Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 16:18:00 GMT
It was following Force Awakens that I started to back off on this franchise. I have a copy of Last Jedi somewhere but I've never watched it. I was put off by changes in showrunners. The whole "Too Many Cooks" thing. Complain legitimately about elements of the Prequel Trilogy, Lucas was still steering that ship. After Disney takes over, one movie goes one way, the next another, and the final one has to backpedal, retcon and all that... It seems like they tried to hide this by moving RoS along so fast that one doesn't stop to think, and apparently, that worked, (if you actually believe the Rotten Tomatoes Audience Score),, but among "thinking" viewers, it seems that no one likes this movie, and since I fall into that category, I would rather not see it. Please define a "thinking" viewer. Sounds like a rather condescending term to those that did like the movie. Do they not think?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:08:36 GMT
It was following Force Awakens that I started to back off on this franchise. I have a copy of Last Jedi somewhere but I've never watched it. I was put off by changes in showrunners. The whole "Too Many Cooks" thing. Complain legitimately about elements of the Prequel Trilogy, Lucas was still steering that ship. After Disney takes over, one movie goes one way, the next another, and the final one has to backpedal, retcon and all that... It seems like they tried to hide this by moving RoS along so fast that one doesn't stop to think, and apparently, that worked, (if you actually believe the Rotten Tomatoes Audience Score),, but among "thinking" viewers, it seems that no one likes this movie, and since I fall into that category, I would rather not see it. Please define a "thinking" viewer. Sounds like a rather condescending term to those that did like the movie. Do they not think? Not necessarily so. I would venture to say that a problem for myself is that there is too much plot shoved into the action to give 'depth'. A simple strong story thread to carry the spectacle is enough for many. My favourite Star Wars is the one where a motley rag tag band rescue the Princess from the Demon Kings Castle and return with a back-up to pull down the Castle for good. Very old fashioned storytelling, but in space with lots of set pieces and spectacle. That's what people like, not to have to think to much or sit through too many character building chunks of dialogue.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:17:23 GMT
Please define a "thinking" viewer. Sounds like a rather condescending term to those that did like the movie. Do they not think? Not necessarily so. I would venture to say that a problem for myself is that there is too much plot shoved into the action to give 'depth'. A simple strong story thread to carry the spectacle is enough for many. My favourite Star Wars is the one where a motley rag tag band rescue the Princess from the Demon Kings Castle and return with a back-up to pull down the Castle for good. Very old fashioned storytelling, but in space with lots of set pieces and spectacle. That's what people like, not to have to think to much or sit through too many character building chunks of dialogue. Oh that's what people like?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 17:32:54 GMT
To be fair George Lucas sold his legacy to Disney for $4 billion & the prequels are average at best. I always enjoyed prequels, yeah dialogue bit naff but heart of star wars was there, these film feel hollow. At least the prequels are telling a coherent story over three movies I guess. But I have no desire to watch them again.
|
|
|
Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 29, 2019 22:06:09 GMT
The more I think about it, the more I dislike it. The film is a mess and Jar Jar Abrams really should not be let near a film camera.
|
|
|
Post by Digi on Dec 29, 2019 22:19:59 GMT
Contrarily, I like it the more I think about it, and I wish JJ had had the whole trilogy instead of burning the middle chapter on a guy who had no interest in being part of a story larger than himself.
|
|
|
Post by randomcomments on Dec 29, 2019 23:25:18 GMT
Contrarily, I like it the more I think about it, and I wish JJ had had the whole trilogy instead of burning the middle chapter on a guy who had no interest in being part of a story larger than himself. I just honestly can't imagine seeing TLJ and thinking that about Johnson. He leaves the space wide open for new storytelling by the end of the film, and then Abrams doesn't pick up on those threads. Personally, at least, I think the idea of not having the Emperor/Vader dynamic anymore would have been really interesting. So did Johnson. But then Abrams just literally brought the actual Emperor back, with no explanation, and did a bunch of RotJ scenes again, despite everything.
|
|
|
Post by Digi on Dec 30, 2019 0:59:01 GMT
Contrarily, I like it the more I think about it, and I wish JJ had had the whole trilogy instead of burning the middle chapter on a guy who had no interest in being part of a story larger than himself. I just honestly can't imagine seeing TLJ and thinking that about Johnson. He leaves the space wide open for new storytelling by the end of the film, and then Abrams doesn't pick up on those threads. Personally, at least, I think the idea of not having the Emperor/Vader dynamic anymore would have been really interesting. So did Johnson. But then Abrams just literally brought the actual Emperor back, with no explanation, and did a bunch of RotJ scenes again, despite everything. To be clear: I don't hate TLJ. There are a few things in it that I actually quite like -- including the Luke storyline that has become a focal point for a lot of the moaning about it. But between the (needlessly) butt-busting runtime, and a number of other story choices, it just doesn't add up to a great deal for me, and I feel like it wasted a lot of the potential set up in the first film. I don't hate it, I just find it very firmly middle-of-the-road, and would rank it somewhere near the lower middle of the pack in terms of all the SW films to date. What I was getting at though, was the production process and specifically how it seems like Johnson is just not suited to be part of projects that he isn't personally in charge of. By all accounts that I've read, Johnson's approach to the story was not at all collaborative. Rather, he came at it as 'this is the movie I want to do, and I don't care what happened Part 1.' My understanding is that he already had his story for TLJ scripted before they were even done hashing out the story for TFA. He had access to the dailies to TFA, which were used to make small tweaks so that TLJ wasn't completely an island, but it was just the story he wanted regardless of whatever else was going on in the trilogy. To me, that is absolutely the wrong way to come at one of these movies. When you're building a trilogy, you can't be a lone wolf, you're part of a collaborative process that's bigger than yourself. I don't think RJ is a bad filmmaker. I think the films over which he had total control, like Looper or Knives Out, are proof positive that he's actually a really terrific talent. And it's for that reason that in spite of TLJ I'm still looking forward to the trilogy of SW films that he's supposed to be making; I can't wait to see what he comes up with when he has control over the whole canvas of a trilogy. But I do still think that involving him in the sequel trilogy was a mistake. Despite any weaknesses in TFA, it laid seeds for the next two films. TROS feels (to me) like the fulfillment of those promises, which TLJ completely ignored.
|
|
|
Post by relativetime on Dec 30, 2019 1:15:47 GMT
I just honestly can't imagine seeing TLJ and thinking that about Johnson. He leaves the space wide open for new storytelling by the end of the film, and then Abrams doesn't pick up on those threads. Personally, at least, I think the idea of not having the Emperor/Vader dynamic anymore would have been really interesting. So did Johnson. But then Abrams just literally brought the actual Emperor back, with no explanation, and did a bunch of RotJ scenes again, despite everything. To be clear: I don't hate TLJ. There are a few things in it that I actually quite like -- including the Luke storyline that has become a focal point for a lot of the moaning about it. But between the (needlessly) butt-busting runtime, and a number of other story choices, it just doesn't add up to a great deal for me. I don't hate it, I just find it very firmly middle-of-the-road, and would rank it somewhere near the lower middle of the pack in terms of all the SW films to date. What I was getting at though, was the production process and specifically how it seems like Johnson is just not suited to be part of projects that he isn't personally in charge of. By all accounts that I've read, Johnson's approach to the story was not at all collaborative. Rather, he came at it as 'this is the movie I want to do, and I don't care what happened Part 1.' My understanding is that he already had his story for TLJ scripted before they were even done hashing out the story for TFA. He had access to the dailies to TFA, which were used to make small tweaks so that TLJ wasn't completely an island, but it was just the story he wanted regardless of whatever else was going on in the trilogy. To me, that is absolutely the wrong way to come at one of these movies. When you're building a trilogy, you can't be a lone wolf, you're part of a collaborative process that's bigger than yourself. I don't think RJ is a bad filmmaker. I think the films over which he had total control, like Looper or Knives Out, are proof positive that he's actually a really terrific talent. And it's for that reason that in spite of TLJ I'm still looking forward to the trilogy of SW films that he's supposed to be making; I can't wait to see what he comes up with when he has control over the whole canvas of a trilogy. But I do still think that involving him in the sequel trilogy was a mistake. Despite any weaknesses in TFA, it laid seeds for the next two films. TROS feels (to me) like the fulfillment of those promises, which TLJ completely ignored. I disagree with the idea that TLJ somehow doesn’t gel well with TFA - on the contrary, I think it’s absolutely a great sequel that takes many of the threads presented in TFA and goes in an unexpected but logical direction. He provides answers to many of the questions Abrams set up in TFA - it’s just that a vocal subsection of Star Wars fans didn’t like what answers he gave us. I do not like this idea of placing the blame for the trilogy’s disjointed feeling on Johnson’s shoulders - Abrams deserves just as much if not more blame. Abrams had the chance here to tie everything together but instead he spent most of his movie rushing through the eighth film he would have liked to tell and because the entire movie spends its runtime trying to reset up the mystery boxes we’ve already opened, barely anything of substance is actually explored. From my point of view, it’s Abrams that can’t work well with other people.
|
|
|
Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 30, 2019 2:08:25 GMT
To be clear: I don't hate TLJ. There are a few things in it that I actually quite like -- including the Luke storyline that has become a focal point for a lot of the moaning about it. But between the (needlessly) butt-busting runtime, and a number of other story choices, it just doesn't add up to a great deal for me. I don't hate it, I just find it very firmly middle-of-the-road, and would rank it somewhere near the lower middle of the pack in terms of all the SW films to date. What I was getting at though, was the production process and specifically how it seems like Johnson is just not suited to be part of projects that he isn't personally in charge of. By all accounts that I've read, Johnson's approach to the story was not at all collaborative. Rather, he came at it as 'this is the movie I want to do, and I don't care what happened Part 1.' My understanding is that he already had his story for TLJ scripted before they were even done hashing out the story for TFA. He had access to the dailies to TFA, which were used to make small tweaks so that TLJ wasn't completely an island, but it was just the story he wanted regardless of whatever else was going on in the trilogy. To me, that is absolutely the wrong way to come at one of these movies. When you're building a trilogy, you can't be a lone wolf, you're part of a collaborative process that's bigger than yourself. I don't think RJ is a bad filmmaker. I think the films over which he had total control, like Looper or Knives Out, are proof positive that he's actually a really terrific talent. And it's for that reason that in spite of TLJ I'm still looking forward to the trilogy of SW films that he's supposed to be making; I can't wait to see what he comes up with when he has control over the whole canvas of a trilogy. But I do still think that involving him in the sequel trilogy was a mistake. Despite any weaknesses in TFA, it laid seeds for the next two films. TROS feels (to me) like the fulfillment of those promises, which TLJ completely ignored. I disagree with the idea that TLJ somehow doesn’t gel well with TFA - on the contrary, I think it’s absolutely a great sequel that takes many of the threads presented in TFA and goes in an unexpected but logical direction. He provides answers to many of the questions Abrams set up in TFA - it’s just that a vocal subsection of Star Wars fans didn’t like what answers he gave us. I do not like this idea of placing the blame for the trilogy’s disjointed feeling on Johnson’s shoulders - Abrams deserves just as much if not more blame. Abrams had the chance here to tie everything together but instead he spent most of his movie rushing through the eighth film he would have liked to tell and because the entire movie spends its runtime trying to reset up the mystery boxes we’ve already opened, barely anything of substance is actually explored. From my point of view, it’s Abrams that can’t work well with other people. In large part I agree with that. The Last Jedi moved the franchise forward while very much following up on what came right before it. Pretty much every interesting idea put forward in The Last Jedi is promptly undone in The Rise of Skywalker. And honestly, if I wanted to watch a warmed over rehash of The Return of the Jedi, I would just go and watch The Return of the Jedi. And I really, really dislike The Return of the Jedi.
|
|
|
Post by Timelord007 on Dec 30, 2019 9:25:16 GMT
Last Jedi was the beginning of the end, i loathe & detest that movie, only good thing was when my cousin jokingly brought me blu ray to wind me up & i smashed it to bits with a bat infront of him.
I'm ignoring this trilogy & sticking to Manderlorian & Kenobi for my future Star Wars fix.
|
|
lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,811
|
Post by lidar2 on Dec 30, 2019 9:28:25 GMT
I thought episode IX was a great movie. Not necessarily a great Star Wars movie, but a great movie. First off my wife and daughter, who are not SW fans enjoyed it, so that alone tells me it h as a popular appeal beyond SW fans. Given where he was starting from, I think JJ produced about as good a film as he could have that ticked as many of the boxes as he could have. There was a lot happening, perhaps too much, and there was definitely one cameo too many in there Han Solo I haven't followed all the behind the scenes news but if, as others have said above, Disney started a new trilogy without having an overall plan but were instead operating on a "make it up as you go along" basis, then that was a VERY stupid thing to do and we are lucky it turned out as well as it did. I personally think that TLJ was the SW equivalent of The Deadly Assassin. Something that is a good story/movie in its own right but initially hated by fans because it overturns some of their preconceptions.
|
|
|
Post by project37 on Dec 30, 2019 9:36:32 GMT
but among "thinking" viewers, it seems that no one likes this movies That is an incredibly obnoxious thing to say. I'm an old dude (mid-40s) and it's a drag to see what's happened to fandoms I've enjoyed (comic books, Doctor Who, Star Wars). I have no problem being critical, but the vitriol, anger, and entitlement that comes with a lot of commentary posing as "critique" can be loud and overwhelming. For some reason, this attitude isn't limited to creators; it's also directed at fellow fans - i.e., "only a brain-dead idiot would think this is any good." I rarely want to engage anymore, because it's just not fun. I really thought this place was better than that. For what it's worth, I had a great time! My parents took me to Star Wars as my first movie, so there were all kinds of feelings in being able to take my own kids to the saga's finale 40+ years later. Fair enough if you didn't like it, but it's a shame that you can't help but insult me just because I did.
|
|
lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,811
|
Post by lidar2 on Dec 30, 2019 9:45:41 GMT
It was following Force Awakens that I started to back off on this franchise. I have a copy of Last Jedi somewhere but I've never watched it. I was put off by changes in showrunners. The whole "Too Many Cooks" thing. Complain legitimately about elements of the Prequel Trilogy, Lucas was still steering that ship. After Disney takes over, one movie goes one way, the next another, and the final one has to backpedal, retcon and all that... It seems like they tried to hide this by moving RoS along so fast that one doesn't stop to think, and apparently, that worked, (if you actually believe the Rotten Tomatoes Audience Score),, but among "thinking" viewers, it seems that no one likes this movie, and since I fall into that category, I would rather not see it. I'm not sure if you're being tongue in cheek or incredibly pompous when you describe yourself that way? Anyway regardless of your intent, I read it as tongue in cheek and had a chuckle to myself
|
|
lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,811
|
Post by lidar2 on Dec 30, 2019 9:56:49 GMT
it would have been better for JJ to have done all 3. He could have paced it much better with two films to expand on what feels like two films of story and action in Rise Of Skywalker. He wouldn't, to use your terms, have to spin so many plates at once. I don't believe for a second the writing off of Snoke or indeed a lot of the narrative here would be the same, remotely, if JJ had done all three. I think Mark Kermode summed it up well - this now feels like a trilogy without a part 2. Mr Sunday Movies/Daily Planet podcast also made an interesting point, that it still feels like the crawl is Abram's Part 2, with this a sequel to that more than it is The Last Jedi. Agree 100%. I think this is fundamentally where the sequel trilogy went wrong - a SW trilogy needs a coherence of vision that this one didn't have with the result that the overall trilogy is les than the sum of its parts
|
|
|
Post by Tim Bradley on Dec 30, 2019 10:50:56 GMT
I'm going to see 'The Rise of Skywalker' today! I hope to have a good time watching it at the cinema. I'll share my thoughts on the movie later on. Tim.
|
|
|
Post by Timelord007 on Dec 30, 2019 11:12:12 GMT
I'm going to see 'The Rise of Skywalker' today! I hope to have a good time watching it at the cinema. I'll share my thoughts on the movie later on. Tim. Arrrgghhh don't do it my friend save yourself 140 minutes of torture lol. Look out for Rey who's now the Jedi Jesus of Star Wars.
|
|
|
Post by Tim Bradley on Dec 30, 2019 11:34:07 GMT
I'm going to see 'The Rise of Skywalker' today! I hope to have a good time watching it at the cinema. I'll share my thoughts on the movie later on. Tim. Arrrgghhh don't do it my friend save yourself 140 minutes of torture lol. Look out for Rey who's now the Jedi Jesus of Star Wars. Timelord! Are you denying Tim Bradley the right to review this movie?
You wouldn't do that to me, would you?
Tim.
|
|
|
Post by Timelord007 on Dec 30, 2019 14:30:23 GMT
Arrrgghhh don't do it my friend save yourself 140 minutes of torture lol. Look out for Rey who's now the Jedi Jesus of Star Wars. Timelord! Are you denying Tim Bradley the right to review this movie?
You wouldn't do that to me, would you?
Tim. No I'm purely attempting to save you from disappointment my friend, once seen can never be unseen lol. I look forward to a future review by you my friend you know i see you as part of my family.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 14:53:42 GMT
Arrrgghhh don't do it my friend save yourself 140 minutes of torture lol. Look out for Rey who's now the Jedi Jesus of Star Wars. Timelord! Are you denying Tim Bradley the right to review this movie?
You wouldn't do that to me, would you?
Tim. Take Timelord's advice! I haven't seen it yet, but I'm being coerced into going with some friends this week.
|
|