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Post by muckypup on Jan 10, 2021 18:23:30 GMT
I've got to say, it's strange to feel like I'm not the only person to think a release wasn't as good as it could have been. I expected much more positivity when I read through this thread, so I'm really surprised that it's been quite hit and miss for most people. There's not really anything new for me to add to the discussion. Like most, I thought the Beevers strand of the story was the best, I thought Parker, Macqueen, and Roberts were underutilised, and Gatiss was a totally pointless addition to the cast. I actually found it very hard to hear John Simm. It seems to me that his voice has changed a lot since his TV appearances, because there were scenes that I genuinely didn't know it was him for way longer than I'd care to admit. I don't like recycling lines for the sake of it ( The War Master: Anti-Genesis, I'm looking at you too!). "Oh, we're making a reference!" the script seems to say, as though it's the cleverest thing in the world. No, it's not. It actually comes off as quite lazy to me (but I'm sure I'm in a minority on that). I think there are MUCH cleverer ways to make references or plant Easter eggs. Zellin's name dropping of the Eternals, Guardians, and Toymaker, for instance. Quick, throwaway moments that have significance if you know what they mean and help establish his place in the pantheon of Who immortal beings. Nothing gratuitous, just fun little references. This script could definitely have taken some cues from it. (I've noticed a trend of these kinds of continuity "nods" in James Goss' work though, so I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised) I did like how Beevers' Master called himself "Geoffrey" and Roberts' called himself "Rob" though. I didn't get the in-joke with Geoffrey, but I noticed Rob's and then thought a bit harder about Geoffrey's. My biggest "problem" with the release is that the actual plot of the story didn't seem to be advertised before release, just the events of the first half hour or so. I didn't have a clue what this story was going to be about, and once everyone was split up things seemed to take forever to actually happen. I found myself really disinterested in events for the most part, and the conclusion felt really flat. Everything just sort of stopped because the runtime ran out, and as others have said, there was no explanation given for how the War Master worked out what as going on. It simply ended because it had to. Normally I'd say the release wasn't as good as it could have been, but I was genuinely disappointed by it. I'd like to end on a happier note, but I honestly can't think of one. i share your sentiments too....resisted writing about how disappointing a release it was for me......i wanted to start the new year on a positive note rather than being a grumpy gordon..... it just didnt work for me only beeves & robots gave me anything to like about release....sorry to everyone involved but a total miss for me.....a case of careful what you wish for...... only zagreyus , and benny adventures vol 1 dissapointed more.....
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Post by elkawho on Jan 11, 2021 3:52:35 GMT
****ing Derek Jacobi. He just waltzed into the recording room, didn't he? And stole the whole damned show. Oh man, oh man, oh man. I loved this story so much. Some quick, uncollected thoughts I had while listening: - John Simm's Master sounds off to me. I think he's speaking in more of a natural accent? Opposed to the more "neutral," or "generic" accent the BBC typically mandates. I think he's also playing the Master a bit different now, with less of the manic energy from the RTD appearances, but not quite with the quiet menace of his final Moffat-era appearance.
- Kinda hard to keep all of the different Masters sorted, mentally, when they're all in the same scene together.
- Holy ****, Jacobi. Completely loved the line, "define winning." Oh, what's that, Simm-Master? You killed the Doctor and took over the universe? Big deal. The War Master managed to do the same, and didn't feel the need to throw himself a party, or unleash some universe-destroying abomination afterwards.
- Nice to see they found the opportunity for Michelle Gomez to do some silly voices. I wonder if that's a stipulation of her contract?
- Interesting that they chose to use feminine pronouns to describe the Doctor that Simm's killed. Obviously this just means that this Doctor was any incarnation post-12, but in-context it's a clear dig at Jodie Whitaker's 13th Doctor. It feels... inappropriate, almost. Like they're killing off an "unpopular" Doctor off-screen. It just feels weird to bring her up at all, when neither she nor her Master are involved in this story.
- Okay, there's this moment where Beevers says, "This occasion was supposed to be my apotheosis!" What the heck is he talking about?
- Fisherman Beevers! He's so much more fun when he's not crispy.
- Oh, wow, the dialog is so good. Particularly loved, "What a boring young woman. Passionate, I mean." And also, "I'm the only one who stopped pretending to be sane!"
- Naturally, the War Master gets center-stage at the very end. Of course he does--he's the only Master that's made a habit of actually getting **** done.
- The Young Master is really fun. Kind of underutilized, but fun. I hope Big Finish use him in future stories. BUT I've got to wonder, isn't he a bit too evil for the Master's first incarnation? I thought he was supposed to be friends with the 1st Doctor, and I can't really see the this Master being friends with anyone.
I went into Masterful not really expecting anything beyond the fanservice. I did not expect sympathetic characters or an emotional heart to the story. So, holy **** was I blindsided by what they did with Beevers' Master. That was just brilliant. He's absolutely the last Master I'd expect in a storyline like that, and Beevers played it beautifully. I think I'm gonna have to say it... I think Beevers is a better Master than Delgado. This story really cemented that--he's just perfect. It was... wait for it... a masterful performance.
That said, I found the whole resolution a bit pat. I've said before that Big Finish will need to sell me on the Roberts' Master, and this is what... his second or third story? They haven't really done that. He just seems like a generic brat to me. Not particularly clever or interesting: just violent and mean. Still gonna give Master! a shot, but only because it's (slightly) cheaper than normal. My expectations aren't high....
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Also, finally, I'm a bit curious on the continuity. Does Big Finish have like a master-list, do you think, like Nintendo claims to have for the Legend of Zelda games, that perfectly establishes each character's continuity? Because each of these Master's is coming for an interesting place, nevermind the Lumiat--who must now exist, somehow, after her "death" in Missy 2, since Missy recognized her? Weird. But what really got me thinking about the continuity was the Gatiss Master. So this is him -after- Sympathy for the Devil and the NABS sets, but -before- Anti-Genesis? And the thing that destroyed the Unbound Universe was the final-final-for-realsies-final incarnation of the Master from the aborted timeline in Masterful? Sure is... convoluted here, huh?
...And, ya' know, I've got a big backlog from all these sales, and was wondering what I ought to listen to next. And wouldn't you know it, Masterful made the decision for me! I have no other choice: I need move Beevers. On to the 4DAs!~
I just love everything about this post! And I agree with most of it. I loved it as well, even though the ending could have been better. And the sentence in bold, it had me laughing out loud. Good point!
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Post by daz on Jan 11, 2021 10:04:11 GMT
Something of a complicated story in the end... I'll be looking forward to Bradley's Basement's update.
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 13, 2021 7:27:58 GMT
I just love everything about this post! And I agree with most of it. I loved it as well, even though the ending could have been better. And the sentence in bold, it had me laughing out loud. Good point! Ahahaha... thanks. I had some small fun writing it up. I do think, in general, Doctor Who writers have a bad habit of writing themselves into corners with ridiculously large-scale problems. Like... just one galaxy is already a big place just in three dimensions... consider all of the galaxies in creation and all of the time in space and... the universe is just impossibly huge. Making the big problem of the piece a weird, Super-Master that basically exists as Calamity Ganon (just a mindless manifestation of the urge to consume) works perfectly well by itself... it doesn't need to also be capable of destroying the universe, and also destroying other universe. Just... why? They build things up too much, introduce too much, and then are very seldom able to wrap everything up satisfactorily in the end. For example, one thing I might advise in a revision would be to axe the Super-Master entirely, simply say that the Simm-Master was so injured in his 'final battle' against the Doctor that he intends to steal the others' regeneration energy, and simply have him be the ultimate problem. Then the end can involve the other Masters seemingly-winning, only for the Simm-Master to steal the 1st Master's energy (thereby making the character relevant) which weakens the others. They then need to do some crazy timey-wimey thing to undo all of Simm's actions, possibly resulting in some character development that explains the change in his persona by the time he meets 12.
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Post by elkawho on Jan 13, 2021 18:13:16 GMT
I just love everything about this post! And I agree with most of it. I loved it as well, even though the ending could have been better. And the sentence in bold, it had me laughing out loud. Good point! Ahahaha... thanks. I had some small fun writing it up. I do think, in general, Doctor Who writers have a bad habit of writing themselves into corners with ridiculously large-scale problems. Like... just one galaxy is already a big place just in three dimensions... consider all of the galaxies in creation and all of the time in space and... the universe is just impossibly huge. Making the big problem of the piece a weird, Super-Master that basically exists as Calamity Ganon (just a mindless manifestation of the urge to consume) works perfectly well by itself... it doesn't need to also be capable of destroying the universe, and also destroying other universe. Just... why? They build things up too much, introduce too much, and then are very seldom able to wrap everything up satisfactorily in the end. For example, one thing I might advise in a revision would be to axe the Super-Master entirely, simply say that the Simm-Master was so injured in his 'final battle' against the Doctor that he intends to steal the others' regeneration energy, and simply have him be the ultimate problem. Then the end can involve the other Masters seemingly-winning, only for the Simm-Master to steal the 1st Master's energy (thereby making the character relevant) which weakens the others. They then need to do some crazy timey-wimey thing to undo all of Simm's actions, possibly resulting in some character development that explains the change in his persona by the time he meets 12. Fantastic ideas there Kestrel. Too bad they James Goss didn't ask you for some ideas!
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Post by daz on Jan 14, 2021 4:19:20 GMT
I bought the Masterful "Limited Edition" bundle (not sure whether that's a meaningful phrase applied to downloads but anyway). This includes two old stories (I am The Master and The Switching) but also a new audiobook called The Terror Of The Master, set shortly after Jo's departure and before the arrival of Sarah Jane. Culshaw is the reader and I've got to hand it to him: he absolutely nails his impression of Benton, The Master, the Brig and the Third Doctor. Pertwee had a number of ... well I hardly like to call them impediments, but he had a number of idiosyncrasies of speech, which Culshaw has mimicked nicely.
The incidental music is also appropriate to the 3rd Doctor era, and all in all this was a very pleasant nostalgic trip as well as being a satisfying story in itself.
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Post by Chakoteya on Jan 14, 2021 9:25:54 GMT
Enjoying the juxtaposition of starving vs abundance story threads etc. and the way things are gradually pulling together. Really expected Prof Yana to be the figure by the lake rather than Brucy-baby to annoy Jeremy. However... Legacy of Time - Split Infinitive struck a big chord with me, and I keep thinking - why don't the later Ms 'remember' what their earlier versions were up to as the stories unfold? Or maybe they do. I haven't gotten to the end yet.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 17, 2021 10:10:53 GMT
Huge disappointment, the narrative was just a series of Masters being evil to each other, the plot wasn't fleshed out enough, Missy was way over the top & Eric Roberts is very monotone.
Beevers Master arc was interesting but ended abruptly, MacQueen Master was ok but wasn't given much to do.
Jacobi always delivers a good performance but given poor material here, Simms Master for a debut story was poor as he was doing the mad theatrics of Last Of The Timelords & came across as a immature imbecile than deviously cunning.
The ending was abrupt & the whole story felt rather pointless, no real backstory which lead up to the cause of events why not show The Masters arrival & how he destroyed the universe.
I usually enjoy James Goss style of writing but he dropped the ball here, a underwhelming disappointment.
2/5.
I think what might worked better is someone taking the Masters out of time & needing each them for a mission which could've lead to a interesting concept of who's behind this conspiracy & have the Masters finding each other adding more clues to who is behind this mystery.
Or something along those lines.
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Post by Chakoteya on Jan 17, 2021 10:35:28 GMT
Eric Roberts monotone? The man was purring silk dipped in honey IMO. Maybe it's a 23rd chromosome thing...
Yes, the build up was better than the resolution, but then again, when given the opportunity to do the right thing for the greater good, true evil will always pick selfishness instead. I don't blame Missy for allowing the Grand Reset Button to be pressed, the universe and their timelines to be restarted.
Baldy was the closest to potential redemption with the colony, but even he couldn't totally stop being nasty for the sake of it.
Loved Crispy quoting the 12th Doctor - I came the long way round - presumably after Kitty rejected him he just hung around pining like a love-sick teenager but didn't do anything helpful because that scream hurt his ego.
All in all, I think it worked because it was dealing with a bunch of self-centred egoists. The Doctors would have done things totally different of course, and that's the point of good versus evil. The Masters are fun because they don't worry about the morality of their actions, just how much they personally will benefit. And in the long run, they never do. Karma.
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Post by Ela on Jan 18, 2021 23:01:04 GMT
So I went to order this today. I normally get the limited edition of these types of releases, but I was stopped short when I realized that the two included short trips are releases I already have and have listened to. I don't, of course, own the included audio story "Terror of the Master" but not sure if getting that story is worth the extra bucks to get the limited edition versus the regular release.
What did folks think?
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 19, 2021 10:33:42 GMT
So I went to order this today. I normally get the limited edition of these types of releases, but I was stopped short when I realized that the two included short trips are releases I already have and have listened to. I don't, of course, own the included audio story "Terror of the Master" but not sure if getting that story is worth the extra bucks to get the limited edition versus the regular release. What did folks think? I think it depends a lot on the person--how much do you like that era of the show? How much do you like audiobooks? How much extra disposable income do you have right now? personally I just can't justify it. I don't really care for the audiobook format, but I'd definitely be more open to it if it were a series of short stories... I'd feel like I was getting more bang for my buck, if that idiom carries over to y'all--in this case I guess the quantifiable "bang" would be "creative energy?" Like... I'd spend the extra $20 if it meant 6 new stories, even if they were 120m altogether, but I can't really make that justification if it's just 1 new story, even if it's double the length. Does that make any sense? The handful of people I've spoken to who have listened to it all seem to like it... though this being the Internet I can't be sure how many of the, actually paid for it... but I just cannot justify the purchase. My only hope is that Big Finish eventually decides to sell the AB separately. Though AFAIK theres no precedent for that. BUT this provides an excuse to go off on a. Rief tangent about something that's been bugging me for a while now: Big Finish can be really anti-consumer. I don't know if this is the result of a genuine desire on their part, or just an accident of lazy web design (they can't be bothered to put basic systems and features in place that are standards across almost every other digital media platform) -- but it is increasingly frustrating how they "punish" loyal customers by making things more expensive for those of us who already own BF media versus those of us who don't. Take a look at media bundles in pretty much any other storefront, and there are typically systems in place to accommodate buyers who already own some of the included items. Valve's Steam storefront is especially good at this because each bundle is presented with an itemized list marking how much cheaper each included item is relative to the MSRP. If you buy a bundle that includes items you already own, you get a price that is decreased accordingly. So for a typical 8DA bundle (let's not even get into how infuriatingly inconsistent the actual bundling is at Big Finish) might look like this in the cart assuming a standard $29.99 USD approximate price per Boxset: - Ravenous 1 - $20 (30% off $30 MSRP)
- Ravenous 2 - $20 (30% off $30 MSRP)
- Ravenous 3 - $20 (30% off $30 MSRP)
- Ravenous 4 - $20 (30% off $30 MSRP)
Buy the bundle? Pay $80. Already own one of the sets? Pay $60. Already own two of the sets? Pay $40. Already own three sets? Pay $20.
You might wonder at the last one: why let someone buy a bundle of only one Boxset? Because your rewarding the customer for their loyalty by allowing them to purchase the set at the same price as new consumers who haven't demonstrated any loyalty.
And the prices and discounts don't need to be uniform--Big Finish can always fiddle with those to make it clear that some releases are valued more highly than others, to make sure the bigger discounts go to people who've been been "loyal" to a release. IE a Bulle is relatively cheaper if you own the oldest included items and the discounts are relatively less if you only own the most-recently released items.
The way the current system works, in these "standard" (they're not, but again, a rant for another day) four-release bundles, owning just own of the included box sets reduces the discount to 0%; owning 2 and you're paying more for the bundle than you would buying the remaining items separately, which is the exact opposite point of bundling things together in the first place!
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Sorry, but it's just annoying, is all. In the case of Masterful, it honestly feels a bit insulting that the relative cost of the audiobook increases so much just because I also own the short trips. It makes me feel like I'm being punished for ... having purchased media from Big Finish in the past.
Big Finish talks a lot about how small and niche their audience is. And though I'm a big fan, and recommend them often... I get it, and a lot of it is their fault. It's hard to get into Big Finish when they have such a vast catalog of work, that is so incredibly disorganized, so much more expensive relative to basically every other form of mass-market entertainment media, AND you have to deal with anti-consumer nonsense like this. It is 2021. I might give BF a pass if this were still 2008 or so, and no one knew how to run a digital storefront well... but it's pretty firmly established by now, and there's really no excuse. If big Finish wants to grow their audience, making their content more accessible and their storefront more consumer-friendly would go a very long way, i think.
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Post by Ela on Jan 19, 2021 18:36:38 GMT
Kestrel , I can't disagree with some of what you say about some of the pricing of bundles. It was explained to me quite a while ago by one of the BF staff that the pricing becomes a discount once the pre-order price expires, which I believe is true if you are order the CDs and is not always true in the case of downloads. I always check to see what the bundle price is going to be before ordering and only order the bundle if it's going to be an actual discount over the pre-order price. I almost always pre-order something I really really want. I have to admit that I was annoyed to see that Masterful is spending an extra disc (and charging extra money) for two short trips that many of us already own, but I guess if you're a newer listener, it's worth the price to get two short trips if you don't already own them. I've found that lots of stuff appears to be "included" in things I've bought previously, mostly short bonus releases. It makes it hard to figure out whether I actually own something or not. For example, I do own both of the short trips on Masterful, but if I go to the release page for one of the short trips I do not get the green circle proclaiming I already own it, because it's listed under "short trip rarities" and I got it as a subscriber bonus. I had to go to a list I've kept on my own to make sure I wasn't misremembering. I guess it's too much to ask of BF to keep track of all that stuff. Sometimes some of the extras on a limited edition release amount to advertising, which was true for Light at the End, which had a series of tracks called "This is Big Finish" which was basically advertising. Still, I can't fault Big Finish that much. They're a small company, it costs money to make these productions, and they have to make a profit somehow to keep it going. Enough off topic chat.
Back to the subject of Masterful, I do see that the audio book has gotten some good reviews, and I don't personally object to audiobooks, so I'm still on the fence.
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Post by x2magneto on Jan 19, 2021 18:57:23 GMT
I've been thinking about the story again and had some ideas. I think the lack of focus hurts the individual plot threads. It would have helped, I think, to a have a definitive end goal at the forefront so that the purpose could direct the conflicts. Case in point: the Young/Reborn Master spaceship drama. Great framework, but it fizzles out because the goal is 'get to destination,' not 'we have to take over the ship so we can get back and stop John Simm.' In fact, I would take the same story and put both Masters in the bowels with the starving passengers. The Young Master's story has hinted he isn't all that impressed with his future and views himself as a lesser evil, a version of the Master who still thinks he's out to help people. So he does. He also gets chummy,and you know what, the lady that's leading the rebellion, well, she might be his girlfriend, and he has a plan that can help the passengers, but at the expense of the moment, the need for saving the universe. Reborn Master is all about getting down to business, no matter who has to die. In the end, when the Masters oust the crew and install themselves as the captains, the choice comes down to either helping the people left and risk losing the war with Simm, or kill them all and guarantee a way back to ground zero. The Young Master even threatens to kill himself and unravel his timeline because he turns briefly away from the horror of what he'll turn into, but his true nature wins out and 'the day is saved.' At the end of the story, maybe the Young Master and Reborn Master begin a rivalry.
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Post by Ian McArdell on Jan 20, 2021 20:44:45 GMT
My take on Masterful is up on CultBox - I enjoyed some of the ideas but got a little lost towards the end. Loved 'Terror of the Master' though, that was a real treat!
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jan 21, 2021 19:16:23 GMT
I wont be expecting my kitchen sink edition till at least March :
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Post by mark687 on Jan 21, 2021 23:02:33 GMT
Plus its Selling Fast!
Regards
mark687
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jan 21, 2021 23:15:13 GMT
Plus its Selling Fast! Regards mark687 Just goes to show there will always be a market for physical products
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Post by theillusiveman on Jan 21, 2021 23:42:51 GMT
Plus its Selling Fast! Regards mark687 Just goes to show there will always be a market for physical products Just wish it was packaged like the light at the end rather than the legacy of time
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 12:39:29 GMT
Well see standard edition is on eBay already Still patient for my LTD...to fill a draughty wee hole near my sash windows 😂
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jan 22, 2021 12:41:02 GMT
Well see standard edition is on eBay already Still patient for my LTD...to fill a draughty wee hole near my sash windows 😂 If I had bought a physical release it would be on eBay. Awful. Will probably be on my worst if the year list.
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