisation. They're never allowed to be people. Not even in private with themselves. So, I was delighted when we got Jodie because she has this lovely Second Doctor vibe to her. She hangs back, watching and then takes control when needs must. It's a nice counterbalance to Capaldi's Doctor to have an incarnation who's comparatively laidback and angst-free.
Thirteen feels like someone you could point out in a room and go: And it bothers you the rest of the evening because you can't quite figure out what you actually saw. Only that it was big. Bigger than something you can process in a single night.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Nov 9, 2019 11:33:31 GMT
Mark Strickson told our crowd last weekend that JNT was really pushing back then for a female Doctor and the powers that be higher up were 101% dead against it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 11:35:56 GMT
Mark Strickson told our crowd last weekend that JNT was really pushing back then for a female Doctor and the powers that be higher up were 101% dead against it. Timing. Did he mention any possible candidates for the role?
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Nov 9, 2019 11:48:10 GMT
Mark Strickson told our crowd last weekend that JNT was really pushing back then for a female Doctor and the powers that be higher up were 101% dead against it. Timing. Did he mention any possible candidates for the role? Nope. Mark focused a bit more on the "decisions made by BBC" side of things. Way above Exec Producer etc a few levels above that..
Immediate "No" was given and "that was that" basically. They shut that down in no time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 11:54:03 GMT
Timing. Did he mention any possible candidates for the role? Nope. Mark focused a bit more on the "decisions made by BBC" side of things. Way above Exec Producer etc a few levels above that..
Immediate "No" was given and "that was that" basically. They shut that down in no time. Doubly interesting as around '87, Sidney Newman was suggesting precisely the same thing to the upper echelons of the BBC. Same result. Interestingly, his suggestion to perhaps temporarily bring back Pat Troughton for the interim was taken onboard... But in a very lateral sort of way. The Seventh Doctor's initial characterisation certainly takes a few cues from there.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 9, 2019 12:44:57 GMT
Nope. Mark focused a bit more on the "decisions made by BBC" side of things. Way above Exec Producer etc a few levels above that..
Immediate "No" was given and "that was that" basically. They shut that down in no time. Doubly interesting as around '87, Sidney Newman was suggesting precisely the same thing to the upper echelons of the BBC. Same result. Interestingly, his suggestion to perhaps temporarily bring back Pat Troughton for the interim was taken onboard... But in a very lateral sort of way. The Seventh Doctor's initial characterisation certainly takes a few cues from there. Since I am still working my way through the "Space Helmet" book... I just learned about this push by Newman, too. How interesting.
I wonder what his motivations behind it were?
Just imagine how that would have gone down back in the day if it had gone through. Maybe the series would have died even sooner, or maybe it would have survived by doing something totally revolutionary. Either way, the franchise would be completely different now if it had happened.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 13:00:04 GMT
Doubly interesting as around '87, Sidney Newman was suggesting precisely the same thing to the upper echelons of the BBC. Same result. Interestingly, his suggestion to perhaps temporarily bring back Pat Troughton for the interim was taken onboard... But in a very lateral sort of way. The Seventh Doctor's initial characterisation certainly takes a few cues from there. Since I am still working my way through the "Space Helmet" book... I just learned about this push by Newman, too. How interesting.
I wonder what his motivations behind it were?
Just imagine how that would have gone down back in the day if it had gone through. Maybe the series would have died even sooner, or maybe it would have survived by doing something totally revolutionary. Either way, the franchise would be completely different now if it had happened.
Don't know for sure, but he seemed to be someone who enjoyed shaking up the status quo. His letter included: Let's say, the show's been going rather well. Colin's lucked out with an era that leads up until 1991, we've had him for a long while, but it's time to say goodbye. With the new decade comes a new Doctor and it turns out the rumours were true: Joanna Lumley was considered for the part and has accepted. Our first female lead in the role. She's got a good range as an actress. Unearthly, yet grounded ( Sapphire and Steel), while capable playing up a mischievous side ( The New Avengers). It takes some adjustment, not the least because the BBC itself is changing, but... Maybe? Maybe, it could've worked. Her personality certainly fits the wanderlust. Deep down, I think we're pretty accepting of change actually. We grumble and huff sometimes because transitions tend towards the bumpy, but I can see the alternate Seventh Doctor sitting comfortably among her peers.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 9, 2019 14:36:51 GMT
Since I am still working my way through the "Space Helmet" book... I just learned about this push by Newman, too. How interesting.
I wonder what his motivations behind it were?
Just imagine how that would have gone down back in the day if it had gone through. Maybe the series would have died even sooner, or maybe it would have survived by doing something totally revolutionary. Either way, the franchise would be completely different now if it had happened.
Don't know for sure, but he seemed to be someone who enjoyed shaking up the status quo. His letter included: Let's say, the show's been going rather well. Colin's lucked out with an era that leads up until 1991, we've had him for a long while, but it's time to say goodbye. With the new decade comes a new Doctor and it turns out the rumours were true: Joanna Lumley was considered for the part and has accepted. Our first female lead in the role. She's got a good range as an actress. Unearthly, yet grounded ( Sapphire and Steel), while capable playing up a mischievous side ( The New Avengers). It takes some adjustment, not the least because the BBC itself is changing, but... Maybe? Maybe, it could've worked. Her personality certainly fits the wanderlust. Deep down, I think we're pretty accepting of change actually. We grumble and huff sometimes because transitions tend towards the bumpy, but I can see the alternate Seventh Doctor sitting comfortably among her peers. I love discussions like these.
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Post by mark687 on Nov 9, 2019 16:07:10 GMT
The problem is as it as always was though IMO "Who Wanted the Gender Change"? and its already been done anyway Romana. Now hardcore fans know about Romana so they know how a female Doctor should work.
Jodie went in with no knowledge and seems to have interpreted her performance per script , now that works fine for the 1st 4, then comes Conundrum.
For the 1st 20 minutes with little knowledge of the situation she is the most obstinate , self-righteous, selfish and downright rude I've ever seen the Doctor being, and she's called on it, then that person dies, its the classic example of what that section of fandom feared.
Similarly in WhichFinders It Takes, and Battle there's no acknowledgement of the conflicted reasoning behind James, The Dad's and Graham's decisions, which several lifetimes experience should be able to pick up on they're just "Bad!"
Now I'm inclined to think they're examples of poor writing as opposed to poor interpretation, however to my mind, to settle the debate there couldn't be anything in the Doctor's character for the section of audience opposed to a Female Doc to pick up on and there was.
As a Series in general its on a par with 80s Who for me at the moment, Flawed but with some very good bits, in fact the above mentioned and under use of Yaz are my main criticisms.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 17:38:04 GMT
You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that the screaming of a handful of people on the internet was in any way reflective of the world at large. 99% of people never cared at all, and most of the 1% couldn't seem to maintain their anger once the series failed to fail. Hence why I said 'a part of fandom'. Also john, I'm not dragging anything back up, this is simply looking at history. Are you going to say we shouldn't think about, say, Grade cancelling the show in 85 because that might upset someone?
Fair enough. But I said nothing about it upsetting someone.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 18:48:15 GMT
I think at least it is healthy that people here are prepared to make a distinction between feeling that series 11 itself was not to everyone's liking as opposed to blaming the casting of a female Doctor and Jodie as being in anyway responsible for this. Unfortunately elsewhere, it was like pouring water on burning oil and remains so as far as many are concerned. Regrettably it also has an effect of shutting down open criticism of the show in general as it is interpreted by defenders as being a coded dislike for Jodie Whittaker, who, like Colin Baker it seems, is doing a pretty professional job regardless. People cite the absence of the show from screens as proof that she has not been successful. For my two penn'orth, I wasn't in favour of the gender change, but gave it an open minded watch. I haven't cared for the shift in tone of the series and would have felt the same if Peter Capaldi was still at the helm. I liked the style of series 9 & 10 and would have liked more of his era in that vein. When the series no longer feels the same, it is harder to buy into the idea that this is still the same Doctor. Whatever the gender of the title character though, if they seriously want the Doctor to appeal to younger viewers as a role model, then it really needs to be on TV more often. I think that is more important than appealing to older viewers by trying to shift its production and script quality ever upwards. I worry more that it is losing its core audience far more than whether it fits my notion of the show - I had my fair share with the classic series and have no right to dictate how it should be in the present.
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Post by Jeedai on Nov 9, 2019 22:28:21 GMT
I would have been ticked off if the Doctor to follow Capaldi *wasn't* a woman, for all the set-ups Moffat planted throughout his seasons. If Thirteen had been cast as a male, due to whatever reason, would the next showrunner have continued to drop that bait without ever doing anything with it? So many shows, especially long-running or myth-heavy ones, will tease major changes and then not follow through on them. Which can turn a show I like into a tedious bore. I stopped watching X-Files because of it, and I never started into Lost because I was expecting more of it.
It wasn't a case of me thinking "It's time for a woman to have a go at being the Doctor." It was a case of "Fire Checkov's Gun or stop waving it in my face!"
But the fact is even if Thirteen were male, I'd still be watching the show. I'm as 'into' Doctor Who now as I've ever been Star Wars or Star Trek. I don't think I could stop watching it just because of one decision I don't like, I'd still be looking for the positives. But I'd have been watching with a distinct sense of a rubber band being stretched even tighter, a clock continuing to wind down. "When is it going to finally happen?..."
What still continues to confound me, all this time since, is why people who continued to watch the show when it brought in a (show-stealing!) female Master thought the Doctor switching sexes was a move too far.
That said, Whitaker's Doctor, while a bright and bubbly change of pace, has been erratic in places (setting the baby giant spiders up to die only to bemoan the loss of their mother...) and I wonder how the non-gender-based criticisms of this past season and her persona in it will be addressed in the next one.
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Post by muckypup on Nov 9, 2019 23:12:08 GMT
I never really had a problem with the gender change, although never really wanted it....... But the casting, was my issue and having watched about half of the series, I am sort of right but it was down to the writing and chubnall’s vision for the show more than Jodie's acting ability, she try’s to make best of a bad lot.......but the accent does grate a bit when coupled with the manic performance........
My fears did come true as she plays exactly the thing I didn’t want.......
She plays mum or surrogate mum at least (or a tenth doctor impersonation)..........never feels like the doctor, for me at least.........no old soul in a younger body.........
But my opinion is a bit irrelevant, as the show did need change and the change did bring as many back to the show initially as it drove away, but mundane story’s, grounded a bit too much in reality the people I know gave up again before end of the series
I hope next series is better for people, but I don’t really care these day.....the magic has gone.........
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