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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 7, 2021 18:31:32 GMT
During "Planet of Fire"? That way, 1) the Master has access to him 2) The continuity snarl about the timescoop can be explained away by nobody bothering to tell Kamelion in any great detail what happened in teh Death Zone while he was sulking in his room. I’m pretty sure it’s not actually Kamelion, just one of his species. Especially considering that there’s two of them in the story. Plus Jon Culshaw plays both the Kamelions in this story with a generic robot voice, rather than the Gerald Flood King John-esque voice he gave the proper Kamelion in the Main Range trilogy.
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Post by constonks on Jan 7, 2021 19:39:48 GMT
During "Planet of Fire"? That way, 1) the Master has access to him 2) The continuity snarl about the timescoop can be explained away by nobody bothering to tell Kamelion in any great detail what happened in teh Death Zone while he was sulking in his room. The thing is, Kamelion is working for Missy by the time he shows up - she swapped Kamelion out for Ainley just so he would get scooped. She could have stolen him from the Doctor at some point, or from Ainley pre- King's Demons... or it could have even been a different Kamelion! (but that's not as satisfying)
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Post by constonks on Jan 7, 2021 19:41:52 GMT
During "Planet of Fire"? That way, 1) the Master has access to him 2) The continuity snarl about the timescoop can be explained away by nobody bothering to tell Kamelion in any great detail what happened in teh Death Zone while he was sulking in his room. I’m pretty sure it’s not actually Kamelion, just one of his species. Especially considering that there’s two of them in the story. Plus Jon Culshaw plays both the Kamelions in this story with a generic robot voice, rather than the Gerald Flood King John-esque voice he gave the proper Kamelion in the Main Range trilogy. Are there two of them? I thought he was just TARDISing around and therefore appeared to be in two places at once. Although that would make sense of the jump where he's with Jo, pretending to be Pertwee, then suddenly with Gatiss on Missy's yacht. I guess Missy just has a few Kamelions kicking around.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 7, 2021 19:50:22 GMT
I’m pretty sure it’s not actually Kamelion, just one of his species. Especially considering that there’s two of them in the story. Plus Jon Culshaw plays both the Kamelions in this story with a generic robot voice, rather than the Gerald Flood King John-esque voice he gave the proper Kamelion in the Main Range trilogy. Are there two of them? I thought he was just TARDISing around and therefore appeared to be in two places at once. Although that would make sense of the jump where he's with Jo, pretending to be Pertwee, then suddenly with Gatiss on Missy's yacht. I guess Missy just has a few Kamelions kicking around. The first one is “killed” defending Jo. And Missy mentions that her “butler” is waiting on the yacht to Gatiss when he shows up just after Kamelion is sent off in the Time Scoop with Jo. So it certainly as though there’s more than one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2021 20:35:14 GMT
Just finished listening to this. I think it's a good idea to have a break between episodes, as - for me - the archness, the sniping, the grandstanding and the campness gets a little too much all in one sitting. Besides, the quieter moments are my favourite. Whilst Missy gets the funniest lines ('hapless, corduroy noise machines' is my favourite), John Simm returns to the precocious manic child of his first televised appearance. All the Masters are well played, but the most unexplored incarnation remains Milo Parker's - even more so than Eric Roberts' version - and subsequently, I'd like to hear more from him. That may be my main problem with this - by necessity, all Masters are sidelined, and I'd like to hear more from them all - which is, I suppose, a compliment.
My favourite segment features Geoffrey Beevers and Eric Roberts together. A great pairing, and Roberts' treatment of Beevers is beautifully, horribly cruel, showing us a different side to 'Crispy.' Roberts himself is the star of the show, I'd say. He purrs his lines like a slinky, charming but feral creature. I hope this is exploited in his upcoming box-set.
I'll give this another listen at some time soon, because there is a lot going on here, and I had to look at this thread to work out exactly what happened at the end.
Masterful is, by its nature, an ambitious release, and the results are entertaining enough, without quite reaching greatness.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jan 8, 2021 13:00:16 GMT
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Post by number13 on Jan 8, 2021 14:17:48 GMT
I have listened to it. I want to like it more than I did. Good -Every scene where the Masters actually interacted was good. -Simm’s debut is great. -Beevers and Roberts’ storylines are the best part. Perfectly done. -Parker’s Young Master is good, albeit gets little time. -Gomez is on fire. Bad -The pacing is bizarre. There’s ages spent setting up various storylines but we see little of the payoff. -What Missy does for most of the runtime seems to have no relevancy to the ending. -The plot falls to pieces at the end. There’s a final reveal that I just don’t know how the character who reveals it figured it out. I have no idea what happened at the end. {Spoiler}Does the entropy wave devouring Missy just reset everything? In a late answer to your spoiler, yes! {Spoiler}It's The 'Ouroboros paradox' named for the ancient symbol of a snake/dragon eating its own tail. Used to symbolise (among many other things) infinity, or the endless, unbroken cycle of life's renewal. In this case, the entropy wave is the Ultimate Master and by devouring all its previous incarnations it makes itself impossible and *Missy voice* - "Bing! Reset switch!" I'm guessing that the reason the War Master was the one who worked it out was because (A) he'd assure us he's the best! and (B) he's been through the Time War and lived among the paradoxical and temporally impossible for eternities. And caused a fair bit of it himself. So he has both the experience to understand and the 'I'll do whatever it takes to end this horror' mindset. He was THE Master and as citizens of the universe we should be very grateful to him!
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jan 8, 2021 18:30:47 GMT
Interview with James Goss.
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Post by Whovitt on Jan 9, 2021 1:18:47 GMT
I've got to say, it's strange to feel like I'm not the only person to think a release wasn't as good as it could have been. I expected much more positivity when I read through this thread, so I'm really surprised that it's been quite hit and miss for most people.
There's not really anything new for me to add to the discussion. Like most, I thought the Beevers strand of the story was the best, I thought Parker, Macqueen, and Roberts were underutilised, and Gatiss was a totally pointless addition to the cast.
I actually found it very hard to hear John Simm. It seems to me that his voice has changed a lot since his TV appearances, because there were scenes that I genuinely didn't know it was him for way longer than I'd care to admit.
I don't like recycling lines for the sake of it (The War Master: Anti-Genesis, I'm looking at you too!). "Oh, we're making a reference!" the script seems to say, as though it's the cleverest thing in the world. No, it's not. It actually comes off as quite lazy to me (but I'm sure I'm in a minority on that). I think there are MUCH cleverer ways to make references or plant Easter eggs. Zellin's name dropping of the Eternals, Guardians, and Toymaker, for instance. Quick, throwaway moments that have significance if you know what they mean and help establish his place in the pantheon of Who immortal beings. Nothing gratuitous, just fun little references. This script could definitely have taken some cues from it. (I've noticed a trend of these kinds of continuity "nods" in James Goss' work though, so I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised) I did like how Beevers' Master called himself "Geoffrey" and Roberts' called himself "Rob" though. I didn't get the in-joke with Geoffrey, but I noticed Rob's and then thought a bit harder about Geoffrey's.
My biggest "problem" with the release is that the actual plot of the story didn't seem to be advertised before release, just the events of the first half hour or so. I didn't have a clue what this story was going to be about, and once everyone was split up things seemed to take forever to actually happen. I found myself really disinterested in events for the most part, and the conclusion felt really flat. Everything just sort of stopped because the runtime ran out, and as others have said, there was no explanation given for how the War Master worked out what as going on. It simply ended because it had to.
Normally I'd say the release wasn't as good as it could have been, but I was genuinely disappointed by it. I'd like to end on a happier note, but I honestly can't think of one.
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Post by number13 on Jan 9, 2021 1:41:11 GMT
I've got to say, it's strange to feel like I'm not the only person to think a release wasn't as good as it could have been. I expected much more positivity when I read through this thread, so I'm really surprised that it's been quite hit and miss for most people. [...] Normally I'd say the release wasn't as good as it could have been, but I was genuinely disappointed by it. I'd like to end on a happier note, but I honestly can't think of one. I am going to be the Lumiat in a threadful of Masters and say I enjoyed it very much indeed. I guess I'll have to write a proper post to back that up, but for now, it was about what I'd expected: a chance for them to meet up, compete and bicker, and a bit chaotic and fragmented because there were so many Masters to fit in and someone was going to be sidelined.
And I thought it was fun. Not too deep, not too meaningful (although the Beevers Master strand was and that surprised me in contrast with the rest; excellent it was too) and overall, enjoyable feet-up listening for the dark days at the start of a gloomy-looking year, filled with little titbits and morsels to enjoy.
I will be resolutely cheery and say how much I enjoyed spending time with this cluster of malevolent monsters. Even the Simm Master back in crazy toddler mode. Yes, really, even him.
P.S. All you Masters - Missy was the best. And Jo was better than the lot of you. So there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 1:59:38 GMT
Waiting to see how nice the collectors edition is before seeing if i get a standard or special, guessing it’ll be a similar collectors box to legacy of time?
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Post by number13 on Jan 9, 2021 2:20:18 GMT
Waiting to see how nice the collectors edition is before seeing if i get a standard or special, guessing it’ll be a similar collectors box to legacy of time? The BF site says the Special Edition product format is '8-disc CD (deluxe slipcover book)' which is exactly how they descibe the LOT LE packaging, so yes probably.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 2:21:00 GMT
I've got to say, it's strange to feel like I'm not the only person to think a release wasn't as good as it could have been. I expected much more positivity when I read through this thread, so I'm really surprised that it's been quite hit and miss for most people. [...] Normally I'd say the release wasn't as good as it could have been, but I was genuinely disappointed by it. I'd like to end on a happier note, but I honestly can't think of one. I am going to be the Lumiat in a threadful of Masters and say I enjoyed it very much indeed. I guess I'll have to write a proper post to back that up, but for now, it was about what I'd expected: a chance for them to meet up, compete and bicker, and a bit chaotic and fragmented because there were so many Masters to fit in and someone was going to be sidelined.
And I thought it was fun. Not too deep, not too meaningful (although the Beevers Master strand was and that surprised me in contrast with the rest; excellent it was too) and overall, enjoyable feet-up listening for the dark days at the start of a gloomy-looking year, filled with little titbits and morsels to enjoy.
I will be resolutely cheery and say how much I enjoyed spending time with this cluster of malevolent monsters. Even the Simm Master back in crazy toddler mode. Yes, really, even him.
P.S. All you Masters - Missy was the best. And Jo was better than the lot of you. So there. You'll need to be the Second Lumiat, I was praising this to the hilt - ending included - last week.
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Post by number13 on Jan 9, 2021 2:30:03 GMT
I am going to be the Lumiat in a threadful of Masters and say I enjoyed it very much indeed. I guess I'll have to write a proper post to back that up, but for now, it was about what I'd expected: a chance for them to meet up, compete and bicker, and a bit chaotic and fragmented because there were so many Masters to fit in and someone was going to be sidelined.
And I thought it was fun. Not too deep, not too meaningful (although the Beevers Master strand was and that surprised me in contrast with the rest; excellent it was too) and overall, enjoyable feet-up listening for the dark days at the start of a gloomy-looking year, filled with little titbits and morsels to enjoy.
I will be resolutely cheery and say how much I enjoyed spending time with this cluster of malevolent monsters. Even the Simm Master back in crazy toddler mode. Yes, really, even him.
P.S. All you Masters - Missy was the best. And Jo was better than the lot of you. So there. You'll need to be the Second Lumiat, I was praising this to the hilt - ending included - last week. Very good! Then I needn't waste my time. (I will read the rest of the thread after I've heard 'Terror of the Master' and am spoiler-proof across the whole set, promise. )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 2:43:19 GMT
You'll need to be the Second Lumiat, I was praising this to the hilt - ending included - last week. Very good! Then I needn't waste my time. (I will read the rest of the thread after I've heard 'Terror of the Master' and am spoiler-proof across the whole set, promise. ) Not a waste of your time. Why with the two of us on the same side...we could take over the forum! Oh...maybe I've got a little Master still in me. Must....be...more...Lumiat!
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Post by daz on Jan 9, 2021 6:53:32 GMT
I haven't finished it yet, I'm going to savour it, but I'm loving it so far.
Missy has gone full Deadpool, though, calling the War Master "Gandalf's husband".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 8:22:21 GMT
Well all the Masters together I was not expecting anything mind blowing so am half way through and I have really enjoyed it and it’s good to Have Jo Grant in it I think more than anything Missy does inspire writers with her mischief.Once again Eric Roberts has me looking forward to his box set later..So what can I say it is BETTER than I was expecting and so far I know it’s a relistenable tale
listening to this group of malevolent Monsters really how boring the pursuit of Universal Domination must be ....then what? I reallly loved this could it have been better....perhaps,but it was an enjoyable get together
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Post by pawntake on Jan 9, 2021 10:25:32 GMT
look forward to part 2! Wait!!! You mean there is no part 2?? I could have sworn just before the music came up i heard the dulcet tones of Nic Briggs say in his best BF voice 'To be continued' We got the usual'ZANY'SCRIPT writing!! Do they all sit round a table and get absolutely rat-assed on whatever their favourite tipple happens to be,then when they reach the point of uncontrollable giggling,they start to write?? Lots of quips,jokes, one-liners,call them what you will? Some old,some new, some borrowed, some blue,even The Chuckle brothers got a mention. Highly entertaining,good fun,with Missy stealing the show(but all the masters were good IMHO)An epic story with an epic musical score,i am not a DW aficionado although i have listened to a lot of DW BF audios it is true! So i just sat back and enjoyed the ride!! This will certainly get more than one relisten from me. And i look forward to part 2.Oh!I forgot there is no part 2
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 10, 2021 7:16:46 GMT
****ing Derek Jacobi. He just waltzed into the recording room, didn't he? And stole the whole damned show. Oh man, oh man, oh man. I loved this story so much. Some quick, uncollected thoughts I had while listening: - John Simm's Master sounds off to me. I think he's speaking in more of a natural accent? Opposed to the more "neutral," or "generic" accent the BBC typically mandates. I think he's also playing the Master a bit different now, with less of the manic energy from the RTD appearances, but not quite with the quiet menace of his final Moffat-era appearance.
- Kinda hard to keep all of the different Masters sorted, mentally, when they're all in the same scene together.
- Holy ****, Jacobi. Completely loved the line, "define winning." Oh, what's that, Simm-Master? You killed the Doctor and took over the universe? Big deal. The War Master managed to do the same, and didn't feel the need to throw himself a party, or unleash some universe-destroying abomination afterwards.
- Nice to see they found the opportunity for Michelle Gomez to do some silly voices. I wonder if that's a stipulation of her contract?
- Interesting that they chose to use feminine pronouns to describe the Doctor that Simm's killed. Obviously this just means that this Doctor was any incarnation post-12, but in-context it's a clear dig at Jodie Whitaker's 13th Doctor. It feels... inappropriate, almost. Like they're killing off an "unpopular" Doctor off-screen. It just feels weird to bring her up at all, when neither she nor her Master are involved in this story.
- Okay, there's this moment where Beevers says, "This occasion was supposed to be my apotheosis!" What the heck is he talking about?
- Fisherman Beevers! He's so much more fun when he's not crispy.
- Oh, wow, the dialog is so good. Particularly loved, "What a boring young woman. Passionate, I mean." And also, "I'm the only one who stopped pretending to be sane!"
- Naturally, the War Master gets center-stage at the very end. Of course he does--he's the only Master that's made a habit of actually getting **** done.
- The Young Master is really fun. Kind of underutilized, but fun. I hope Big Finish use him in future stories. BUT I've got to wonder, isn't he a bit too evil for the Master's first incarnation? I thought he was supposed to be friends with the 1st Doctor, and I can't really see the this Master being friends with anyone.
I went into Masterful not really expecting anything beyond the fanservice. I did not expect sympathetic characters or an emotional heart to the story. So, holy **** was I blindsided by what they did with Beevers' Master. That was just brilliant. He's absolutely the last Master I'd expect in a storyline like that, and Beevers played it beautifully. I think I'm gonna have to say it... I think Beevers is a better Master than Delgado. This story really cemented that--he's just perfect. It was... wait for it... a masterful performance.
That said, I found the whole resolution a bit pat. I've said before that Big Finish will need to sell me on the Roberts' Master, and this is what... his second or third story? They haven't really done that. He just seems like a generic brat to me. Not particularly clever or interesting: just violent and mean. Still gonna give Master! a shot, but only because it's (slightly) cheaper than normal. My expectations aren't high....
....
Also, finally, I'm a bit curious on the continuity. Does Big Finish have like a master-list, do you think, like Nintendo claims to have for the Legend of Zelda games, that perfectly establishes each character's continuity? Because each of these Master's is coming for an interesting place, nevermind the Lumiat--who must now exist, somehow, after her "death" in Missy 2, since Missy recognized her? Weird. But what really got me thinking about the continuity was the Gatiss Master. So this is him -after- Sympathy for the Devil and the NABS sets, but -before- Anti-Genesis? And the thing that destroyed the Unbound Universe was the final-final-for-realsies-final incarnation of the Master from the aborted timeline in Masterful? Sure is... convoluted here, huh?
...And, ya' know, I've got a big backlog from all these sales, and was wondering what I ought to listen to next. And wouldn't you know it, Masterful made the decision for me! I have no other choice: I need move Beevers. On to the 4DAs!~
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Post by sherlock on Jan 10, 2021 15:49:42 GMT
Also, finally, I'm a bit curious on the continuity. Does Big Finish have like a master-list, do you think, like Nintendo claims to have for the Legend of Zelda games, that perfectly establishes each character's continuity? Because each of these Master's is coming for an interesting place, nevermind the Lumiat--who must now exist, somehow, after her "death" in Missy 2, since Missy recognized her? Weird. But what really got me thinking about the continuity was the Gatiss Master. So this is him -after- Sympathy for the Devil and the NABS sets, but -before- Anti-Genesis? And the thing that destroyed the Unbound Universe was the final-final-for-realsies-final incarnation of the Master from the aborted timeline in Masterful? Sure is... convoluted here, huh? ...And, ya' know, I've got a big backlog from all these sales, and was wondering what I ought to listen to next. And wouldn't you know it, Masterful made the decision for me! I have no other choice: I need move Beevers. On to the 4DAs!~
Big Finish has never given the impression of keeping track of their continuity. For example the timeline of the Seventh Doctor and Ace is brought up in behind the scene of Lurkers at Sunlight’s Edge and Love and War and those involved admit to having basically no clue how it fits together. The Lumiat’s role here is simply before her meeting with Missy in The Lumiat from her perspective, whereas Missy has already had that encounter hence recognised her. Timey-wimey and all that. Yep this seems to be between Ruler of the Universe and Anti- Genesis for Gatiss Master. I don’t think the entropy wave is responsible for the final destruction of the parallel universe in Anti-Genesis. I think it just ended naturally, albeit with the Master making arrangements so that he alone survived.
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