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Post by mrperson on Mar 4, 2020 20:54:12 GMT
also.... the Doctor is now canonically 10 million years old (vis a vie hoe long Gallifrey has had ultimate power in Trial of a Time Lord), maybe the Division rebranded in that time into the CIA.
Despite the bit in Trial, it doesn't make sense the Time Lord society is only 10 million years old. There is plenty of indication throughout the series that the Time Lords have been around a lot longer than that, including being involved in forcing the Racnoss into hiding at the beginning of the earth 4.5 billion years ago.
That's not a reason to assume that the Doctor is that old, as the Doctor hasn't had a life that is anything like linear in time. For that matter, the Time Lords relationship with linear time is more than a bit fuzzy.
I've definitely heard the phrase "a billion years of timelord society," and I thought it was from Rassilon in the End of Time eps.
I suppose that must have been a lie, too, but wouldn't anyone with matrix access be able to work out that the years didn't add up?
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Post by sherlock on Mar 4, 2020 20:58:58 GMT
11’s claim about not being able to make a Time Lord was wrong though, as the Silence quite clearly did make a Time Lord (and if you count The Diary of River Song Series 3, they didn’t stop at one).
I don't recall anything about the Silence giving River her regeneration energy. Just, stealing Amy's baby, training/brainwashing it, and putting it in a super suit.
Full context- DOCTOR: It doesn't make sense. You can't just cook yourself a Time Lord. VASTRA: Of course not. But you gave them one hell of a start, and they've been working very hard ever since. Vastra doesn’t elaborate on what the Silence have been doing to Melody precisely. So it’s possible the exposure to the Time Vortex during Melody’s conception was only the starting point, and that the Silence had to do more to give River Song the full range of Time Lord abilities.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 4, 2020 20:59:30 GMT
11’s claim about not being able to make a Time Lord was wrong though, as the Silence quite clearly did make a Time Lord (and if you count The Diary of River Song Series 3, they didn’t stop at one).
I don't recall anything about the Silence giving River her regeneration energy. Just, stealing Amy's baby, training/brainwashing it, and putting it in a super suit.
River's Regen energy was supposedly due to the fact she was conceived on the TARDIS, which itself was a call back to Power of the Daleks where "Renewal is part of the TARDIS" Regards mark687
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2020 21:12:14 GMT
Ah, how long is a Gallifreyan year? Anyone know?
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Post by mark687 on Mar 4, 2020 21:33:40 GMT
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Mar 4, 2020 21:38:04 GMT
This is HILARIOUS! Obviously they got smashed with emails etc asking about this HAHAHAHAH!
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Post by sherlock on Mar 4, 2020 21:41:27 GMT
This is HILARIOUS! Obviously they got smashed with emails etc asking about this HAHAHAHAH! DWM even included a request for a Hinchcliffe spin-off by Big Finish in the usual hidden bit of text amongst the copyright and disclaimer section.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 4, 2020 22:23:18 GMT
Well, this snowballed quickly. I'm not even sure what I can really add, save for I'm firmly on the davy/audio/xlob side of the fence with regards to the new origin. I don't think it dilutes Hartnell/One - everything he does is still because he wants to; he's still a rebllious misfit and we, once again, have no idea of the real truth. Oh, right, there was also an episode attached to this continuity flip. Well, it's alright. It's very alright, but the continuity does take center stage here. I've commented several times how hard S12 is cribbing Wilderness Who, and this one is just missing a co-writing credit by Gary Russell to complete it - is Chris just remaking his unused Big Finish pitches from the early 00s? Everything else does fall to the weyside as a result - the supporting cast don't do a whole lot; the Cyber-Lords are cool-looking but don't really offer much, and Ashad gets done dirty here. Probably Chris' best original villain since Solomon, and he gets taken out like a chump (maybe the diea is he's so fanatical he's lost common sense, but that wasn't transmitted well). The whole thing just fell under its weight, though its highlights did make that fall less painful.
As remarked before, Jodie and Sacha really are what's giving the whole thing so much more legitimacy and energy than it probably had otherwise. I've been a consistent supporter of Jodie's performances, but here we see a real fear and vulnerability that we haven't seen much of till now. She's stripped down, siolated and out of ehr depth. Meanwhile, Sacha's just having the time of his life - it's a miracle there's any scenery left. As fun as that is, however, like in Spyfall, he's at his best in the quieter moments - he just has this serptine quality to him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 23:59:51 GMT
Despite the bit in Trial, it doesn't make sense the Time Lord society is only 10 million years old. There is plenty of indication throughout the series that the Time Lords have been around a lot longer than that, including being involved in forcing the Racnoss into hiding at the beginning of the earth 4.5 billion years ago.
That's not a reason to assume that the Doctor is that old, as the Doctor hasn't had a life that is anything like linear in time. For that matter, the Time Lords relationship with linear time is more than a bit fuzzy.
I've definitely heard the phrase "a billion years of timelord society," and I thought it was from Rassilon in the End of Time eps.
I suppose that must have been a lie, too, but wouldn't anyone with matrix access be able to work out that the years didn't add up?
Figuring it out is one thing... Being allowed to actually say it on Gallifrey is another. As the Doctor says in The Nightmare Fair: "Typical of my people, they found something they couldn't understand and ran away from it." I think you can sum up their attitude with that scene from Casablanca where they shut down Rick's: I'm 100% onboard with the new mystery. I think this will be a delight to knit together, but I'm very curious about the central axis of it all. No, not necessarily Tecteun, although she's a big part of it, I'm talking about the Boundary. This great, big portal through space, time and possibly elsewhere (possibly the same places that Can You Hear Me?'s Zellin and Rakaya herald from). The Doctor -- with all her experience -- doesn't understand it and neither did a man who spent most of his life living next to it. Where'd it come from? Where does it go (backwards, forwards, sideways, all of the above)? Why did the Timeless Child come through it? Did anything else come through after the baby? 'Tis a very interesting series of questions to unravel.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Mar 5, 2020 6:12:33 GMT
The Infinity Doctors says it's the same as an Earth Year, though it is The Infinity Doctors.
A few thoughts in no particular order: Is this our first canonical confirmation that only Capitol dwellers are Time Lords and other Gallifreyans can't regenerate? Shabogans as the original "unevolved" Gallifreyans is an interesting take – other sources equate them with Invasion of Time's Outsiders which fits pretty well, though the Outsiders always seemed to me more "drop outs" than "oppressed underclass." The Timeless Child backstory fits flawlessly with Cold Fusion thus far – "An explorer like his father before him." Lungbarrow lines up less nicely, but it can be forced. It also fits with most of the TV show hints we've gotten – "Didn't we have trouble with the prototype," the child in the barn who seems to be an orphan, all the various Masterplan hints and odd details hinting at pre-Hartnell Doctors. Can we assume that the Time Lords didn't really grant the Doctor an extra regeneration cycle in Time of the Doctor and just provided "cover" for him exceeding the regeneration limit? Or did the High Council (including Rassilon at this point) not know? Backstory disguised as Ireland was a clever touch – very Faction Paradox in its presentation – though I wish we'd seen it in some context. (The Doctor says she's seen it, but when? The scenes in the previous episode seemed disconnected from the narrative.) This might be the most lore/"canon" heavy Doctor Who story we've had since The War Games.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 7:41:01 GMT
The Infinity Doctors says it's the same as an Earth Year, though it is The Infinity Doctors.
A few thoughts in no particular order: Is this our first canonical confirmation that only Capitol dwellers are Time Lords and other Gallifreyans can't regenerate? Shabogans as the original "unevolved" Gallifreyans is an interesting take – other sources equate them with Invasion of Time's Outsiders which fits pretty well, though the Outsiders always seemed to me more "drop outs" than "oppressed underclass." The Timeless Child backstory fits flawlessly with Cold Fusion thus far – "An explorer like his father before him." Lungbarrow lines up less nicely, but it can be forced. It also fits with most of the TV show hints we've gotten – "Didn't we have trouble with the prototype," the child in the barn who seems to be an orphan, all the various Masterplan hints and odd details hinting at pre-Hartnell Doctors. Can we assume that the Time Lords didn't really grant the Doctor an extra regeneration cycle in Time of the Doctor and just provided "cover" for him exceeding the regeneration limit? Or did the High Council (including Rassilon at this point) not know? Backstory disguised as Ireland was a clever touch – very Faction Paradox in its presentation – though I wish we'd seen it in some context. (The Doctor says she's seen it, but when? The scenes in the previous episode seemed disconnected from the narrative.) This might be the most lore/"canon" heavy Doctor Who story we've had since The War Games. I think it's our first explicit confirmation on television, yeah. We come close during Tom's years, The Invasion of Time seems to imply it during the Doctor's talk with Borusa: "People are dying out there. Men, women, Time Lords even, have died in that battle." I think it's a bit of both. After the assassination, when they're testing the rifle, Spandrell mentions having trouble with them within the Citadel as well as outside of it. I wonder if contemporary Gallifreyan language uses "Shobogan" in the same way modern English uses "Vandal"? A word that originally stood as the name of a people, that's been interpreted and reinterpreted over the centuries into a catch-all term for a counterculture/transgressive group. I've been thinking about The Time of the Doctor. There's a strong possibility that he has only twelve regenerations by the time of the First Doctor, but also... We've seen from the Simm!Master in Last of the Time Lords that you can deny regeneration. Choose to perish instead. If the Doctor thought he was at the end of his lifetimes, he might have surrendered to the impulse to die instead of regenerating. The extra burst of energy (needed or not) was essentially licence to allow him to go on. Not unlike what the Sisterhood did with Eight in The Night of the Doctor. *phew* Yeah... It's amazing what difference two extra faces make. I'm actually quietly delighted that we've got a bit more worldbuilding with Rassilon only on the periphery this time. I imagine his exhibits at the museum are like the Tutankhamen collection. Everyone wants to go see it and some poor desperate curator is always trying to pull visitors' attention to the Pandak displays or the preserved diaries of General Kopyion.
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Post by Timelord007 on Mar 5, 2020 7:43:56 GMT
One minor quibble, if the Doctor's regenerations are timeless how come he/she endures post traumatic regenerative disorder wouldn't it just be a natural change wihout side effects?
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Mar 5, 2020 7:51:38 GMT
The Infinity Doctors says it's the same as an Earth Year, though it is The Infinity Doctors.
A few thoughts in no particular order: Is this our first canonical confirmation that only Capitol dwellers are Time Lords and other Gallifreyans can't regenerate? Shabogans as the original "unevolved" Gallifreyans is an interesting take – other sources equate them with Invasion of Time's Outsiders which fits pretty well, though the Outsiders always seemed to me more "drop outs" than "oppressed underclass." The Timeless Child backstory fits flawlessly with Cold Fusion thus far – "An explorer like his father before him." Lungbarrow lines up less nicely, but it can be forced. It also fits with most of the TV show hints we've gotten – "Didn't we have trouble with the prototype," the child in the barn who seems to be an orphan, all the various Masterplan hints and odd details hinting at pre-Hartnell Doctors. Can we assume that the Time Lords didn't really grant the Doctor an extra regeneration cycle in Time of the Doctor and just provided "cover" for him exceeding the regeneration limit? Or did the High Council (including Rassilon at this point) not know? Backstory disguised as Ireland was a clever touch – very Faction Paradox in its presentation – though I wish we'd seen it in some context. (The Doctor says she's seen it, but when? The scenes in the previous episode seemed disconnected from the narrative.) This might be the most lore/"canon" heavy Doctor Who story we've had since The War Games. I think it's our first explicit confirmation on television, yeah. We come close during Tom's years, The Invasion of Time seems to imply it during the Doctor's talk with Borusa: "People are dying out there. Men, women, Time Lords even, have died in that battle." I think it's a bit of both. After the assassination, when they're testing the rifle, Spandrell mentions having trouble with them within the Citadel as well as outside of it. I wonder if contemporary Gallifreyan language uses "Shobogan" in the same way modern English uses "Vandal"? A word that originally stood as the name of a people, that's been interpreted and reinterpreted over the centuries into a catch-all term for a counterculture/transgressive group. I've been thinking about The Time of the Doctor. There's a strong possibility that he has only twelve regenerations by the time of the First Doctor, but also... We've seen from the Simm!Master in Last of the Time Lords that you can deny regeneration. Choose to perish instead. If the Doctor thought he was at the end of his lifetimes, he might have surrendered to the impulse to die instead of regenerating. The extra burst of energy (needed or not) was essentially licence to allow him to go on. Not unlike what the Sisterhood did with Eight in The Night of the Doctor. *phew* Yeah... It's amazing what difference two extra faces make. I'm actually quietly delighted that we've got a bit more worldbuilding with Rassilon only on the periphery this time. I imagine his exhibits at the museum are like the Tutankhamen collection. Everyone wants to go see it and some poor desperate curator is always trying to pull visitors' attention to the Pandak displays or the preserved diaries of General Kopyion. I like the idea of Shobogan being like Vandal – that's clever. I suppose the question in regards to Time of the Doctor is whether the Doctor was biologically reset into a standard Time Lord (re-Loomed, perhaps, like in Lungbarrow?) or whether their memories were merely suppressed. At this point we don't really have the answer.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 8:06:51 GMT
One minor quibble, if the Doctor's regenerations are timeless how come he/she endures post traumatic regenerative disorder wouldn't it just be a natural change wihout side effects? It's a good question. It's not stated outright, but I've a theory that Time Lords are only supposed to regenerate (or complete their regeneration) in a Zero Room in a hospital ward on Gallifrey. It's so traumatic and tumultuous that any external stimulus, even the hum of the TARDIS engines, can produce disastrous side effects to the mind and senses. I think it depends on the circumstances of the death. The Second Doctor recovered quickly, despite some initial delirium, because he was in the TARDIS and the Ship was able to offer her strength. Maybe the bizarre side effects of some of the Doctor's regenerations are down to the fact that he/she/they have lived for so long. Or, maybe it's actually a lot worse for someone who doesn't know what they're doing and we've only seen the best of a bad circumstance. I think it's our first explicit confirmation on television, yeah. We come close during Tom's years, The Invasion of Time seems to imply it during the Doctor's talk with Borusa: "People are dying out there. Men, women, Time Lords even, have died in that battle." I think it's a bit of both. After the assassination, when they're testing the rifle, Spandrell mentions having trouble with them within the Citadel as well as outside of it. I wonder if contemporary Gallifreyan language uses "Shobogan" in the same way modern English uses "Vandal"? A word that originally stood as the name of a people, that's been interpreted and reinterpreted over the centuries into a catch-all term for a counterculture/transgressive group. I've been thinking about The Time of the Doctor. There's a strong possibility that he has only twelve regenerations by the time of the First Doctor, but also... We've seen from the Simm!Master in Last of the Time Lords that you can deny regeneration. Choose to perish instead. If the Doctor thought he was at the end of his lifetimes, he might have surrendered to the impulse to die instead of regenerating. The extra burst of energy (needed or not) was essentially licence to allow him to go on. Not unlike what the Sisterhood did with Eight in The Night of the Doctor. *phew* Yeah... It's amazing what difference two extra faces make. I'm actually quietly delighted that we've got a bit more worldbuilding with Rassilon only on the periphery this time. I imagine his exhibits at the museum are like the Tutankhamen collection. Everyone wants to go see it and some poor desperate curator is always trying to pull visitors' attention to the Pandak displays or the preserved diaries of General Kopyion. I like the idea of Shobogan being like Vandal – that's clever. I suppose the question in regards to Time of the Doctor is whether the Doctor was biologically reset into a standard Time Lord (re-Loomed, perhaps, like in Lungbarrow?) or whether their memories were merely suppressed. At this point we don't really have the answer. Isn't it fun to guess, though? I'm a fan of the notion that perhaps somewhere between the Morbius Doctors and our Doctor, he got scrambled out in a loom. That memory of him being stretched out, waiting to be born, could be the sheer weight of those life experiences looking for a means to escape from everything. In cobbling itself back together, that mind uses pieces of the Other, his Lungbarrowvian father and Earther mother to return back home into one of the Great Houses. Same Doctor as before, but with a keen difference in biodata makeup. Enough to pass as someone else for a while.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Mar 5, 2020 8:19:23 GMT
One minor quibble, if the Doctor's regenerations are timeless how come he/she endures post traumatic regenerative disorder wouldn't it just be a natural change wihout side effects? Even in the real world, there are plenty of natural functions that are painful or have bad side effects. I can't imagine having every cell in your body rebuilt and your brains scrambled would ever be anything but traumatic, no matter how natural it is.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 5, 2020 15:08:51 GMT
I'm 100% onboard with the new mystery. I think this will be a delight to knit together, but I'm very curious about the central axis of it all. No, not necessarily Tecteun, although she's a big part of it, I'm talking about the Boundary. This great, big portal through space, time and possibly elsewhere (possibly the same places that Can You Hear Me?'s Zellin and Rakaya herald from). The Doctor -- with all her experience -- doesn't understand it and neither did a man who spent most of his life living next to it. Where'd it come from? Where does it go (backwards, forwards, sideways, all of the above)? Why did the Timeless Child come through it? Did anything else come through after the baby? 'Tis a very interesting series of questions to unravel. Speaking of new questions, there's one I'm surprised hasn't been brought up much, even though more than a few asked why his name wasn't mentioned - does this mean a new Doctor-Rassilon dynamic? Could there maybe be a sort of jealous sept-sibling thing going on with the Doctor's real nature being so thoroughly erased and Rassilon bigging himself up as to rewrite the entire history to be about him? Did he do something to Tecteun? How much did she create that he took credit for?
I wonder if Chibbs is setting us up for a future confrontation. I mean, The Doctor would probably want to face him - he stole her entire life and legacy, possibly murdered her only family, destroyed her adoptive people during the Time War and left them weak enough for the Master, and indirectly contributed to the deaths of several companions. Frankly, it could be argued if he now outranks the Daleks or Master as the Doctor's greatest personal enemy.
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Tony Jones
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Post by Tony Jones on Mar 5, 2020 16:10:26 GMT
I'm 100% onboard with the new mystery. I think this will be a delight to knit together, but I'm very curious about the central axis of it all. No, not necessarily Tecteun, although she's a big part of it, I'm talking about the Boundary. This great, big portal through space, time and possibly elsewhere (possibly the same places that Can You Hear Me?'s Zellin and Rakaya herald from). The Doctor -- with all her experience -- doesn't understand it and neither did a man who spent most of his life living next to it. Where'd it come from? Where does it go (backwards, forwards, sideways, all of the above)? Why did the Timeless Child come through it? Did anything else come through after the baby? 'Tis a very interesting series of questions to unravel. Speaking of new questions, there's one I'm surprised hasn't been brought up much, even though more than a few asked why his name wasn't mentioned - does this mean a new Doctor-Rassilon dynamic? Could there maybe be a sort of jealous sept-sibling thing going on with the Doctor's real nature being so thoroughly erased and Rassilon bigging himself up as to rewrite the entire history to be about him? Did he do something to Tecteun? How much did she create that he took credit for?
I wonder if Chibbs is setting us up for a future confrontation. I mean, The Doctor would probably want to face him - he stole her entire life and legacy, possibly murdered her only family, destroyed her adoptive people during the Time War and left them weak enough for the Master, and indirectly contributed to the deaths of several companions. Frankly, it could be argued if he now outranks the Daleks or Master as the Doctor's greatest personal enemy.
This is very much where I think it might go
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Post by shallacatop on Mar 5, 2020 17:05:19 GMT
One thing I forgot to mention is I loved the variant of the theme tune that plays when the Doctor blows the Matrix. I don’t think it’s ever happened in the show before, discounting Before the Flood’s theme tune - pretty cool. Funnily enough Star Wars did it for the first time recently too!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 20:33:02 GMT
If that actually happened it would all have been worthwhile! Come on BF, make it so! Regards mark687 Looks like we will get to see him in the role (briefly) in the forthcoming 10 Doctors Revisited online...
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Post by sherlock on Mar 6, 2020 17:58:06 GMT
Apparently the BBC got enough complaints they felt the need to release a statement.
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