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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 15:24:33 GMT
The BBC have made an official statement in regard to the scene at the end. “When Graham opened up to the Doctor about his fear of his cancer returning her response was never meant to be dismissive. The Doctor’s friend was scared, and we see her struggling to deal with the severity of the situation. The intention of the scene was to acknowledge how hard it can be to deal with conversations on this subject matter. When faced with these situations, people don’t always have the right words to say at the right time, and this can often lead to feelings of guilt. By showing the Doctor struggling to find the right words, the intention was to sympathise with all those who may have found themselves in a similar position.” I agree with the sentiment if the statement. But disagree with the fact they have had to release one.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 15:25:49 GMT
The BBC have made an official statement in regard to the scene at the end. “When Graham opened up to the Doctor about his fear of his cancer returning her response was never meant to be dismissive. The Doctor’s friend was scared, and we see her struggling to deal with the severity of the situation. The intention of the scene was to acknowledge how hard it can be to deal with conversations on this subject matter. When faced with these situations, people don’t always have the right words to say at the right time, and this can often lead to feelings of guilt. By showing the Doctor struggling to find the right words, the intention was to sympathise with all those who may have found themselves in a similar position.” I actually think that's the wrong message when your viewing the situation through your "Hero" especially a long lived one. Regards mark687 Taking that to its logical conclusion then the Doctor should never ever be shown to fail ever in any situation.
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Post by stcoop on Feb 12, 2020 15:33:18 GMT
People used to complain that the Doctor was too prefect and now complain that she's not perfect enough. You just can't win.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 15:35:46 GMT
The BBC have made an official statement in regard to the scene at the end. “When Graham opened up to the Doctor about his fear of his cancer returning her response was never meant to be dismissive. The Doctor’s friend was scared, and we see her struggling to deal with the severity of the situation. The intention of the scene was to acknowledge how hard it can be to deal with conversations on this subject matter. When faced with these situations, people don’t always have the right words to say at the right time, and this can often lead to feelings of guilt. By showing the Doctor struggling to find the right words, the intention was to sympathise with all those who may have found themselves in a similar position.” I actually think that's the wrong message when your viewing the situation through your "Hero" especially a long lived one. Regards mark687 This scene has certainly provoked discussion and that in itself is far from a bad thing. Consider the alternatives at The Doctor's disposal - she could have reassured Graham and told him everything would be fine, which would have been nice ofr his fictional character, but no help to viewers watching who may be facing a similar dilemma. Or she could have told him that, sadly, his future was bleak and that he should make the most of every day, which would have been terrible for the character and his fans, as well as for viewers watching who may be facing a similar dilemma. The alternative would to not hve addressed Graham's worries at all, which would have defeated the point of the story, considering Yaz and Ryan have addressed their problems.
Doctor Who will never cure cancer or depression, but at least it has got people talking about it.
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Post by mark687 on Feb 12, 2020 15:45:06 GMT
I actually think that's the wrong message when your viewing the situation through your "Hero" especially a long lived one. Regards mark687 This scene has certainly provoked discussion and that in itself is far from a bad thing. Consider the alternatives at The Doctor's disposal - she could have reassured Graham and told him everything would be fine, which would have been nice ofr his fictional character, but no help to viewers watching who may be facing a similar dilemma. Or she could have told him that, sadly, his future was bleak and that he should make the most of every day, which would have been terrible for the character and his fans, as well as for viewers watching who may be facing a similar dilemma. The alternative would to not hve addressed Graham's worries at all, which would have defeated the point of the story, considering Yaz and Ryan have addressed their problems.
Doctor Who will never cure cancer or depression, but at least it has got people talking about it.
"I Can't kmow everything but Live Life and make the most of every day" too on the nose. Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 15:48:14 GMT
I actually think that's the wrong message when your viewing the situation through your "Hero" especially a long lived one. Regards mark687 This scene has certainly provoked discussion and that in itself is far from a bad thing. Consider the alternatives at The Doctor's disposal - she could have reassured Graham and told him everything would be fine, which would have been nice ofr his fictional character, but no help to viewers watching who may be facing a similar dilemma. Or she could have told him that, sadly, his future was bleak and that he should make the most of every day, which would have been terrible for the character and his fans, as well as for viewers watching who may be facing a similar dilemma. The alternative would to not hve addressed Graham's worries at all, which would have defeated the point of the story, considering Yaz and Ryan have addressed their problems.
Doctor Who will never cure cancer or depression, but at least it has got people talking about it.
Exactly. This kind of conversation isn't easy for everyone, not everyone knows the right thing to say, even the Doctor. & that's OK. That seemed to be the message I took from it.
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Post by mark687 on Feb 12, 2020 15:55:27 GMT
This scene has certainly provoked discussion and that in itself is far from a bad thing. Consider the alternatives at The Doctor's disposal - she could have reassured Graham and told him everything would be fine, which would have been nice ofr his fictional character, but no help to viewers watching who may be facing a similar dilemma. Or she could have told him that, sadly, his future was bleak and that he should make the most of every day, which would have been terrible for the character and his fans, as well as for viewers watching who may be facing a similar dilemma. The alternative would to not hve addressed Graham's worries at all, which would have defeated the point of the story, considering Yaz and Ryan have addressed their problems.
Doctor Who will never cure cancer or depression, but at least it has got people talking about it.
Exactly. This kind of conversation isn't easy for everyone, not everyone knows the right thing to say, even the Doctor. & that's OK. That seemed to be the message I took from it. So why do the official apology then? I think the scene was ill judged not necessarily demanding of one, but now its compounded the situation mark687
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 15:59:35 GMT
Exactly. This kind of conversation isn't easy for everyone, not everyone knows the right thing to say, even the Doctor. & that's OK. That seemed to be the message I took from it. So why do the official apology then? I think the scene was ill judged not necessarily demanding of one, but now its compounded the situation mark687 They've done the apology because a significant number of people have complained. Doesn't mean those people are right. Being frank it just means they are too stupid to understand the very obvious point of that scene.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 12, 2020 16:05:29 GMT
So I was going to drop in when wolfie and number were discussing it, but I think the BBC statement gives me a more direct way to talk about it. As I said, I didn't read 13 as being dismissive or candid, but I can't blame people who may have come away with that. I do concede there could've been a better way to convey what they were going for (in death and anxiety, there are no easy answers), but I don't think the alternatives would've been better, and someone would've been upset by them. It' a very hard and deeply personal subject, after all.
1) 13 says everything will be fine/does big life-affirming speech - the episode would be accused of sugarcoating/being overly candid about mental health and not engaging with it in a useful or mature way. A worse Orphan 55 situation. 2) 13 promises to find a cure/get definite answers because she cares about Graham that much - nice sentiment, but tone-deaf to the max and destroys the entire episode. 3) 13 does give a more concrete 'here's the facts' answer - on paper, that would be the best one. Just take it head-on and don't mince words. Danger there is, aside from harmful triggers with audience members who are suffering and want some hope of help, is that this could be construed as overly bleak and unhelpful.
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Post by ollychops on Feb 12, 2020 16:07:53 GMT
Rewatching the scene, I don't hate it as much as I did on first viewing, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I understand why they didn't have the Doctor comfort him or be honest about his situation, but... I don't know. I don't know if it would be better if they had cut the episode off after their moment and left it more open-ended, because having that conversation and then the next minute having her being all excited as she suggests meeting Mary Shelley doesn't really work IMO. It makes it feel a little disjointed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 16:23:11 GMT
With the big C being raised again at this point in the drama, am I the only one getting the impression that it may be building into an exit for his character? Going out in glory before it gets him for good, or defeated by something so commonplace that the Dr cannot cure? The fact that we are heading for a Cyberman finale, with possible good/bad Cybermen raises the spectre of the Cyber Brig. Will we have a Cyber Graham? I think the controversy for many is that, if you are going to tackle reality issues in a fantasy/escapist drama, then it needs to be less clumsily written.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 16:51:45 GMT
With the big C being raised again at this point in the drama, am I the only one getting the impression that it may be building into an exit for his character? Going out in glory before it gets him for good, or defeated by something so commonplace that the Dr cannot cure? The fact that we are heading for a Cyberman finale, with possible good/bad Cybermen raises the spectre of the Cyber Brig. Will we have a Cyber Graham? I think the controversy for many is that, if you are going to tackle reality issues in a fantasy/escapist drama, then it needs to be less clumsily written. To be honest those alternatives sound really clumsy. I hope we don't see that happenning.
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Post by stcoop on Feb 12, 2020 17:35:00 GMT
Rewatching the scene, I don't hate it as much as I did on first viewing, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I understand why they didn't have the Doctor comfort him or be honest about his situation, but... I don't know. I don't know if it would be better if they had cut the episode off after their moment and left it more open-ended, because having that conversation and then the next minute having her being all excited as she suggests meeting Mary Shelley doesn't really work IMO. It makes it feel a little disjointed. As someone with a milder degree of Asperger's, it's clear to me that they've decided that the Doctor, in this incarnation at least, falls somewhere on the Autism Spectrum. (Whether that was the right thing to do, is a whole other discussion.) Her reaction of hurredly changing the subject from something she doesn't feel capable of dealing with is completly believable (and familiar) to me when viewed in that context.
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Post by tuigirl on Feb 12, 2020 17:42:48 GMT
Rewatching the scene, I don't hate it as much as I did on first viewing, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I understand why they didn't have the Doctor comfort him or be honest about his situation, but... I don't know. I don't know if it would be better if they had cut the episode off after their moment and left it more open-ended, because having that conversation and then the next minute having her being all excited as she suggests meeting Mary Shelley doesn't really work IMO. It makes it feel a little disjointed. As someone with a milder degree of Asperger's, it's clear to me that they've decided that the Doctor, in this incarnation at least, falls somewhere on the Autism Spectrum. (Whether that was the right thing to do, is a whole other discussion.) Her reaction of hurredly changing the subject from something she doesn't feel capable of dealing with is completly believable (and familiar) to me when viewed in that context. Hmm. You make a very good point.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 12, 2020 19:05:15 GMT
As someone with a milder degree of Asperger's, it's clear to me that they've decided that the Doctor, in this incarnation at least, falls somewhere on the Autism Spectrum. (Whether that was the right thing to do, is a whole other discussion.) Her reaction of hurredly changing the subject from something she doesn't feel capable of dealing with is completly believable (and familiar) to me when viewed in that context. Hmm. You make a very good point.
I recall a former member who made a similar observation of Capaldi during Series 9, citing things like the cards in Lake/Flood. There seems to have been a renewed focus on how the Doctor struggles to relate with others in recent years - maybe the idea is the new regeneration cycle changed some part of them, but how much is deliberate neuroatypical coding is hard to say.
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Post by tuigirl on Feb 12, 2020 19:29:51 GMT
Hmm. You make a very good point.
I recall a former member who made a similar observation of Capaldi during Series 9, citing things like the cards in Lake/Flood. There seems to have been a renewed focus on how the Doctor struggles to relate with others in recent years - maybe the idea is the new regeneration cycle changed some part of them, but how much is deliberate neuroatypical coding is hard to say. I think it is something the Doctor always has trouble with... not sure if it is a Time Lord thing or if it is part of why he left. He is different from the average. Big Finish has examples of this, too, just look at Scherzo or the Wormery where he describes his inability to experience love in the way others do.
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shutupbanks
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Post by shutupbanks on Feb 12, 2020 22:13:05 GMT
Hmm. You make a very good point.
I recall a former member who made a similar observation of Capaldi during Series 9, citing things like the cards in Lake/Flood. There seems to have been a renewed focus on how the Doctor struggles to relate with others in recent years - maybe the idea is the new regeneration cycle changed some part of them, but how much is deliberate neuroatypical coding is hard to say. The Tenth Doctor’s repeated “I’m so sorry” might add some credence to this.
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Post by randomcomments on Feb 13, 2020 0:50:27 GMT
Rewatching the scene, I don't hate it as much as I did on first viewing, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I understand why they didn't have the Doctor comfort him or be honest about his situation, but... I don't know. I don't know if it would be better if they had cut the episode off after their moment and left it more open-ended, because having that conversation and then the next minute having her being all excited as she suggests meeting Mary Shelley doesn't really work IMO. It makes it feel a little disjointed. As someone with a milder degree of Asperger's, it's clear to me that they've decided that the Doctor, in this incarnation at least, falls somewhere on the Autism Spectrum. (Whether that was the right thing to do, is a whole other discussion.) Her reaction of hurredly changing the subject from something she doesn't feel capable of dealing with is completly believable (and familiar) to me when viewed in that context. Honestly, she's one of the Doctors I (generally) get this vibe from the least, but that's interesting.
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Post by agentten on Feb 13, 2020 0:59:55 GMT
I didn't have a negative reaction the scene in question. I thought it was actually a good example of the Doctor being quite alien and that alieness was standing in to represent how hard it can be to communicate with people about the things they might feel they need to unburden themselves of. It reminded me of River's explanation of what it's like to be in love with The Doctor, someone from a different culture that spans the stars and time streams. The Doctor isn't human, and often doesn't think as a human does, and while I don't think that makes her less compassionate, I think it's a good allegory for how those moments sometimes go. It's hard to give someone who's scared and vulnerable exactly what they need when they need it. As someone who's had some serious medical scares, I've often felt that even my family has never really fully understood what I went through, and I don't bring it up much because the subject is usually changed. It's not because they don't care, rather it's that they do and it's painful to discuss.
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Post by mrperson on Feb 14, 2020 3:50:28 GMT
I didn't like it.
Super-rushed plot, name-dropping, then fix magically in 15 seconds (what was the plot? Super-beings show up, doc presses a button)......annnnnd time for some little character shorts
And the sonic now flies.
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