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Post by number13 on Feb 11, 2020 0:12:36 GMT
In series 8, yes. In series 10- no, not really. But it could be worse, I guess- it could be Sixie trying to strangle his companion.... Yeah, I don't want to derail but if the central question posed by 12 at the very start is "Am I a good man?' and everything that would follow is an exploration of that question. I do feel like 12's arc is much like 6's arc except guided by much better writers. Personally Capaldi is my favorite new series Doctor and a top three Doctor from the show's history. And now back to 13.... Agree, Twelve went on a long journey from being Mr. 'she cares so I don't have to' with his 'emotional response' flashcards, to the Doctor who gave his regeneration energy and this life to buy a little more time for some humans facing Cyber-conversion. I thought Missy's final 'rehabilitation' and the Doctor's self-sacrifice mirrored each other beautifully, though neither of them knew it.
I rate the Capaldi Doctor exactly as you do, best new series Doctor, and top three overall (for me just after Jon and Tom in my all-time list.) We'll all have our favourite Doctors and they tend to endure over Time, so I was very surprised to discover a new Doctor to challenge the Classics. The new series continues to surprise and I'm loving this season.
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Post by timegirl on Feb 11, 2020 0:14:33 GMT
Yeah, I don't want to derail but if the central question posed by 12 at the very start is "Am I a good man?' and everything that would follow is an exploration of that question. I do feel like 12's arc is much like 6's arc except guided by much better writers. Personally Capaldi is my favorite new series Doctor and a top three Doctor from the show's history. And now back to 13.... Agree, Twelve went on a long journey from being Mr. 'she cares so I don't have to' with his 'emotional response' flashcards, to the Doctor who gave his regeneration energy and this life to buy a little more time for some humans facing Cyber-conversion. I thought Missy's final 'rehabilitation' and the Doctor's self-sacrifice mirrored each other beautifully, though neither of them knew it.
I rate the Capaldi Doctor exactly as you do, best new series Doctor, and top three overall (for me just after Jon and Tom in my all-time list.) We'll all have our favourite Doctors and they tend to endure over Time, so I was very surprised to discover a new Doctor to challenge the Classics. The new series continues to surprise and I'm loving this season.
I completely agree! One of the best story arches of any Doctor! 😀
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 0:32:32 GMT
I never think the "He was rude to people, unlikeable and obnoxious" thing stacks up as criticism with Capaldi's Doctor. Yeah - he knows that, it's entirely intentional in writing and performance . In his dying speech he literally says "Always try to be nice, but never fail to be kind." - so if you can't be friendly then at least make sure you're saving some lives! THAT'S The 12th Doctor to me. In Into The Dalek with the "He was dead already, I was saving us.." he's still saving the day, he's just not here to always have a laugh while doing it. I think that's in keeping with the notion Vastra put to Clara that Capaldi's Doctor felt comfortable enough to let the young man (in Matt) die so the old one, paradoxically, could be born. Just like this Doctor felt he didn't have to clown around, that he could resort to being - yeah - a bit of a grumpy older man. Especially with Bill, and with Missy's attempts at redemption, he did learn to drop a lot of the anger. He controlled his tempers and he got a love back for travel and adventure. Where did that get him? His new best friend killed/converted (as far as he knows) and his best frenemy betraying him one last time (again, as far as he knows). No wonder he didn't want to regenerate. That's where his new found optimism got him! For me Capaldi's era features the best acting of the new series Doctors (Matt at his heights pushes it close) with Moffat's ideas almost always massively strong if sometimes a bit lacking in the final execution (S9). In the pantheon of Doctors I think he's the best of any era though the nice thing is we don't need to choose. We can enjoy them all, whenever.
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Post by timegirl on Feb 11, 2020 1:00:45 GMT
I never think the "He was rude to people, unlikeable and obnoxious" thing stacks up as criticism with Capaldi's Doctor. Yeah - he knows that, it's entirely intentional in writing and performance . In his dying speech he literally says "Always try to be nice, but never fail to be kind." - so if you can't be friendly then at least make sure you're saving some lives! THAT'S The 12th Doctor to me. In Into The Dalek with the "He was dead already, I was saving us.." he's still saving the day, he's just not here to always have a laugh while doing it. I think that's in keeping with the notion Vastra put to Clara that Capaldi's Doctor felt comfortable enough to let the young man (in Matt) die so the old one, paradoxically, could be born. Just like this Doctor felt he didn't have to clown around, that he could resort to being - yeah - a bit of a grumpy older man. Especially with Bill, and with Missy's attempts at redemption, he did learn to drop a lot of the anger. He controlled his tempers and he got a love back for travel and adventure. Where did that get him? His new best friend killed/converted (as far as he knows) and his best frenemy betraying him one last time (again, as far as he knows). No wonder he didn't want to regenerate. That's where his new found optimism got him! For me Capaldi's era features the best acting of the new series Doctors (Matt at his heights pushes it close) with Moffat's ideas almost always massively strong if sometimes a bit lacking in the final execution (S9). In the pantheon of Doctors I think he's the best of any era though the nice thing is we don't need to choose. We can enjoy them all, whenever. Very well put!😀
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 11, 2020 1:29:16 GMT
Capaldi always came up to bat in his performances, and each series had its high points. However, I'd disagree on the arcs - they were fractured and didn't have enough focus until S10. 8 and 9 had some great stuff - didn't commit or stick to landing. Which actually segues into my expanded thoughts on Hear Me: James clearly gets the show, and in many ways, this is very much the spiritual sequel to last series' Virgin-Moffat hybrid Takes You Away, a cosmic horror exploration of guilt, doubt and mental health issues. Talking about anxieties, depression and trauma to a young-intended audience is no easy feat, and I commend the episode for hammering home the point about the need to talk and seek help when you're in a bad spot. I didn't read the Graham chat as 13 being disengenious - in fact, her giving some big speech that patted Graham on the back would've been more condescending, then just letting him get it off his chest and just be able to air it, without giving some platitude. Sometimes, just letting someone get it out is the best solution in a tough situation (though it was a bit rushed through, so I see why some have that impression).
Moves at a good clip; Sullivan directs the hell out of the episode with lots of eerie atmosphere and low lighting and Gelder is another in a line of winning guest performances this series. I'm shocked more on here aren't talking about him - he's great, a quintessential Who villain performance. Smug, controlling and a little scene-nibbling, Gelder sells you on being, basically, the cosmic Boogeyman and he plays really well off Jodie - he has the villainy of Dyall, with the demented aloofness and childishness of Gough (yes, I grinned at the drops). Ashiley is good too, sort of this ethereal evil angel, but she doesn't get as much to work with. And yes, creepy fingers. There's one for future lists.
However, I did say it was close to being a gem, but did slip up and ends up being less impactful than Away was: Tahira takes up a good chunk of the story, and her big character change - facing her own monster - happens offscreen, which hurts the theme of the episode and leaves the climax as cheaper than it should be. While the time hopping gives the show a bigger sense of scope, I question if we needed Tahira and Alleppo, or if you could've folded that story into Tibo or even one of Yaz' family. Indeed, and I don't mean to play script doctor here, but I wish the Immortals had been defeated in ways which tied more meaningfully back into the fam and the supporting cast facing their demons. Instead, it's basically 'Phenomenal cosmic powers!--itty bitty living space!' which is fun, but less interesting and less useful of the theme.
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Post by agentten on Feb 11, 2020 4:17:02 GMT
My initial thoughts:
A bit rushed in the climax. The episode probably needed another three to five minutes of run time to pull it off, but given how much this episode did to expand our relationship with the companions, I'm forgiving of a slightly rushed climax, especially since the Doctor's confrontation still felt very Doctory.
Some really prime "behind the couch" moments of horror in this episode. Lovely sense of dread and the dream sequences were truly ominous. Emma Sullivan really killed it with the look and feel of this episode and there was some sharp editing that also impressed me. Some great music, too, which elevated all of the creepiest moments. I thought the villains in this episode were legitimately striking and memorable.
Interesting to hear about Earth's destruction again, if even for a few moments. Seemed like a deliberate reminder.
Intriguing that The Doctor's nightmare seems to be about the Timeless Child.
I really like how the arc of this era is lurking in the background of most episodes. It's adding a lot of narrative flavor and I've a feeling it's going to be even more satisfying to watch it play out over several years.
Season 11 worked well for me - I wrote on this forum about how much I enjoyed it, particularly the sense of fun. This season has hit a stride that's been even more enjoyable for me. I'm always excited when a new Who episode comes on and look forward to it all week, but there's a lot of extra spin on that excitement this season. It's hard to say where it will all go, but that thrill for new Who is a gift and I'm savoring it.
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Post by project37 on Feb 11, 2020 11:09:03 GMT
This is an important read from the team that advised the production staff on how to approach mental health within the context of the episode: This helped me understand something that wasn't 100% clear to me at first, namely with regards to Yaz: {Spoiler}I'm now looking at the whole flashback about Yaz not just running away, but ready to take her own life. The article helped me appreciate why the writers chose the route of being sensitive to the audience yet making the effort to convey how much Yaz was struggling and how one person willing to listen can make all the difference. The "anniversary" seemed like a strange thing, but perhaps it was a "birthday" of sorts - here's to the new beginning where life started in earnest.
It's such an incredibly tricky topic, but I respect and appreciate the effort to go for it, especially with one of the lead characters.
I know plenty of people can nit-pick this episode to pieces (and admittedly I was a bit confused at first), but my admiration for this production team went up even further. They are taking big important swings with a show that's now (in the general public's eye) 15 years old and doing so with today's audience in mind. We can always discuss which risks were more successful than others in this new era so far, but there's no denying that it's been a bold and ambitious (and adventurous!) reboot on many levels.
I said it earlier, but I'm going to repeat it again: I've been a fan since the 80s and this series is the most fun I've had with new Doctor Who in years.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 11, 2020 12:17:55 GMT
Oh I didn’t realise that some people didn’t pick up on the subtext regarding Yaz’s flashback. I did find it odd that no one was talking about it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 12:51:48 GMT
Definitely the new favourite. I'm a big fan of that ethereal strata that encompasses the Guardians, Eternals, Voyager and much else besides. Beings that embody many of the fundamental, intangible concepts that govern self-conscious thought. An awareness of good, evil, decay, balance, dreams and truth. Greater than even the Time Lords at their height of power and that takes some doing. Primordial. Quite dangerous. All concepts that human beings should be able to understand, but then you realise how small you are. Not discarded, not ignored, but genuinely unobserved by these leviathans as they squabble among themselves. That is the essence of cosmic horror, that sense of helplessness, and what better subject ties into that anxiety than the demons we conjure for ourselves?
The boundless stretches of our own minds. Cosmic, to us. Horrific, for only we ourselves know all that's there. Trapped without a means of expression as the Immortals leave their victims. It's a very clever story. Talking about a subject that's not easy to represent as the main focus of an adventure setting. There's a fullness to the characters on display here and it was nice to see a very New Adventures-style exploration of Team TARDIS's insecurities. I can definitely see the Gabriel and Tanith parallels from Falls the Shadow, but I'm definitely getting Dark City vibes as well. The notion that they've essentially walked into other people's lives and poured their own black ichor into their minds. The intrusive nature of their existence. And why? Sheer boredom. It's amusing.
If I've one criticism, in amongst all that rather splendid character exploration, it's that final scene with the Doctor and Graham. I'm hoping it's something that will be addressed in an upcoming episode, but as it stands, it felt a bit... odd. Out of character for the Thirteenth Doctor and the themes of the episode. We don't necessarily need to see that conversation, but I'd have liked the implication. Could even have tied it into the main title: As it stands, though, I think this was a fantastic success. Going forward, it's done twofold. Firstly, it's really cracked open the inner workings of the Doctor and her compaions. Lastly, Zellin and Rakaya should definitely be studied as the watermark for new villains. This was all really strong.
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Post by number13 on Feb 11, 2020 13:24:50 GMT
Oh I didn’t realise that some people didn’t pick up on the subtext regarding Yaz’s flashback. I did find it odd that no one was talking about it. I have to admit it passed right over my head too. At the time I read it as Yaz having once been so troubled that she simply wanted to escape - and trying to achieve it in a physical sense by leaving her family and home life behind and finding some space for herself - somewhere else, anywhere else.
That's sad enough in itself, and very puzzling too when all we've seen of Yaz before this episode suggested an adventurous young woman, sure about her future career and part of a strongly-tied family of three generations. So this Yaz backstory came out of nowhere and I don't think it had nearly enough time to develop in order to make fully the impact the production team intended (thanks to project37 for the post explaining it). On the other hand, because we already knew the relevant parts of the history of Graham and Grace, his internal struggles made sense on first viewing and without any further explanation. (I still think the Doctor's response to Graham was completely 'off' for her character.)
Knowing now what was intended reinforced what I already thought about this episode - an important theme, really well done at the end and a very good science fiction story too, but simply too much going on to give the mental health storylines the space they deserved, or to finish the science fiction adventure with more than a rushed flick of the sonic. I think it needed to be a two-parter to do all it was meant to do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 14:31:30 GMT
Oh I didn’t realise that some people didn’t pick up on the subtext regarding Yaz’s flashback. I did find it odd that no one was talking about it. I have to admit it passed right over my head too. At the time I read it as Yaz having once been so troubled that she simply wanted to escape - and trying to achieve it in a physical sense by leaving her family and home life behind and finding some space for herself - somewhere else, anywhere else.
That's sad enough in itself, and very puzzling too when all we've seen of Yaz before this episode suggested an adventurous young woman, sure about her future career and part of a strongly-tied family of three generations. So this Yaz backstory came out of nowhere and I don't think it had nearly enough time to develop in order to make fully the impact the production team intended (thanks to project37 for the post explaining it). On the other hand, because we already knew the relevant parts of the history of Graham and Grace, his internal struggles made sense on first viewing and without any further explanation. (I still think the Doctor's response to Graham was completely 'off' for her character.)
Knowing now what was intended reinforced what I already thought about this episode - an important theme, really well done at the end and a very good science fiction story too, but simply too much going on to give the mental health storylines the space they deserved, or to finish the science fiction adventure with more than a rushed flick of the sonic. I think it needed to be a two-parter to do all it was meant to do.
It'll be the one I'll be casting a vote for when they turn an eye to Target novelisations. On the upside, everything let out of the box here can be explored by other writers in the future. A lot of these concerns -- while dealt with temporarily in the interim -- feel like longterm undercurrents that will last the Doctor, Yaz, Graham and Ryan through to the end of their tenure.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 17:36:31 GMT
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Post by constonks on Feb 11, 2020 18:47:11 GMT
This helped me understand something that wasn't 100% clear to me at first, namely with regards to Yaz: {Spoiler}I'm now looking at the whole flashback about Yaz not just running away, but ready to take her own life. The article helped me appreciate why the writers chose the route of being sensitive to the audience yet making the effort to convey how much Yaz was struggling and how one person willing to listen can make all the difference. The "anniversary" seemed like a strange thing, but perhaps it was a "birthday" of sorts - here's to the new beginning where life started in earnest.
"She's worried you'll do something stupid" was enough for me to get the inference - but kept it ambiguous enough that she might just have been running. I did like the mental health theme throughout the episode - fit in nicely to the more standard "nightmares"/"worst fear" sci-fi story that you see all over the place.
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Post by tuigirl on Feb 11, 2020 19:41:26 GMT
Oh I didn’t realise that some people didn’t pick up on the subtext regarding Yaz’s flashback. I did find it odd that no one was talking about it. Nah I got it right away since it hit very close to home.... I also thought it was well done and well handled. As others have said above, for those of us who have experienced these things it was pretty clear that this was a near suicide and a survival anniversary party. But the expert way this was handled highlights it even more how off the behavior of the Doctor was. Thinking about it I agree that the behavior of the Doctor was not botched writing but probably foreshadowing something.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 0:15:33 GMT
Oh I didn’t realise that some people didn’t pick up on the subtext regarding Yaz’s flashback. I did find it odd that no one was talking about it. Nah I got it right away since it hit very close to home.... I also thought it was well done and well handled.As others have said above, for those of us who have experienced these things it was pretty clear that this was a near suicide and a survival anniversary party. But the expert way this was handled highlights it even more how off the behavior of the Doctor was. Thinking about it I agree that the behavior of the Doctor was not botched writing but probably foreshadowing something. Not alone there. The sad truth of the matter is that, in real life, it is invisible. Readers, you would be surprised (or maybe not so surprised) to learn how much young angst and bad behaviour stems from a desire not to be here anymore. It's an illness, so it's contradictory. It's a cry for help, a desperate cry for help, that your mind will not let you make. I suspect that the only reason that policewoman sat down and knew was because she'd been there herself. Reading me, would you think I'd been Yaz or the policewoman? I've been both. And I'm certain that not only are there others that have similar experiences, but there are a lot of us. A lot more than we think. We, as a society, are getting much better at discussing these sorts of issues openly. Past any preconceived shame, guilt or perception distorted by illness. It is vitally important we have these discussions, particularly in our media, because it can make someone's existence so much easier to come to grips with in the longterm. But it has to start with knowledge. Can You Hear Me? is a very good step in the right direction. It's not an easy topic, so the fact they were able to get so much of it (perhaps all of it) right, speaks volumes to the quality of the writing and care that's gone into the episode.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 12, 2020 13:01:37 GMT
I'm seeing a lot of stuff online that says Zellin and Rakaya are Eternals.
Are they Eternals though or just another Immortal pairing?
Considering Zellin references Eternals but doesnt say they are of the same race
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 12, 2020 13:03:11 GMT
I'm seeing a lot of stuff online that says Zellin and Rakaya are Eternals. Are they Eternals though or just another Immortal pairing? Considering Zellin references Eternals but doesnt say they are of the same race Yeah they're not eternals they’re just beings with similar origins.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 12, 2020 13:08:37 GMT
I'm seeing a lot of stuff online that says Zellin and Rakaya are Eternals. Are they Eternals though or just another Immortal pairing? Considering Zellin references Eternals but doesnt say they are of the same race Yeah they're not eternals they’re just beings with similar origins. I thought so
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Post by stcoop on Feb 12, 2020 15:01:50 GMT
The BBC have made an official statement in regard to the scene at the end.
“When Graham opened up to the Doctor about his fear of his cancer returning her response was never meant to be dismissive. The Doctor’s friend was scared, and we see her struggling to deal with the severity of the situation. The intention of the scene was to acknowledge how hard it can be to deal with conversations on this subject matter. When faced with these situations, people don’t always have the right words to say at the right time, and this can often lead to feelings of guilt. By showing the Doctor struggling to find the right words, the intention was to sympathise with all those who may have found themselves in a similar position.”
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Post by mark687 on Feb 12, 2020 15:17:05 GMT
The BBC have made an official statement in regard to the scene at the end. “When Graham opened up to the Doctor about his fear of his cancer returning her response was never meant to be dismissive. The Doctor’s friend was scared, and we see her struggling to deal with the severity of the situation. The intention of the scene was to acknowledge how hard it can be to deal with conversations on this subject matter. When faced with these situations, people don’t always have the right words to say at the right time, and this can often lead to feelings of guilt. By showing the Doctor struggling to find the right words, the intention was to sympathise with all those who may have found themselves in a similar position.” I actually think that's the wrong message when your viewing the situation through your "Hero" especially a long lived one. EDIT Apologies I said I'd refrain from commenting further on this aspect of the EP Regards mark687
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