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Post by tuigirl on Feb 22, 2020 10:24:45 GMT
That interview actually puts me in mind of Star Wars and Star Trek fans, rather than Doctor Who fans. EDIT: I feel that perhaps I should clarify here that I'm a huge fan of all three, so that wasn't intended as me throwing shade at anyone in particular. Just an observation of fandoms that I participate in. I think the issue is that there always have been fans who are taking the franchise (and I am not specifying here which) much too seriously. For some people, it is like a religion. I remember that when I was looking for fan clubs to join at a city I was living in, that there was a Star Trek fanclub which was run like a military organisation and people attended meetings in uniform. You even addressed the leader as "Captain". Even their appearances at conventions was more like a boot camp than anything resembling "fun". I am opposed to this type of organisation in any form, I am just a person who does not feel good when boxed in in such a way. It actually scared me a little. So although I am a huge Trekkie, I kept well away and joined a more chaotic non-hierarchal general scifi as well as a informal Doctor Who group.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 16:14:23 GMT
I actually think that's massively reductive in light of some reasoned and well argued points being made and far from being very apt is almost completely irrelevant in the context of what we're actually talking about here regarding Stranded. It's apples and oranges. And honestly I don't think it's relevant about the new series threads either since most, almost all, of the posts about every new episode have been positive and of the opinion S12 has been terrific. We're all Doctor Who fans and I'd like to think rather open to ideas because of it. Saying because we have a trepidation because of one aspect of the show's past being used again we're stuck in the idealised past, or akin to Whizzkid? Because one thing in 20 years of listening (one!) makes us go "Not sure I like that idea..."? That's nonsense, sorry. Graham and Tom were talking about making the future of the show for a mass audience. We're clearly not. Doctor Who's success or failure doesn't hinge on Stranded. Remember there was also a time, not that long ago when Tom was just as likely to say "No, been there...done that", a la Eccleston, when the subject of Who came up. Was he also just living for his own idealised past by refusing to embrace a new future for years? MASSIVE difference between thinking the show should be preserved in amber during your own favourite era and thinking "actually, The Curator...that's one little thing that was perfect as it was and I got everything I need from it". Doesn't make us Who-luddites. Rather condescending to say "You people who don't like this idea or the new series? You're like Whizz Kid" - a cartoonish geek parody. No offence intended to yourself or anyone else on these threads, davy. More an observation as to wider fandom on issues such as these, whereby the programme makers are more concerned at what they can do to move things forward and actively avoid online 'feedback' or forum discussions. This forum is great, as discussion is constructive and always seeking positives. Maybe I should have worded it more carefully so as not to suggest that we have been guilty of the obsessive, indignant sense of 'this is not how I want my show to be like' that goes on elsewhere. For myself I was amused in recognising some of my personal thoughts, and remain as always horrified that some fans feel it is necessary to communicate their opinions to the makers, like a shopping list of changes that they expect to be implemented. To be fair though, Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr Who - fans have had a bad rep for decades due to a vocal minority, and I speak from the inside looking out, not vice versa. It just seemed a good place to drop it for thoughts. Imagine how Stephen King must feel each time a 'number one fan' approaches him to discuss 'Misery'....
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Post by dangerwillrobinson on Feb 23, 2020 22:14:58 GMT
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Post by constonks on Feb 23, 2020 22:53:00 GMT
I was hoping they'd go in that direction with Tania/Rebecca - seems like it'd be a missed opportunity not to, especially with the very "down-to-Earth current year" setting.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,811
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 24, 2020 10:53:10 GMT
Interesting how Stranded is referred to as canonical
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Post by number13 on Feb 24, 2020 11:48:41 GMT
Interesting how Stranded is referred to as canonical Of course BF is canon! Good to see other people realising that too.
Slightly off-topic but maybe worth noting that Tania won't be BF's first trans character or even the first to have a relationship with an established Companion (reading between a few lines of the article and guessing with regards to 'Stranded' , I'll admit.) 'The Seventh Doctor Adventures' did this first and it's a great set of inventive stories with Seven, Roz and Chris, well worth hearing and a release which deserves to be better known than maybe it is. (Then we might get a Vol 2 !)
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 24, 2020 11:52:44 GMT
Interesting how Stranded is referred to as canonical Of course BF is canon! Good to see other people realising that too.
Slightly off-topic but maybe worth noting that Tania won't be BF's first trans character or even the first to have a relationship with an established Companion (reading between a few lines of the article and guessing with regards to 'Stranded' , I'll admit.) 'The Seventh Doctor Adventures' did this first and it's a great set of inventive stories with Seven, Roz and Chris, well worth hearing and a release which deserves to be better known than maybe it is. (Then we might get a Vol 2 !)
So I guess the big question for now is, will it be Liv or Helen?
(Funny, I always thought BF intended them for each other)
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Post by number13 on Feb 24, 2020 12:04:56 GMT
Of course BF is canon! Good to see other people realising that too.
Slightly off-topic but maybe worth noting that Tania won't be BF's first trans character or even the first to have a relationship with an established Companion (reading between a few lines of the article and guessing with regards to 'Stranded' , I'll admit.) 'The Seventh Doctor Adventures' did this first and it's a great set of inventive stories with Seven, Roz and Chris, well worth hearing and a release which deserves to be better known than maybe it is. (Then we might get a Vol 2 !)
So I guess the big question for now is, will it be Liv or Helen?
(Funny, I always thought BF intended them for each other)
Personally I was almost certain one or both were going to be killed by the Master, so I've given up guessing what BF intend! (I'm still allowed informed speculation 'cause that doesn't count as guessing, does it? )
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 24, 2020 13:04:25 GMT
I reckon it’s going to be Helen. Although I’d rather it was neither of them because Liv and Helen belong together.
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Post by elkawho on Feb 24, 2020 14:41:13 GMT
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why don't we see close, intimate friendships between women in fiction that are not romantic or sexual in nature anymore? Or that fans wish were romantic. It's a pet peeve of mine. Most women (straight or gay) have very meaningful and important friendships with other women that never stray into the romantic. These friendships are extremely complex, important and very common, yet as soon as two women get close in a fictional story people automatically think it's a romantic relationship. Is this just how male writers see women? I have to say as a woman and a fan I miss seeing these kind of complex relationships. This is one of the reasons I loved ATA Girl. Yes, there was a romance going on in one story, but for the most part they were women that worked and relied on each other in incredibly stressful situations and developed an intimacy with each other that people outside of that situation could never understand.
I find the idea of Liv and Helen becoming romantic much less interesting and more limiting than the two of them having a close, intimate friendship.
Addendum (and afterthought): That's one of the great things about the Constance/Flip relationship. Two very different women traveling with the Doctor who have developed a wonderful friendship and closeness that was completely unexpected. I miss those two, and I'm glad we'll be getting them back soon.
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Post by constonks on Feb 24, 2020 15:17:59 GMT
I too will say I never read Liv and Helen as romantic but the "so what?" line that Rebecca Root mentions sure sounds like Liv to me.
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Post by mark687 on Feb 24, 2020 15:18:19 GMT
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why don't we see close, intimate friendships between women in fiction that are not romantic or sexual in nature anymore? Or that fans wish were romantic. It's a pet peeve of mine. Most women (straight or gay) have very meaningful and important friendships with other women that never stray into the romantic. These friendships are extremely complex, important and very common, yet as soon as two women get close in a fictional story people automatically think it's a romantic relationship. Is this just how male writers see women? I have to say as a woman and a fan I miss seeing these kind of complex relationships. This is one of the reasons I loved ATA Girl. Yes, there was a romance going on in one story, but for the most part they were women that worked and relied on each other in incredibly stressful situations and developed an intimacy with each other that people outside of that situation could never understand. I find the idea of Liv and Helen becoming romantic much less interesting and more limiting than the two of them having a close, intimate friendship. Addendum (and afterthought): That's one of the great things about the Constance/Flip relationship. Two very different women traveling with the Doctor who have developed a wonderful friendship and closeness that was completely unexpected. I miss those two, and I'm glad we'll be getting them back soon. Agree 100% Regards mark687
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Post by fingersmash on Feb 24, 2020 15:34:03 GMT
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why don't we see close, intimate friendships between women in fiction that are not romantic or sexual in nature anymore? Or that fans wish were romantic. It's a pet peeve of mine. Most women (straight or gay) have very meaningful and important friendships with other women that never stray into the romantic. These friendships are extremely complex, important and very common, yet as soon as two women get close in a fictional story people automatically think it's a romantic relationship. Is this just how male writers see women? I have to say as a woman and a fan I miss seeing these kind of complex relationships. This is one of the reasons I loved ATA Girl. Yes, there was a romance going on in one story, but for the most part they were women that worked and relied on each other in incredibly stressful situations and developed an intimacy with each other that people outside of that situation could never understand. I find the idea of Liv and Helen becoming romantic much less interesting and more limiting than the two of them having a close, intimate friendship. Addendum (and afterthought): That's one of the great things about the Constance/Flip relationship. Two very different women traveling with the Doctor who have developed a wonderful friendship and closeness that was completely unexpected. I miss those two, and I'm glad we'll be getting them back soon. This! This! All of this! I'd even extend it to human interpersonal relationships in general. As an asexual man, it's nearly impossible for me to find almost anything where the main interpersonal relationship is friendship rather than romance and when that happens, it's often siblings instead of friends. I see no problem in romance but when I only get romance, it's infuriating. It's why I generally can't stand Doctor/Companion ships. Sometimes people are just incredibly close friends and the friendship is cheapened when you try to make them romantic partners. With that rant out of the way: A trans woman on the team! It shouldn't feel revolutionary but it sadly is. I hope this trend of new premises for companions continues. Straight, white, cis, young women from the UK are not the only "best of the best" as the Doctor so frequently puts it. Bring on the LGBTQ+ companions, bring on the male companions, bring on the aliens you could only do on audio companions, bring on the disabled companions (who are not "fixed"). I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Doctor can and should be taking on anyone they think deserving of the spot in the TARDIS if there's a vacancy. It's time to redefine the companion role in general.
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Post by elkawho on Feb 24, 2020 16:01:04 GMT
With that rant out of the way: A trans woman on the team! It shouldn't feel revolutionary but it sadly is. I hope this trend of new premises for companions continues. Straight, white, cis, young women from the UK are not the only "best of the best" as the Doctor so frequently puts it. Bring on the LGBTQ+ companions, bring on the male companions, bring on the aliens you could only do on audio companions, bring on the disabled companions (who are not "fixed"). I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Doctor can and should be taking on anyone they think deserving of the spot in the TARDIS if there's a vacancy. It's time to redefine the companion role in general. Yes yes yes!! I love all of this.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 24, 2020 16:48:17 GMT
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why don't we see close, intimate friendships between women in fiction that are not romantic or sexual in nature anymore? Or that fans wish were romantic. It's a pet peeve of mine. Most women (straight or gay) have very meaningful and important friendships with other women that never stray into the romantic. These friendships are extremely complex, important and very common, yet as soon as two women get close in a fictional story people automatically think it's a romantic relationship. Is this just how male writers see women? I have to say as a woman and a fan I miss seeing these kind of complex relationships. This is one of the reasons I loved ATA Girl. Yes, there was a romance going on in one story, but for the most part they were women that worked and relied on each other in incredibly stressful situations and developed an intimacy with each other that people outside of that situation could never understand. I find the idea of Liv and Helen becoming romantic much less interesting and more limiting than the two of them having a close, intimate friendship. Addendum (and afterthought): That's one of the great things about the Constance/Flip relationship. Two very different women traveling with the Doctor who have developed a wonderful friendship and closeness that was completely unexpected. I miss those two, and I'm glad we'll be getting them back soon. Ref the highlighted comment, I think it's a tad unfair. I honestly don't think it's a case of anyone making blanket assumptions about any two women who happen to get close - just that there seems to be something between these two particular characters who happen to be female. I'm not - and I don't think anyone else on this forum is - going around posting about romantic relationships between Flip and Constance, Tegan and Nyssa, Peri and Erimem, Ace and Benny, Leela and Romana, Nyssa and Hannah, Vienna and whatshername, etc, which you would expect if we thought two women travelling together and/or getting close inevitably meant a romantic relationship was developing.
Some see potential romantic feelings in the relationship, other don't. We could have the same debate about Jamie and Victoria or Avon and Cally in Blake's 7.
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Post by fingersmash on Feb 24, 2020 18:08:31 GMT
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Why don't we see close, intimate friendships between women in fiction that are not romantic or sexual in nature anymore? Or that fans wish were romantic. It's a pet peeve of mine. Most women (straight or gay) have very meaningful and important friendships with other women that never stray into the romantic. These friendships are extremely complex, important and very common, yet as soon as two women get close in a fictional story people automatically think it's a romantic relationship. Is this just how male writers see women? I have to say as a woman and a fan I miss seeing these kind of complex relationships. This is one of the reasons I loved ATA Girl. Yes, there was a romance going on in one story, but for the most part they were women that worked and relied on each other in incredibly stressful situations and developed an intimacy with each other that people outside of that situation could never understand. I find the idea of Liv and Helen becoming romantic much less interesting and more limiting than the two of them having a close, intimate friendship. Addendum (and afterthought): That's one of the great things about the Constance/Flip relationship. Two very different women traveling with the Doctor who have developed a wonderful friendship and closeness that was completely unexpected. I miss those two, and I'm glad we'll be getting them back soon. Ref the highlighted comment, I think it's a tad unfair. I honestly don't think it's a case of anyone making blanket assumptions about any two women who happen to get close - just that there seems to be something between these two particular characters who happen to be female. I'm not - and I don't think anyone else on this forum is - going around posting about romantic relationships between Flip and Constance, Tegan and Nyssa, Peri and Erimem, Ace and Benny, Leela and Romana, Nyssa and Hannah, Vienna and whatshername, etc, which you would expect if we thought two women travelling together and/or getting close inevitably meant a romantic relationship was developing.
Some see potential romantic feelings in the relationship, other don't. We could have the same debate about Jamie and Victoria or Avon and Cally in Blake's 7.
I've seen plenty shipping of Tegan and Nyssa, Peri and Erimem, Ace and Benny, and especially Leela and Romana in the fandom. I'm sure if we dug deep enough we'd find some for Flip and Constance too. I think elka's point was that from the very beginning people were shipping Liv and Helen rather than paying attention to their friendship and that's a genuine shame because despite my boredom with this team, it genuinely shines when it doubles down on the idea of being three best friends traveling time and space.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 24, 2020 19:14:02 GMT
Ref the highlighted comment, I think it's a tad unfair. I honestly don't think it's a case of anyone making blanket assumptions about any two women who happen to get close - just that there seems to be something between these two particular characters who happen to be female. I'm not - and I don't think anyone else on this forum is - going around posting about romantic relationships between Flip and Constance, Tegan and Nyssa, Peri and Erimem, Ace and Benny, Leela and Romana, Nyssa and Hannah, Vienna and whatshername, etc, which you would expect if we thought two women travelling together and/or getting close inevitably meant a romantic relationship was developing.
Some see potential romantic feelings in the relationship, other don't. We could have the same debate about Jamie and Victoria or Avon and Cally in Blake's 7.
I've seen plenty shipping of Tegan and Nyssa, Peri and Erimem, Ace and Benny, and especially Leela and Romana in the fandom. I'm sure if we dug deep enough we'd find some for Flip and Constance too. I think elka's point was that from the very beginning people were shipping Liv and Helen rather than paying attention to their friendship and that's a genuine shame because despite my boredom with this team, it genuinely shines when it doubles down on the idea of being three best friends traveling time and space. I am not into fanfic or other fan forums, so I personally have never come across the shipping of other female characters that you mention. I have no doubt however that what you say is correct and there is pkenty of it about. Some people's minds work that way, each to their own. But I just object to being characterised as someone who thinks like that about any female characters who become close, just because in this one instance I thought, maybe wrongly as it turns out, that BF were heading in a particular direction with these 2 (female) characters.
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Post by fingersmash on Feb 24, 2020 20:03:18 GMT
I've seen plenty shipping of Tegan and Nyssa, Peri and Erimem, Ace and Benny, and especially Leela and Romana in the fandom. I'm sure if we dug deep enough we'd find some for Flip and Constance too. I think elka's point was that from the very beginning people were shipping Liv and Helen rather than paying attention to their friendship and that's a genuine shame because despite my boredom with this team, it genuinely shines when it doubles down on the idea of being three best friends traveling time and space. I am not into fanfic or other fan forums, so I personally have never come across the shipping of other female characters that you mention. I have no doubt however that what you say is correct and there is pkenty of it about. Some people's minds work that way, each to their own. But I just object to being characterised as someone who thinks like that about any female characters who become close, just because in this one instance I thought, maybe wrongly as it turns out, that BF were heading in a particular direction with these 2 (female) characters. And that's fair enough. And I think a lot of it is on Big Finish in some implication that they were going to end up together.
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Post by elkawho on Feb 25, 2020 1:55:33 GMT
I've seen plenty shipping of Tegan and Nyssa, Peri and Erimem, Ace and Benny, and especially Leela and Romana in the fandom. I'm sure if we dug deep enough we'd find some for Flip and Constance too. I think elka's point was that from the very beginning people were shipping Liv and Helen rather than paying attention to their friendship and that's a genuine shame because despite my boredom with this team, it genuinely shines when it doubles down on the idea of being three best friends traveling time and space. I am not into fanfic or other fan forums, so I personally have never come across the shipping of other female characters that you mention. I have no doubt however that what you say is correct and there is pkenty of it about. Some people's minds work that way, each to their own. But I just object to being characterised as someone who thinks like that about any female characters who become close, just because in this one instance I thought, maybe wrongly as it turns out, that BF were heading in a particular direction with these 2 (female) characters. I'm sorry if you thought I was singling you out lidar2. That's wasn't my intention. You were not the only one making those comments, and I've seen them on this forum in the past as well. It was more a general comment about the trend. It isn't just in Doctor Who, either. I am not a reader of fanfic because I do not like the "shipping" mentality. (Or even the word. Ugh.) I am not averse to a love story or a romantic comedy, but there are so many varied relationships that 2 characters can have. I just never understood the need for fandom to create romantic relationships between characters, or the fact that most (but not all) of these are same sex relationships. And it seems lately that these fanfic type of relationships are popping up in canon in some places. One that irks me (and isn't same sex) is the Spock/Uhura relationship in the new Star Trek movies. One of many things that has completely ruined them for me. I really enjoy the friendship between Helen and Liv. Yes, if BF decided to take them in a romantic direction, so be it. I was just hoping they wouldn't. And I hope they make it worth it! Not put those two together because they can.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2020 3:01:06 GMT
I am not into fanfic or other fan forums, so I personally have never come across the shipping of other female characters that you mention. I have no doubt however that what you say is correct and there is pkenty of it about. Some people's minds work that way, each to their own. But I just object to being characterised as someone who thinks like that about any female characters who become close, just because in this one instance I thought, maybe wrongly as it turns out, that BF were heading in a particular direction with these 2 (female) characters. I'm sorry if you thought I was singling you out lidar2 . That's wasn't my intention. You were not the only one making those comments, and I've seen them on this forum in the past as well. It was more a general comment about the trend. It isn't just in Doctor Who, either. I am not a reader of fanfic because I do not like the "shipping" mentality. (Or even the word. Ugh.) I am not averse to a love story or a romantic comedy, but there are so many varied relationships that 2 characters can have. I just never understood the need for fandom to create romantic relationships between characters, or the fact that most (but not all) of these are same sex relationships. And it seems lately that these fanfic type of relationships are popping up in canon in some places. One that irks me (and isn't same sex) is the Spock/Uhura relationship in the new Star Trek movies. One of many things that has completely ruined them for me. I really enjoy the friendship between Helen and Liv. Yes, if BF decided to take them in a romantic direction, so be it. I was just hoping they wouldn't. And I hope they make it worth it! Not put those two together because they can. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but you have to consider the age demographic that the stereotype stems from. It's usually men, women and other in their teens, exploring an uncomfortable topic through a comfortable medium. A form of emotional therapy and method for expression. A safe space to explore those thoughts and emotions. Granted, there are exceptions. It doesn't matter if you're 14 or 41, if you've been writing for a year, then you are a 1-year-old writer. The only way to gain experience in writing is... by writing and Romance is an enormous genre at the moment. I think the crucial flaw that a lot of these stories stumble into is the belief that the romance is the absolute baseline. From whence all springs. With no deviation or exception. Real world relationships don't work like that, there's a layer of preexisting dynamics and discourse beneath it. Something that led to that connection in the first place. It's why Ian and Barbara work so well, they are friends first and a couple second. To borrow the Bechdel Test and turn it sideways: is your couple able to have a conversation about anything else other than being a couple? If so, go to Page 47. If not, return to Page 2.
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