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Post by nucleusofswarm on May 12, 2021 0:14:12 GMT
Labour's proposed ID card scheme was an abomination, that's very true. But that would have been a mandatory national ID card linked to a database which would have allowed government to track our lives. It wasn't having to show that card to vote that was the problem, it was the very existence of the proposed card/database that would have been the problem. It is the worst thing that Labour have ever done or tried to do, but then, they had form on requiring UK citizens to have 'papers' in peacetime.
As it happens, I fall into that 3.5m right now and I am not revolting. (Insert joke here.) Postal voting is a pre-existing solution to the 'problem' (so, no new setup costs beyond a publicity campaign or a mailshot to invite signups) and it would very likely increase turnout among the voters that people are concerned about excluding, if they received postal votes. Signing up is very easy and there is a point at which you have to say, if people can't be bothered to do XYorZ in order to vote, are they likely to vote?
I think this part is leaving me a bit confused here: it seems, at least from how I'm reading it, that you're talking about voter apathy, and this kerfuffle about voter IDs that requires paid paperwork isn't connected to that, since this about people who were going to vote and now can't. Neither Boris or I are talking about motivating people to vote but instead about a way to combat barely-existent in-person voter fraud which, in my view, is fundamentally undemocratic since it requires you, essentially, to pay to vote. Indeed, from the rest of your comment, it seems you agree voter ID isn't a good idea, so you discussing postal votes reads like a non-sequitir to the question of 'should in-person voting have IDs'. As citizens in a democracy, why shouldn't they be able to do both?
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Post by Chakoteya on May 12, 2021 9:09:53 GMT
ROLFLMAO! Now this is how to start your day. (You'll need to click the image to read it properly...)
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on May 12, 2021 11:24:18 GMT
I would imagine that many or even most people of pensionable age vote by post, and if not, that's the simple solution for them or anyone else. No photo ID required at any stage. And it's a lot more convenient than going to the polling station in person.
Anyone can sign up for postal votes so there is no risk at all of exclusion. It's free (even the return post-paid envelope), ballot papers are sent to you automatically for all future elections if you ask for that, and when you vote, your signature and date of birth (which accompany, but are separate from the sealed envelope holding your ballot paper) are verified against your original registration so that's all the proof of ID you need.
I mean that's fine, but that's kind of talking past the issue here: that Boris' 'reform' for the main way people vote isn't fixing any actual problem and is putting up pointless barriers meant to disenfranchise a not insubstantial segment of the population (est. at over 3.5 mill) who don't/can't get those IDs. Voter fraud in the UK is so astronomically small that this doesn't really benefit anyone, not to mention if you are from a poorer background, you're less likely to own a car (license) or travel (passport), and both cost money. Unless Boris has a secret gotchya of making these docs free ala Nor. Ireland's ID system, then how is this method not open to immediate abuse?
[snip]
Surely it's odd that, if his party is doing so well with the working class, why is he implementing something that could only hurt their ability to vote for him? Isn't his campaign success self-evident?
I could be wrong but 20 -30 years ago when the psephologists talked about working class voters they talked about the C1s, C2s, Ds & Es with C1s and C2s being the better off, skilled working class and the Ds and Es being the less well off unskilled, unemployed working class. I haven't heard much recently about these groups, maybe these terms have fallen out of fashion, but I'd be interested to know which part of the working class Boris Johnston's support is coming from.
The relevance of this to your point is that I suspect the Tory support comes more from the C1s and C2s whereas it will be the Ds and Es who are more disenfranchised by this reform. Although I think it will in the end lead to voter registration drives like they have in America and nullify any long term benefit to the Tories.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on May 12, 2021 11:27:15 GMT
Good old Rafael Behr. Just like the 4rth Doctor said of himself, Mr Behr has a gift for the telling phrase. Here's a couple from today's article: "Johnson governs as he has always lived, on the never-never" "The high points of his career are the campaigns, won in defiance of critics who think integrity and attention to detail matter. The low points are the in-between times, when he has to take executive responsibility, pick between imperfect options, manage expectations, confront the gap between rhetoric and reality" www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/12/johnson-levelling-up-queens-speech
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on May 12, 2021 11:32:28 GMT
I mean that's fine, but that's kind of talking past the issue here: that Boris' 'reform' for the main way people vote isn't fixing any actual problem and is putting up pointless barriers meant to disenfranchise a not insubstantial segment of the population (est. at over 3.5 mill) who don't/can't get those IDs. Voter fraud in the UK is so astronomically small that this doesn't really benefit anyone, not to mention if you are from a poorer background, you're less likely to own a car (license) or travel (passport), and both cost money. Unless Boris has a secret gotchya of making these docs free ala Nor. Ireland's ID system, then how is this method not open to immediate abuse?
Heck, here's some legal professionals throwing their two cents in on voting fraud:
Surely it's odd that, if his party is doing so well with the working class, why is he implementing something that could only hurt their ability to vote for him? Isn't his campaign success self-evident?
Labour's proposed ID card scheme was an abomination, that's very true. But that would have been a mandatory national ID card linked to a database which would have allowed government to track our lives. It wasn't having to show that card to vote that was the problem, it was the very existence of the proposed card/database that would have been the problem. It is the worst thing that Labour have ever done or tried to do, but then, they had form on requiring UK citizens to have 'papers' in peacetime.
I've never really understood the objection to ID cards. I've no desire to have to get one, but if the government really want to track me, I'm not really that bothered. I'm not up to anything illegal or immoral and I've nothing to hide so why get hot under the collar about it?
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Post by Chakoteya on May 12, 2021 14:25:19 GMT
^^ Websites and the supermarkets probably know more about you via their loyalty cards and tracking cookies. An ID card that includes important medical information like type 1 diabetes could be useful if you're ever in an accident too. A friend who regularly travelled in Europe found his Belgian one invaluable when he was taken ill over there.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on May 13, 2021 21:45:18 GMT
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Post by number13 on May 13, 2021 22:48:26 GMT
ROLFLMAO! Now this is how to start your day. (You'll need to click the image to read it properly...)
There must be an awful lot of disappointed people on Twitter right now...
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Post by number13 on May 13, 2021 22:51:55 GMT
You're assuming they were being wrongly removed? Or is it that all removals are wrong in principle? Or just that (as is clear from the story) the timing was, to say the least, crass.
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Post by number13 on May 13, 2021 22:54:38 GMT
Labour's proposed ID card scheme was an abomination, that's very true. But that would have been a mandatory national ID card linked to a database which would have allowed government to track our lives. It wasn't having to show that card to vote that was the problem, it was the very existence of the proposed card/database that would have been the problem. It is the worst thing that Labour have ever done or tried to do, but then, they had form on requiring UK citizens to have 'papers' in peacetime.
I've never really understood the objection to ID cards. I've no desire to have to get one, but if the government really want to track me, I'm not really that bothered. I'm not up to anything illegal or immoral and I've nothing to hide so why get hot under the collar about it? It's the first step on the road to a society of 'social credit'. Do you trust all possible government, at all levels, forever? I'm far more relaxed about and trusting of our various governments (regardless of party) than many people are, but not to that extent.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on May 13, 2021 23:38:05 GMT
You're assuming they were being wrongly removed? Or is it that all removals are wrong in principle? Or just that (as is clear from the story) the timing was, to say the least, crass. I believe migrants are human beings not cattle, and that Patel, even by this Cabinet's subterranean standards, is a rube of a Home Secretary.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 0:00:28 GMT
You're assuming they were being wrongly removed? Or is it that all removals are wrong in principle? Or just that (as is clear from the story) the timing was, to say the least, crass. I believe migrants are human beings not cattle, and that Patel, even by this Cabinet's subterranean standards, is a rube of a Home Secretary. A tale of 5 Twitters. Today the MSPs were sworn in after the Scottish elections. Busy day. So when news broke about what was happening on Kenmure Street, all the leaders of the 5 parties at Twitter got on to it. Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP called for immigration to be devolved calling out "appalling asylum & immigration policy" Anas Sarwar of Labour said "We need an immigration policy that is based on human dignity & human rights", Willie Rennie of the Lib Dems re-tweeted the videos of the men being freed. Patrick Harvie of the Greens called it "the best of Glasgow and the worst of racist home office policy". Douglas Ross of the Tories..... posted about himself, being sworn in as an MSP. With a nice new suit on. One of these things is not like the other is it? Dougie boy doesn't defend his colleagues who wrote the policy. He doesn't disagree with them either. He doesn't say anything at all. That's a hell of a first act, ignoring something in the biggest city in Scotland on your first day as a sitting MSP and Leader of your party. Dougie - The New Ruth - needs to work on that. He's the leader of the opposition yet the biggest news of the day, of the week, seems to have eluded him. He did say "the hard work starts now!" in his tweet, though. Maybe he meant "Well, not RIGHT now. Later now..tomorrow maybe". Maybe he was all tired after his big day getting his picture taken in his first big-boy job.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 0:56:15 GMT
Anum Qaisar-Javed wins a seat at Westminister after winning the Airdrie & Shotts by-election for the SNP. She's very symbolic of what's going on with modern Scotland, among younger voters in that she was a Labour member who joined the SNP to support the Independence movement after the 2014 referendum. She's also 28 and a Modern Studies teacher. First...quit having MPs so young - makes the rest of us seem older! Second... I think our younger teachers were 50. They certainly didn't look as glam as Anum!
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Post by number13 on May 14, 2021 3:59:49 GMT
You're assuming they were being wrongly removed? Or is it that all removals are wrong in principle? Or just that (as is clear from the story) the timing was, to say the least, crass. I believe migrants are human beings not cattle, and that Patel, even by this Cabinet's subterranean standards, is a rube of a Home Secretary. She certainly upsets some people on the Left.
"Labour has suspended Unite's assistant general secretary from the party after he tweeted that Home Secretary Priti Patel "should be deported". "
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 7:55:48 GMT
Anum Qaisar-Javed wins a seat at Westminister after winning the Airdrie & Shotts by-election for the SNP. She's very symbolic of what's going on with modern Scotland, among younger voters in that she was a Labour member who joined the SNP to support the Independence movement after the 2014 referendum. She's also 28 and a Modern Studies teacher. First...quit having MPs so young - makes the rest of us seem older! Second... I think our younger teachers were 50. They certainly didn't look as glam as Anum! 'Woof woof' etc...
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Post by Chakoteya on May 14, 2021 8:12:10 GMT
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Post by nucleusofswarm on May 14, 2021 8:36:05 GMT
I believe migrants are human beings not cattle, and that Patel, even by this Cabinet's subterranean standards, is a rube of a Home Secretary. She certainly upsets some people on the Left.
I mean, you know her history? Her multiple firings, her inconsistent support of police, her being a security threat who says things she really ought not to, to people she ought not to. Not sure what being left wing has to do with seeing her track record as serial incompetence.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on May 14, 2021 9:50:03 GMT
She certainly upsets some people on the Left.
I mean, you know her history? Her multiple firings, her inconsistent support of police, her being a security threat who says things she really ought not to, to people she ought not to. Not sure what being left wing has to do with seeing her track record as serial incompetence.
As someone on the right but not enamoured of the right's current leadership in the UK or the US, I think that Patel should have been sacked or resigned for bullying civil servants. Regardless of left or right or party labels there ought to be a basic level of decency, which Patel and Boris have failed to live up to in this instance. Yes I know I'm pathetically naive for thinking so, but I do happen to think so. Now I'm off to Google the Liz Cheney fan club so I can join up.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 10:38:35 GMT
I mean, you know her history? Her multiple firings, her inconsistent support of police, her being a security threat who says things she really ought not to, to people she ought not to. Not sure what being left wing has to do with seeing her track record as serial incompetence.
As someone on the right but not enamoured of the right's current leadership in the UK or the US, I think that Patel should have been sacked or resigned for bullying civil servants. Regardless of left or right or party labels there ought to be a basic level of decency, which Patel and Boris have failed to live up to in this instance. Yes I know I'm pathetically naive for thinking so, but I do happen to think so. Now I'm off to Google the Liz Cheney fan club so I can join up. I agree. Patel gets particular dislike because of her actions. Including breaking the ministerial code, which is expected to be something you resign over before you get sacked*. Sir Alex Allan, Johnson's own adviser on the code quit because his findings were ignored by No.10 and he looked like an idiot, independently finding that Patel had consistently failed to meet standards of conduct but to have Johnson bin his findings and let Patel go on about her work. And we're talking about her consistent behaviour, not just infamously reducing Sir Philip Rutnam to tears. I believe his constructive dismissal case is still to be heard but Allan's fidnings showed her behaviour there to be anything but a one-off. Like Cummings for ages before Patel, it's baffling how Johnson has trodden over so many to get where he is, tossing them away the second they're of no use - but is seemingly intensely loyal to others. He'd either stab you in the back..or have your back. One extreme to the other. But hey, it works for them. Steer Karmer seems a decent man. Didn't stop his party having a shocker last week. Maybe we are out of touch and "decency should be a factor" is just not a thing anymore with voters. And speaking of decency, anyone with any would know racism is alive and well. I have zero doubt Patel experiences it. And sexism. And whomever causes that towards her deserves what they get too. I saw a female MP say she's so used to horrible language from fringe idiots that she doesn't even get hurt over it now. That's a truly sad place. But if Twitter shows anything its that there is HATRED for everything for some reason and people who must sit with their phones all day waiting to harass others with the most disgusting stuff. Doesn't matter your party, your race, your religion, your beliefs - check the responses from anyone in high office and you'll find bile almost like clockwork. *Patel not resigning or being sacked did not stop the major UK press outlets saying Nicola Sturgeon had to go if she was found to break the ministerial code, omitting that Patel was still in her job. Odd that.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on May 14, 2021 11:51:45 GMT
I mean, you know her history? Her multiple firings, her inconsistent support of police, her being a security threat who says things she really ought not to, to people she ought not to. Not sure what being left wing has to do with seeing her track record as serial incompetence.
As someone on the right but not enamoured of the right's current leadership in the UK or the US, I think that Patel should have been sacked or resigned for bullying civil servants. Regardless of left or right or party labels there ought to be a basic level of decency, which Patel and Boris have failed to live up to in this instance. Yes I know I'm pathetically naive for thinking so, but I do happen to think so. Now I'm off to Google the Liz Cheney fan club so I can join up. Nothing naive about it, good sir. It's called wanting politicians to do their jobs - what a concept!
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