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Post by mark687 on Jan 5, 2020 20:46:52 GMT
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Post by doctorkernow on Jan 5, 2020 20:53:35 GMT
Hello again.
Ok, thanks to those who have helped answer my Master question. I have more questions, sorry. How did Missy survive being zapped by John Simm's Master and escape from the Cybership? Or is it a case of "I'm indestructible, surely the whole Universe knows that!" Any thoughts?
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Post by obluda on Jan 5, 2020 20:56:39 GMT
Overall I enjoyed these episodes alot more than I thought I would, this season looks like it's going to be alot better than last season.
I disliked Dhawan's performance as The Master last episode so was pleasantly surprised that he was brilliant in this one. He was genuinely menacing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 21:17:58 GMT
I'm mostly satisfied with what we got and again it leaves enough to keep us guessing on what's really going/gone on but as drama I thought it was very sloppy. I sighed when the "Gallifrey is destroyed...again" reveal happened, in an era that has blatantly copied much of RTD's approach that seemed a retcon and a half. However The Master's hologram message gave me more hope - that the mystery of what the founders did is more important than the destruction itself. I joked on the thread for Part One that for all we know the series is building to Rassilon and Omega coming back and then.....well, it seems that more ancient sect of Timelord pioneers are indeed coming into play. Sacha was fantastic as The Master. He's got a quiet fury here and I think the worries about any panto histrionics can be put to one side. What isn't quite clear is why he specifically wanted to kill The Doctor so much...if he is post-Missy I would have expected something like "We were getting friendly the last body I saw you in" wheras Chibnall just stuck to the "we were friends as kids and went different ways.." thing. I need more on that, or on Sacha's placement in the chronology, to be able to really comment but it still feels like The Master is an evil genius because that's the way Chibnall remembers him, more than being faithful to where the character was when seen last. Again, I don't want to dwell on that too much as there's room for it to be tidied up later. The actual mystery of the race of invaders was a bit of a damp squib after a nice build. So they're really just generic aliens who could just as easily have been..I dunno...the Boneless from Series 8 who The Master tries to manipulate. Lenny Henry played his part well here but it was very Who-by-numbers in the end, the "I'll betray the human race because the aliens say I'll be sorted". It's never been done better than Tobias Vaughan but this was an OK attempt. Impossibly lazy that much of the way The Doctor fixes things is done off screen. Love the companions actually challenging The Doctor on who she is. It's almost like Chibnall has heard my prayers in giving her some depth again as the show has been too "story of the week" for the era with the dynamic not really evolving among the Doctor and crew, with many eps interchangeable in running order affecting the story little. I think Chibnall has recognised you can be accessable and still have a stronger narrative arc. In an age where people have followed two dozen films to get to the Endgame with The Avengers, I think people want arcs, development and growth. We didn't get much last year but have had more already in this two parter. Ada and Noor didn't really get much to do but the idea of just some kids googling them and reading about them is great and really goes back to the Sidney Newman days. Ada meeting the 4th Doc last year wasn't really contradicted either so those that worry about BF being erased needn't. Jodie didn't have a "I've always wanted to meet you..." moment that said she'd never seen Ada before. Not recognising her after thousands of years from The Doctor's POV is fine. "These are the dark times. But they don't sustain. Darkness never sustains..even though sometimes it feels like it might." - that's a rather clunky statement from The Doctor as written and I'm not sure Chibbers can write "speeches" for the Doctor like RTD or Moffat did but it's a welcome message these days . Saying "contact" was a bit of fun referencing but it seemed a bit odd it being two separate Timelords in separate locations. Seems that would have come in handy a lot of other times if they can do it! How many adventures would have been easier for Tom's Doc and Romana just using "contact"? I always thought it was just a Timelord with their own selves, in close proximity but hey. It's plot convenience either way. I imagine large swathes of viewers will think "contact" is nicking Rey and Kylo Ren's bond from Star Wars more than referencing classic Who anyway. Speaking of references, Blink is a biggie with the pre-recorded message talking back to Graham, and oddly The Master having to be captured then arrive at the alien base the long way round sans TARDIS was very Curse Of Fatal Death with Jonathan Pryce taking decades to get out the sewer. The rather large "Well, I fixed the plane as it was being built and put a shutdown in the devices 18 months ago" was also very fatal death. We just needed a bribed architect. So, overall, it was fine. The setup of Gallifrey being destroyed could be a horrendous retcon or something fascinating depending on where it goes by season end and what the Timeless Child is all about. I'm open to it for the moment, for sure. The actual story itself here was a bit of a mess though. The Master-Doctor stuff, the countdown to Lenny Henry's launch party and the companions on the run didn't really feel like it was all tied together much. And I do like The Master now being in a "Well, how am I getting out of this one?" ending. Always works for me!
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jan 5, 2020 21:21:52 GMT
How did Missy survive being zapped by John Simm's Master and escape from the Cybership? Who's to say she did? This isn't necessarily the incarnation directly following her, there could easily be one or more in between them. (And, if has been suggested, Chinbal doesn't much like the Mofffat take on things, we might easily never find out for sure).
However, as "The Missy Chronicles" has a story where 13 thwarts her anonymously, I personally would guess that Missy lived to fight another day, and perhaps so did Simm.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 21:24:45 GMT
Hello again. Ok, thanks to those who have helped answer my Master question. I have more questions, sorry. How did Missy survive being zapped by John Simm's Master and escape from the Cybership? Or is it a case of "I'm indestructible, surely the whole Universe knows that!" Any thoughts? If Chibnall doesn't reference this being explicity a post-Missy Master I'm honestly going with him being pre-Missy myself. The Master being 100% toast then coming back is fine, happened loads, but from an on screen character POV as an audience member I don't care for it to just be "I hate The Doctor again.." which is only satisfying if a) it's pre-Missy or b) there's a reason better than Chibnall just wants an evil Master because that's what he grew up with.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 5, 2020 21:27:54 GMT
Hello again. Ok, thanks to those who have helped answer my Master question. I have more questions, sorry. How did Missy survive being zapped by John Simm's Master and escape from the Cybership? Or is it a case of "I'm indestructible, surely the whole Universe knows that!" Any thoughts? If Chibnall doesn't reference this being explicity a post-Missy Master I'm honestly going with him being pre-Missy myself. The Master being 100% toast then coming back is fine, happened loads, but from an on screen character POV as an audience member I don't care for it to just be "I hate The Doctor again.." which is only satisfying if a) it's pre-Missy or b) there's a reason better than Chibnall just wants an evil Master because that's what he grew up with. I’m assuming atm that’s it’s learning whatever the terrible truth about the Timeless Child is that sparked the Master’s return to evil.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 21:39:28 GMT
If Chibnall doesn't reference this being explicity a post-Missy Master I'm honestly going with him being pre-Missy myself. The Master being 100% toast then coming back is fine, happened loads, but from an on screen character POV as an audience member I don't care for it to just be "I hate The Doctor again.." which is only satisfying if a) it's pre-Missy or b) there's a reason better than Chibnall just wants an evil Master because that's what he grew up with. I’m assuming atm that’s it’s learning whatever the terrible truth about the Timeless Child is that sparked the Master’s return to evil. Which, again, fair enough if so but doing something really interesting with a character then to just revert the next time round...it really does just seem "retconny". It's almost like Chibnall is trying to do a soft reboot - Gallifrey gone and an evil Master. Sure there can be interesting enough reasons for it potentially but a snarling "I'm going to kill The Doctor" Master just seems..a bit passe after the last 6 years. The Master could still have been evil but not hellbent on killing The Doctor, for one. Just something a bit different from his almost perpetual M.O. before Missy. As I said in my OP on the subject though we've still clearly got more to come so I won't be too definitive and I'm open to it still being subverted, and Sacha played the part so well, all snarling rage more than madman, that more of him will be welcomed. For context for the character's development and for the performance. Jodie has been at her best in the part when faced with a threat in her face - the Eiffel tower here with Sacha (they should have flown down!) or confronting The Dalek last year. She's certainly getting a bit more to sink her teeth into. I still want more from her (or rather Chibnall to give it to her) but the companions questioning her and Jodie essentially shutting them out with a wikipedia answer to who she is gives me hope there will be tension and drama to come, something I think is needed.
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Post by mark687 on Jan 5, 2020 21:53:28 GMT
Interesting but valid comment
Benji Clifford @la_bonj · 20m20 minutes ago
How can you do sound for a AAA television programme and not research what kind of air raid sirens they had in WW2 Paris?!
I know there are a lot of people critising nitpicky things but this really is my ballpark and it took me less than 2 minutes to find a correct 1940s French siren that is available for licence. No negativity in these comments, just my job 🤷🏻♂️
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 21:59:15 GMT
So, the Master lived through 1940s - 2020 & didn't help out his other incarnations?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 22:01:02 GMT
Interesting but valid comment Benji Clifford @la_bonj · 20m20 minutes ago How can you do sound for a AAA television programme and not research what kind of air raid sirens they had in WW2 Paris?! I know there are a lot of people critising nitpicky things but this really is my ballpark and it took me less than 2 minutes to find a correct 1940s French siren that is available for licence. No negativity in these comments, just my job 🤷🏻♂️ Regards mark687 Oh, does anyone really care?
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Post by mark687 on Jan 5, 2020 22:01:50 GMT
So, the Master lived through 1940s - 2020 & didn't help out his other incarnations? Again "preserving History when its all a lie"! Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 22:03:13 GMT
*spoiler free comment*
Another enjoyable episode which really begs the question : why didn't we get this sort of storytelling during the whole of series 11? Kudos to Sacha Dhewan for giving us a dangerously psychotic Master rather than an OTT panto villain (I'm with Davy on hoping Dhewan's Master is pre-Missy) and much to my surprise (and if I'm honest my delight), kudos to Chibnall for undoing a decision by Moffat which undid a decision by RTD (at least until the next showrunner undoes Chibnall's decision which undoes Moffat's decision which undid..oh you get the idea..)
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Post by mark687 on Jan 5, 2020 22:04:15 GMT
Now for a Lol reaction to this weeks twist
Regards
mark687
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Post by shallacatop on Jan 5, 2020 22:08:18 GMT
I think my biggest criticism is it’s a story of two halves that doesn’t really feel like each aspect is entirely substantial: The Master plot and the Barton plot. They do crossover to some extent, but it’s ultimately rather tenuous.
Still, there’s a lot to like about it and it’s an enjoyable bit of viewing. I liked the decision to push the story into a different direction with the time travelling and I felt it was a good decision to have a change of director to sell that. The Doctor’s interaction with Ada & Noor was good and I liked the trio. I liked Graham, Ryan & Yaz being completely separated from the Doctor and all of them beginning to realise they don’t know much about her. The Master was unhinged and actually quite unnerving, I really like Sacha’s take on the character.
I’m not overly interested in the arc, specifically Gallifrey’s founders and the Timeless Child, as we’ve been there and done that. I did think The Master’s reaction was very interesting, though, and I can’t wait to see where that goes.
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Post by stcoop on Jan 5, 2020 22:19:46 GMT
It is impressive just how quickly Chibnall has thrown the show in reverse and retreated from stand-alone stories accessible to everyone and back to arc-heavy stories for which you need to have been watching for decades to get every reference. (And I think we also know out of RTD and Moffat, which one he prefers.)
But why would the Master be angry at some dark secret from the Time Lord's past. Surely it would make him like them more?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 22:27:10 GMT
It is impressive just how quickly Chibnall has thrown the show in reverse and retreated from stand-alone stories accessible to everyone and back to arc-heavy stories for which you need to have been watching for decades to get every reference. (And I think we also know out of RTD and Moffat, which one he prefers.) But why would the Master be angry at some dark secret from the Time Lord's past. Surely it would make him like them more? He hasn't "thrown the show in reverse and retreated" from anything. The first season was standalone, this one isn't. He never claimed that he would stick to stand alone stories throughout his time as showrunner. & this is only episode 2, we do not know how arc heavy this season will be yet. You may "need to have been watching the show for decades to get every reference" but they are not essential plot points, just bonuses for the fans. So it is "accessible to everyone". Again, this is only episode 2, we do not know how arc heavy this season will be yet. As for the dark secret? I'll wait until it is revealed.
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Post by antartiks on Jan 5, 2020 22:33:02 GMT
So, the Master lived through 1940s - 2020 & didn't help out his other incarnations? Who's to say he didn't vote for Saxon in 2007 ?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 22:37:59 GMT
So, the Master lived through 1940s - 2020 & didn't help out his other incarnations? Who's to say he didn't vote for Saxon in 2007 ? Haha! So the O Master was turned into the Saxon Master along with everyone else in The End of Time?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 22:40:13 GMT
So, the Master lived through 1940s - 2020 & didn't help out his other incarnations? Who's to say he didn't vote for Saxon in 2007 ? Oh, in 2025 or so we'll have a series of boxsets from BF with exactly what Sacha's Master was up to for all those years, I'm sure.
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