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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 22:06:47 GMT
Oh dear, I thought that was one of the worst episodes of Doctor Who since the show returned! There was way too much thrown in to this and too much exposition at the expense of entertainment. I was bored long before the end. As as for all of the Time Lord mumbjo jumbo, any casual BBC1 viewer watching would have turned over at the dullness of it all. A lot of it was bonkers and Chibnall has just come across as trying to be too clever. This episode just did not work for me at all.
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Post by scriptortempore on Mar 1, 2020 22:07:00 GMT
Didn't he say so directly? He could have been lying. We have no evidence to say he Master destroyed Gallifrey.it could all be a long game. Or maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there! 😀 He could've been. I think that's an acceptable way to headcanon the timeless child stuff away but I really doubt that's going to be taken up on the show.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 22:15:53 GMT
It says something that I was half seriously expecting them to incorporate a 'tribute' to William Hartnell by making his 'Son of Doctor Who' idea canon. In this, it was proposed that the Doctor had an evil son who also travelled in a Tardis. The Master would have revealed that he wrecked Gallifrey after learning that he was the Doctor's son, whilst the Doctor would have had am emotional 'come to mummy' moment, before telling him the truth about 'uncle' Rassilon. Seems quite plausible now.
Its all there for the taking in Series 13.....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 22:47:18 GMT
I feel rather odd being one of the very few positive posters about a Chibnall finale after last year when I was one of the dissenters throughout! I've posted my thoughts already on page three but one part I'd like to praise that has been lost among the canon chatter is that scene between Graham and Yaz. I really loved it as it captured everything I've always said about Yaz - that she is the ideal Who companion and in another era travelling alone would be regarded as one of the best. Her reaction shots always sell the drama or the action and she's the first to admit she's terrified...then jump into action. She didn't hesitate to be first crossing into the unknown with the boundary. I'm glad she got that speech from Graham to really celebrate her as she's terrific and Mandip has been consistently the most classical Who companion we've had in ages. I've said before Ryan and Graham should have been the S11 companions then left in Resolution and that's when we pick up Yaz. That would have been the best way to avoid the sidelining she's often had and to let Mandip shine. Yet she's grasped every chance in S12 to truly show what she can do and I appreciated Chibnall writing that little tribute to the character and the actor by proxy.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 1, 2020 22:53:27 GMT
I feel rather odd being one of the very few positive posters about a Chibnall finale after last year when I was one of the dissenters throughout! I've posted my thoughts already but one part I'd like to praise that has been lost among the canon chatter is that scene between Graham and Yaz. I really loved it as it captured everything I've always said about Yaz - that she is the ideal Who companion and in another era travelling alone would be regarded as one of the best. Her reaction shots always sell the drama or the action and she's the first to admit she's terrified...then jump into action. She didn't hesitate to be first crossing into the unknown with the boundary. I'm glad she got that speech from Graham to really celebrate her as she's terrific and Mandip has been consistently the most classical Who companion we've had in ages. I've said before Ryan and Graham should have been the S11 companions then left in Resolution and that's when we pick up Yaz. That would have been the best way to avoid the sidelining she's often had and to let Mandip shine. Yet she's grasped every chance in S12 to truly show what she can do and I appreciated Chibnall writing that little tribute to the character and the actor by proxy. Agreed a much overdue but very nice bit of business. Mandip never fails to make the best of what she's given Regards mark687
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Post by commonman on Mar 1, 2020 22:56:37 GMT
That's one is going to be VERY controversial. I expect some of it to be retconned out. How did the Master knew that the DOctor was the Timeless Child? That would have been removed from the Matrix no? I assume someone at some point to say that it's actually just a possibility. I wonder why Chib did not have any mention of Rassilon or Omega in it. They will probably come back in Chib's era to explain more of this era i imagine. I'm very disappointed that Cushing was not in the montage of past Doctor incarnations
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 1, 2020 23:04:32 GMT
Seems Cornell would disagree with some here on the significance to the Doctor's character:
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Post by scriptortempore on Mar 1, 2020 23:15:57 GMT
Seems Cornell would disagree with some here on the significance to the Doctor's character: I don't think it's either or. Yeah the message that you don't have to be held back by that is cool, but I think it's fair to say it does negate the greater potential in the idea the Doctor is just some rebel just figuring it all out and not space Jesus as an earlier poster dubbed it.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 1, 2020 23:19:42 GMT
Well that sucked - my spanking new tv that I was really looking forward to watching this on needs wifi to function as a receiver for anything so we basically have TMA-1 lying sideways on our entertainment unit until the internet gets connected (it doesn’t like my hotspot either).
Oh, the episode? Once I got over the realisation that this was - like so many resolutions to arse-kicking cliffhangers - going to be a bit of a gabfest, I really enjoyed it. Great conclusion to a terrific season. I don’t mind that the Doctor has a secret life we never knew about. It actually makes their hunting down by the Time Lords during the early years that much more interesting. The nods to history were great and show that Mr Chibnall really did put some thought into this and the red herring that Brendan was the cyber leader was a nice piece of misdirection. My only problem was the Master: I don’t really like the moustache-twirling man-child anarchist he’s become since about Timeflight. Michelle Gomez nearly gave the character some gravitas back and that was pretty much hit-and-Missy a lot of the time, too.
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Post by scriptortempore on Mar 1, 2020 23:26:01 GMT
I feel rather odd being one of the very few positive posters about a Chibnall finale after last year when I was one of the dissenters throughout! I've posted my thoughts already but one part I'd like to praise that has been lost among the canon chatter is that scene between Graham and Yaz. I really loved it as it captured everything I've always said about Yaz - that she is the ideal Who companion and in another era travelling alone would be regarded as one of the best. Her reaction shots always sell the drama or the action and she's the first to admit she's terrified...then jump into action. She didn't hesitate to be first crossing into the unknown with the boundary. I'm glad she got that speech from Graham to really celebrate her as she's terrific and Mandip has been consistently the most classical Who companion we've had in ages. I've said before Ryan and Graham should have been the S11 companions then left in Resolution and that's when we pick up Yaz. That would have been the best way to avoid the sidelining she's often had and to let Mandip shine. Yet she's grasped every chance in S12 to truly show what she can do and I appreciated Chibnall writing that little tribute to the character and the actor by proxy. Haha I have something similar with agreeing with people on here about an episode rn, it's a tad surreal! I didn't like that moment because I think it's a bit of a cop out (yes that was a pun I am not ashamed). It's all very well and good having a forced cut into a character moment saying yaz is really cool, but like I'd have preferred it if she was given much more to do. Are those who aren't fans of hers going to be sold by Graham just telling the audience she's great? If chibnall had the energy to write this, he should've spent more time on her on this and last season, and thankfully he's done a bit more this season but imo it's not enough. Aside from that, I think it was a bit of a setup for the Yaz Graham relationship some here have speculated about and tbh I really really am against that. No real romantic chemistry between the two, its only purpose would be to trick us after thinking it was Ryan.
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Post by number13 on Mar 2, 2020 0:09:25 GMT
I just cannot imagine the Doctor as something else than a random dude who was bad at school and just wanted to explore the universe for the hell of it. I cannot see Five, Six, Eight or any other incarnations as someone special because they are Space Jesus. I feared this would happen and I don't like where this is going. But the Hartnell cycle of the Doctor IS all those things. They sucked at school, spent more time pallying about with vagrants than learning textbook knowledge, stole a TARDIS, met some humans and decided that the universe needs someone to potter around and pull up the weeds and straighten the hedges every so often. The cycle of the Doctor that includes Jo Martin were agents of “The Division” who went on to continue to use the Doctor without their agreement, it’s entirely possible that Martin was the last one to work for the Division by choice. Oh yes that was another irritating thing. Why invent 'The Division' at all? (All a bit second division if you ask me. )
What would have been wrong with them being the founders of the Celestial Intervention Agency?
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Post by xlozdob on Mar 2, 2020 0:16:23 GMT
Seems Cornell would disagree with some here on the significance to the Doctor's character: I don't think it's either or. Yeah the message that you don't have to be held back by that is cool, but I think it's fair to say it does negate the greater potential in the idea the Doctor is just some rebel just figuring it all out and not space Jesus as an earlier poster dubbed it. I feel this reinforces the idea of the Doctor as a rebel rather than negate it. They were adopted and experimented on and the made to work for these people doing their bidding and still they ended up rebelling against the machine and becoming this great hero who fights for the people who cannot do it for themselves.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 2, 2020 0:18:07 GMT
Random thoughts..... As David said to me when I asked him how it was, this was a messy episode. Interesting hour plus of Doctor Who. Especially how The Master had to do all the heavy lifting for the first 45 or so minutes with the Doctor being left to react. Has the Doctor ever been so passive in an episode? I think it works. I like the secret history of the Doctor may be more than we know but the character of the Doctor remains what we know it to be. Feels like Chibnall kind of having his cake moment. The continuity of the show hasn't really been altered but Chibnall has added a substrata to the character that certainly adds a lot of options for him and future creators. Like David mentioned, getting rid of the cap on regeneration cycles makes a lot of sense. That really was a lot of exposition wasn't it? Kind of an awkward way to get rid of the TARDIS crew. Ryan sinking the basket or bomb was kind of a nice way to close out his character arc. Graham's speech to Yaz really was lovely stuff. Beautifully played by both of them. And again, I love the modern take on the retro TARDIS. Anyway, hats off to CC for delivering a exciting & interesting series of Doctor Who and after the very bland first series under his direction it was good to see the second series take risks and to have it pushing the show forward. That isn't a given and it will certainly be divisive. So bring on...what...Christmas and Daleks.
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Post by xlozdob on Mar 2, 2020 0:27:35 GMT
Overall, I was a bit cautious going into this episode fearing what I had read months ago was going to become true. Not because it wouldn't work or anything, just because it would muddle the continuity and I'm a bit finicky about everything fitting perfectly. But I think it was crazy enough that it worked, and realised brilliantly, in the writing, the direction and the performances. It was an amazing episode that kept me at the edge of my seat from beginning to end. Very believable stakes. So, yeah, my two cents, fwiw.
And yes, I think the way it was done it brings back a certain mystery to the character that perhaps had been lost, while keeping the character we know and love (as opposed, perhaps, to what was done in Lungbarrow). Now it's up to the next few series (and eventually Big Finish) to fill in the gaps and continue exploring these threads.
The only thing I didn't like is them "destroying" Gallifrey and the Time Lords yet again. I want me some proper Time Lord intrigue in the show.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 2, 2020 0:37:25 GMT
I do appreciate that Chibnall kept the show's continuity intact. He just added a backstory to it that none of us knew before. The potential for stories just increased without negating the show's history. That isn't a easy thing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 0:49:48 GMT
Overall, I was a bit cautious going into this episode fearing what I had read months ago was going to become true. Not because it wouldn't work or anything, just because it would muddle the continuity and I'm a bit finicky about everything fitting perfectly. But I think it was crazy enough that it worked, and realised brilliantly, in the writing, the direction and the performances. It was an amazing episode that kept me at the edge of my seat from beginning to end. Very believable stakes. So, yeah, my two cents, fwiw. And yes, I think the way it was done it brings back a certain mystery to the character that perhaps had been lost, while keeping the character we know and love (as opposed, perhaps, to what was done in Lungbarrow). Now it's up to the next few series (and eventually Big Finish) to fill in the gaps and continue exploring these threads.The only thing I didn't like is them "destroying" Gallifrey and the Time Lords yet again. I want me some proper Time Lord intrigue in the show. Yes, exactly. We knew so little about Hartnell's Doc before he was already an old, old man. The "early years" of his life have pretty much always remained ambiguous...now there's just a lot more ambiguity and a lot more time in which to tell it, going back farther than we thought. It's not cut out any canon it's expanded it. What made The Doctors special wasn't their numbering. Their place in canon. Their timelines. It was their characters, their stories, their friends and their adventures. And that's all still intact. Is Hartnell lesser for not being first? No. As Missy says in The Witch's Familiar "They're all The Doctor to me". What I like about the mystery being back is that unlike what was happening with McCoy in the VNAs...even Jodie doesn't have the answers. She's got the same mystery to solve...that's fun and opens up so much in the way of story potential.
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Post by Digi on Mar 2, 2020 0:52:17 GMT
Well, I'll say that I enjoyed it, but I really don't think it stuck the landing after last week's spectacular setup. Maybe I'm being a little dense, but I'm not seeing what was so earth-shattering about all this? A race of secretive people secretly got their powers from a secret kid, and then secretly secerted the secret. Honestly, by the standards of the Time Lords, borrowing regeneration from a space child feels pretty Tuesday afternoon for them. I hadn't quite put my finger on it, but I think this might be part of my issue with it. I was expecting the Big Secret to be a bit more of a big deal. Still, big improvement over last year, and I'm looking forward to wherever we go next!
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Post by doctorkernow on Mar 2, 2020 0:53:43 GMT
Hello again.
Well... There were bits I liked. The scenes between the Master and the Doctor were excellent. Both Sacha Dawhan and Jodie Whittaker demonstrated the real power of that relationship. I think they bounce well off eah other and their scenes in this season are the best written by Chibnall. I would like to see this iteration of the Master back again.
As for the Doctor being the Timeless Child. I am reminded of Lance Parkin's 35th anniversary story The Infinity Doctors. If the Doctor is from an alternative dimension and has regenerated so many times we didn't know aboout, surely there is a limit, the alternative is that the Doctor is now immortal barring accidents.
One thing I am really fed up is this incessant going back to Gallifrey. The change to the mythos while nicely done, and beautifully narrated by the Master, really didn't do much for me I'm afraid.
As for the Cybermen, once again, they were turned into clunking robots. Ashad being tricked by the Master I thought he'd shrink him earlier than he did. What a waste, though his emotions did for him in the end. And there is no way he didn't know the TARDIS crew were in there. I hated the CyberLords they looked ridiculous!
Anyway, there is still much to digest...
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 2, 2020 0:57:29 GMT
After having watched this with my sister and us discussing how much we'd enjoyed the way all this turned out, I have to say I'm somewhat surprised and a little disappointed this hasn't gone down too well. As someone who is kind of against changing established continuity "just because", I was extremely worried about where this story was going to go and, ultimately, this story doesn't actually change anything. We've always known the story from chapter one, also known as An Unearthly Child, and we've had a bit of chapter zero filled in via exposition; all The Timeless Children added was a proper prologue. And the best part? You can actively ignore it and it changes absolutely nothing! So what if there were Doctors before Hartnell? Does it actually affect the incarnation of the Doctor we know, from Hartnell to Whittaker? Not at all. This "change" genuinely changes nothing to the ongoing adventures of the First Doctor through to the Thirteenth, and that's why I love it so much. Maybe they'll expand on all this stuff in future series but I'd be just fine with everything being left as it is. The Doctor that "matters", the Doctor that "counts", starts with when young Hartnell was brought into the world, be that by birth, loom, or regression into a child. All we have to do know it go forward with "our" version of the character and everything's just as it always was. As for The Timeless Children itself I'll agree it was a bit messy. It was quite slow (though I wouldn't say it was boring), but that gave the story the necessary time to breathe and get all the important moments across without rushing through things. I can't imagine how incoherent this would have been at the standard 50 minutes. The companions were all given something to do (even if it was only really inter-character stuff between Graham and Yas), Jodie gave a great performance, and Dhawan solidified himself in his role (if he hadn't already). The Cybermen did feel a little unnecessary in this second episode, Ashad felt quite wasted after all the buildup he'd been given, and I thought the Cyber Masters looked absolutely terrible (the headdresses were nice, but they looked stupid on the Cybermen); I don't have a problem with Time Lords being converted either, though the idea that a dead Time Lord body could continue to regenerate didn't make a lot of sense to me. On the whole, the episode was alright, leaning into a very solid "good". I wouldn't say it was amazing, but it did something new without actually changing anything that came before it and that's not easily done. I've been quite surprised by just how much I've enjoyed Series 12 after a very lacklustre Series 11, and I'm very much looking forward to Revolution of the Daleks (whenever that might be)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 0:58:43 GMT
Well, I'll say that I enjoyed it, but I really don't think it stuck the landing after last week's spectacular setup. Maybe I'm being a little dense, but I'm not seeing what was so earth-shattering about all this? A race of secretive people secretly got their powers from a secret kid, and then secretly secerted the secret. Honestly, by the standards of the Time Lords, borrowing regeneration from a space child feels pretty Tuesday afternoon for them. I hadn't quite put my finger on it, but I think this might be part of my issue with it. I was expecting the Big Secret to be a bit more of a big deal. Still, big improvement over last year, and I'm looking forward to wherever we go next! Yes, I thought that Jo Martin's Doc being pre-Hartnell was generally seen as most likely to be explained as somehow being pre-Hartnell - especially when Chibnall explicitly said she wasn't from another reality or anything. That was certainly the most popular guess on this very forum on the Fugitive Of The Judoon thread. So it's a bit odd so many seem that surprised it turned out that way. It didn't exactly come out of the blue, to the point where as you and Abel say...it didn't even seem as major a reveal as we thought. Jo's reveal itself was a bigger surprise but when that happened...there was quite a large contingent on here and elsewhere saying exactly what happened tonight would be the case.
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