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Post by mark687 on Feb 10, 2020 15:19:01 GMT
Hello again. Just read this brilliant explanation for that uncomfortable scene between Graham and the Doctor. Doc Oho has been one of my favourite reviewers for years. "Oh Brilliant: I’ve heard some grumblings online about how the final scene between Graham and the Doctor is played and I think there is something far more profound going on than an amusing (or insulting) scene between the Doctor and one of his companions. This isn’t the Doctor refusing to comfort somebody who is opening up to her. Because that would be a pretty awful thing to do. This is somebody who doesn’t know how to react to the horrible, personal truth that is being spelled out to her. Trust me, as somebody who has battled with mental health problems and somebody who has worked in mental health, I have both been the Doctor in this scene and experienced her awkward silence. That’s the point of the episode, I think. Can you hear me? Do you want me to say it again? Someone is trying to explain their fears and anxieties…and sometimes you just don’t know what to say, or you’re not equipped to give an appropriate answer and so just make some awkward excuse to extradite yourself from the situation. It’s worth remembering that the Doctor is an alien from the planet Gallifrey and not a social worker from Barnsley. Yes, she makes big grandstanding speeches about humanity because it is easy to step in a make sweeping generalisations about things but when one person is looking you square in the eye and opening up about their doubts, in a beautifully flawed way she simply doesn’t have the answers. That feels very real to me because I’ve seen it." docohobigfinish.blogspot.com/2020/02/can-you-hear-me-written-by-charlene.html?m=1Valid expect "Never Cruel Never Cowardly" and yet the sequence as played is arguable both. Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 17:13:33 GMT
I blooming love Yaz. Have I mentioned that? The unspectacularly delivered revelation about her this week makes her even more appealing to me, bless her.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 17:16:40 GMT
Hello again. Just read this brilliant explanation for that uncomfortable scene between Graham and the Doctor. Doc Oho has been one of my favourite reviewers for years. "Oh Brilliant: I’ve heard some grumblings online about how the final scene between Graham and the Doctor is played and I think there is something far more profound going on than an amusing (or insulting) scene between the Doctor and one of his companions. This isn’t the Doctor refusing to comfort somebody who is opening up to her. Because that would be a pretty awful thing to do. This is somebody who doesn’t know how to react to the horrible, personal truth that is being spelled out to her. Trust me, as somebody who has battled with mental health problems and somebody who has worked in mental health, I have both been the Doctor in this scene and experienced her awkward silence. That’s the point of the episode, I think. Can you hear me? Do you want me to say it again? Someone is trying to explain their fears and anxieties…and sometimes you just don’t know what to say, or you’re not equipped to give an appropriate answer and so just make some awkward excuse to extradite yourself from the situation. It’s worth remembering that the Doctor is an alien from the planet Gallifrey and not a social worker from Barnsley. Yes, she makes big grandstanding speeches about humanity because it is easy to step in a make sweeping generalisations about things but when one person is looking you square in the eye and opening up about their doubts, in a beautifully flawed way she simply doesn’t have the answers. That feels very real to me because I’ve seen it." docohobigfinish.blogspot.com/2020/02/can-you-hear-me-written-by-charlene.html?m=1Valid expect "Never Cruel Never Cowardly" and yet the sequence as played is arguable both. Regards mark687 I would argue that sometimes there is no right thing to say when faced with that conversation, even for someone like the Doctor. As for "never cruel never cowardly" I think 12 consistently goes against that mantra.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 17:57:54 GMT
Behind the scenes video.
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Post by barnabaslives on Feb 10, 2020 18:10:38 GMT
Totally enjoyed that. I thought the sets and CGI for Allepo were stunning and gave it a welcome splash of historical, and the different threads somehow seemed better woven together than last episode. It really drew me in and along for the ride this week. I like that the human elements seem better balanced with the sci-fi and adventure this season somehow and less like diversions from one another. Last season it was a little more like "What? They're just sitting down and having this conversation right in the middle of...?" Saw the twist coming a mile away - always check someone's record before you spring them from prison, lol - but some formidable baddies there, particularly Ian Gelder. I could easily have bought him as the Black Guardian and I was pleasantly surprised by the Toymaker reference because I'd kind of been reminded of that by his going on about how immortals amuse themselves. Great special effects all the way through (except maybe the monsters so I'm kind of glad we didn't see that much of them) and I thought the detachable fingers were a rather good effect. The animated sequence was the last thing I was expecting but that was pretty cool too. Things seemed to wrap up a little too quick, but I think it was like some Big Finish stories where the writer is really putting a lot into it but there just isn't time for that and a more protracted resolution too. This probably could have been a two-parter easily, but I think it worked out really well for not being being one. Another top-notch episode like most of this season, hooray!
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Post by mark687 on Feb 10, 2020 19:48:06 GMT
Valid expect "Never Cruel Never Cowardly" and yet the sequence as played is arguable both. Regards mark687 I would argue that sometimes there is no right thing to say when faced with that conversation, even for someone like the Doctor. As for "never cruel never cowardly" I think 12 consistently goes against that mantra. Counter point in regards to 12 in Season 8 he's actually trying to find himself 13 seems comfortable in sudden "Social Awkwardness" Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 19:57:04 GMT
I would argue that sometimes there is no right thing to say when faced with that conversation, even for someone like the Doctor. As for "never cruel never cowardly" I think 12 consistently goes against that mantra. Counter point in regards to 12 in Season 8 he's actually trying to find himself 13 seems comfortable in "Social Awkwardness" Regards mark687 12 seems to be trying to find himself all through his run, a more nasty spiteful & hypocritical Doctor you could never hope to meet!
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Post by timegirl on Feb 10, 2020 20:06:43 GMT
Counter point in regards to 12 in Season 8 he's actually trying to find himself 13 seems comfortable in "Social Awkwardness" Regards mark687 12 seems to be trying to find himself all through his run, a more nasty spiteful & hypocritical Doctor you could never hope to meet! That’s not really fair to his incarnation🙁12 is far more complex than you say. No, he wasn’t perfect but he knew that and he always tried to make the effort. Yes, he was damaged inside, didn’t always understand humans and made mistakes but he always tried to do the right thing. I understand he’s not everyone’s favorite (and that’s okay everyone should have their own opinions🙂) but it saddens me how much people demonize and misunderstand him😢
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Post by mark687 on Feb 10, 2020 20:07:49 GMT
Counter point in regards to 12 in Season 8 he's actually trying to find himself 13 seems comfortable in "Social Awkwardness" Regards mark687 12 seems to be trying to find himself all through his run, a more nasty spiteful & hypocritical Doctor you could never hope to meet! Agree to Disagree Regards mark687
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Post by Tim Bradley on Feb 10, 2020 20:32:07 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 21:09:23 GMT
12 seems to be trying to find himself all through his run, a more nasty spiteful & hypocritical Doctor you could never hope to meet! That’s not really fair to his incarnation🙁12 is far more complex than you say. No, he wasn’t perfect but he knew that and he always tried to make the effort. Yes, he was damaged inside, didn’t always understand humans and made mistakes but he always tried to do the right thing. I understand he’s not everyone’s favorite (and that’s okay everyone should have their own opinions🙂) but it saddens me how much people demonize and misunderstand him😢 Oh well, to be honest I haven't gone back to his era but I recall him being rude & downright insensitive to people. A far cry from the predominantly empathetic 13.
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Post by tuigirl on Feb 10, 2020 21:16:09 GMT
That’s not really fair to his incarnation🙁12 is far more complex than you say. No, he wasn’t perfect but he knew that and he always tried to make the effort. Yes, he was damaged inside, didn’t always understand humans and made mistakes but he always tried to do the right thing. I understand he’s not everyone’s favorite (and that’s okay everyone should have their own opinions🙂) but it saddens me how much people demonize and misunderstand him😢 Oh well, to be honest I haven't gone back to his era but I recall him being rude & downright insensitive to people. A far cry from the predominantly empathetic 13. In series 8, yes. In series 10- no, not really. But it could be worse, I guess- it could be Sixie trying to strangle his companion....
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Post by tuigirl on Feb 10, 2020 21:22:16 GMT
Hello again. Hmm... I think our 13th Doctor has been really rattled by recent events. First the Master, Gallifrey gone, Jack's message and RuthDoctor... she has a lot to think about. She has lost some of her initial sparkle and joie de vivre. It's still there, but there is more of that inner steel. Plain-speaking, knowing that Graham has lost so much already, she owes it to him not to fob him off with platitudes. Unless, she knows Graham is really on borrowed time. I don't know, this series feels very different in the relationships between Doctor and her crew. There is a strange dissonance that I can't quite put my finger on. There are mysteries hounding the Doctor and she can't rest until she has the answers... Although I did read your quote from Doc Oho and see where you and he are coming from...
I also have been feeling this dissonance you mention all this series long. For me it just somehow feels off. Not even Sixie and Peri bickering created this feeling in me.
I can be quite awkward in these situations, and I would also have made some tone-deaf remarks like the Doctor did... but I do not think I would have just hand-waved it away like they did with the Doctor here. From your quote I think I understand what they were going for... but it misses the mark by a mile. This was not right, it felt REALLY off for me.
The Doctor is thousands of years old, this is just not what I expect as a reaction. Liv Chenka would have chewed the Doctor's ear off for that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 21:24:59 GMT
Really enjoyed that! Finally all three companions get fleshed out in character development (Mandip's performance was standout), humans face their fears and save the day (just how big is the TARDIS jacuzzi by the way?) and if Zellin and Rakaya ultimately turned out to not be the Black and White Guardians..(and bang goes my pet theory for the big villains of the series...) it was still a delight to get a name check for them, the Eternals and the Celestial Toymaker.
Now, the scene with the Doctor and Graham..isn't the awkwardness of the conversation the whole point? For me at least it was uncomfortably grounded in reality. How many of us have been in that situation of having a friend or loved one express their fears whilst seeking reassurance...and badly fumbled our response? *raises hand*. 😞
And let's not forget that of all the people Graham could have sought reassurance from he turned to a two thousand year old extraterrestrial with a long history and an even longer track record of not understanding human social graces..
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Post by tuigirl on Feb 10, 2020 21:28:59 GMT
Well, all in all, I really liked this.
I have never been the biggest fan of the Elder Gods, and I was more like "urg, so this is what they are going for" when the reveal came.
Otherwise, I really appreciate the episode for the message. And I liked the quieter moments, the slower pace and all that emotional ground work. I liked all the background stories we got this time. Why could we not have gotten stuff like this last series? Setting, atmosphere, CGI, choice of location- all this fitted well together and looked great.
However, as a negative points, I also did not like the Doctor's reaction at the end, that was more like a WTF? moment for me. This was jarring.
Otherwise, I have to agree with everybody that series 12 is much more consistently good than series 11. They really upped their game. This is entertaining, enjoyable, emotional and gives the right messages.
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Post by timegirl on Feb 10, 2020 21:30:04 GMT
That’s not really fair to his incarnation🙁12 is far more complex than you say. No, he wasn’t perfect but he knew that and he always tried to make the effort. Yes, he was damaged inside, didn’t always understand humans and made mistakes but he always tried to do the right thing. I understand he’s not everyone’s favorite (and that’s okay everyone should have their own opinions🙂) but it saddens me how much people demonize and misunderstand him😢 Oh well, to be honest I haven't gone back to his era but I recall him being rude & downright insensitive to people. A far cry from the predominantly empathetic 13. You should try rewatching some of his episodes sometime 🙂 See if you like his character any better at a second glance🤔 😊
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Feb 10, 2020 22:25:45 GMT
Another very strong, if maybe a little too brisk, episode. Lots to like. Elder Gods name checking other Elder Gods. Detachable, floating fingers is a really creepy image. The Doctor being played...which is kind of a running current through this series...and then proving just how clever she is. Character development for the TARDIS crew. Yaz backstory! Rumblings from Ryan. Bradley Walsh being fantastic. I also kind of love that this Doctor invites everyone and anyone around into her TARDIS. Depression and mental health issues being dealt with in a way that isn't heavy-handed or over heated is greatly appreciated. Anyway. Here is hoping the momentum continues.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Feb 10, 2020 22:30:06 GMT
Oh well, to be honest I haven't gone back to his era but I recall him being rude & downright insensitive to people. A far cry from the predominantly empathetic 13. In series 8, yes. In series 10- no, not really. But it could be worse, I guess- it could be Sixie trying to strangle his companion.... Yeah, I don't want to derail but if the central question posed by 12 at the very start is "Am I a good man?' and everything that would follow is an exploration of that question. I do feel like 12's arc is much like 6's arc except guided by much better writers. Personally Capaldi is my favorite new series Doctor and a top three Doctor from the show's history. And now back to 13....
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Feb 10, 2020 22:49:39 GMT
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Post by timegirl on Feb 10, 2020 23:58:35 GMT
Can You Hear Me? was mostly amazing! 😀 I loved the character exploration with the companions backstories and fears! Loved that they brought back the eternals! The removable fingers in the ears were awesomely weird and disturbing!😱💀 I loved the animated sequence it was an ingenious bit of exposition and I would love it if they did more sequences like this!😀 I am wondering if the reference to the Toymaker is foreshadowing maybe a later reappearance of the toymaker in series 13🤔 The controversial scene of Graham trying to tell 13 about his fears about his cancer returning and her acting distant I’m wondering if it’s foreshadowing something. Maybe either 13 will have a delayed reaction and try to figure out a way to make sure the cancer won’t come back or what if (and yes this would be quite dark) what if during the finale Graham purposely volunteers himself to be converted into a Cyberman because of the promise of being free from illness after conversion meaning he would not have to worry about his cancer returning anymore. Overall it was brilliant😊 but I would prefer if it was a two parter so that a bit more time could be taken with the companions and the eternals🤔 But still one the best of Chibnall’s era!😀
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