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Post by elkawho on Mar 2, 2020 4:16:26 GMT
I haven't rated it yet because I think I need to sit with it for a while. I kept waiting for the story of the Timeless Child to mention Rasillon. I mean, when does anyone explain anything in Time Lord history and NOT mention Rasillon? I thought the woman who went out and found the child (can't remember her name right now) was going to end up being him. Especially with what we know of his quest for prolonging Gallifreyan life spans and his lack of scruples when going after what he wanted. And yes, I agree. Why create "The Division" when we already have the CIA? As for the stuff it does do, I'm of two minds about this episode. Some great stuff! I love Sacha Dawhan's Master. (although I was waiting for an "I am The Master and you will obey me" moment.) Yes, he's more crazed than Delgado, Beevers and Jacobi's incarnations, but not nearly as insane as Simm. I'm loving the energy and excitement overlaying the slow burning intelligence and malevolence underneath. And it feels like the truth that he found certainly unhinged him. I loved the moment between Graham and Yaz, and the humans hiding in the Cyber-suits was great. Jodie has been much better this series than last, and her Doctor seems to listen more this year. The Time-Lord Cybermen made absolutely no sense, but they sure did look gorgeous. And I liked the run time. It didn't feel rushed, and that's sometimes a problem with modern Who. The not so good: What a waste of the Cyber Leader, although I knew what was going to happen as soon as he started getting confrontational with The Master. I know that it's been mentioned, but since when do the Cybermen want to destroy all organic life rather than upgrade and incorporate it? I thought the Brendan story line was a waste. I couldn't see how that related at all to her past or memories. I mean, yeah they showed us, but Brendan's story has never been something in The Doctor's memories, she's never seen herself as a small child growing up in Ireland or becoming am Irish police officer. I just found it very odd and just stuck in there for no real reason. And there is no way the Jadoon could just transmat into the Tardis. Nope. And now on the the big reveal. Here is where I'm stuck and need to think for a while. I don't hate it. Like others I don't think it fundamentally changes the character in any way. But I also don't love the idea that The Doctor is on such a pedastal now. Actually, I think I'm feeling kind of "meh" about it. I don't hate it, I don't love it. I guess I was hoping to be on the adrenaline high I was with some of the episodes this season, and I'm not. But the fact that it has me thinking so hard about it is a good thing. So, yeah I'm starting to think that it was a pretty good episode.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 4:19:55 GMT
I wonder if it was Stuart Humphryes (better known as BabelColour) and the like? It's difficult to say definitively these days, there are so many lovely colourisation artists about. I'm waiting for the tweet where the curtain is thrown back and someone goes: "'Tis I!" but it's yet to happen so far. I'd say it probably wasn't Stuart. No offence to whoever did the work for this episode, but it doesn't look nearly as good as Stuart's work. I have no doubt the brevity of the clips was to help disguise how not-so-great the final efforts are, but it was still nice to see that they'd done it He does paint a very pretty picture. The more I think about it, the less likely it becomes. After all, he is busy with that other project...
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 2, 2020 5:18:10 GMT
I'd say it probably wasn't Stuart. No offence to whoever did the work for this episode, but it doesn't look nearly as good as Stuart's work. I have no doubt the brevity of the clips was to help disguise how not-so-great the final efforts are, but it was still nice to see that they'd done it He does paint a very pretty picture. The more I think about it, the less likely it becomes. After all, he is busy with that other project... Ah yes, that other project which may or may not require significant rewrites after this episode If it's just going to be a slicker retelling of his original story then it sadly isn't going to work any more, which is a shame as at the time it was a great explanation for everything that it addressed (Being vague here for anyone who hasn't seen it but definitely should)
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Post by constonks on Mar 2, 2020 5:30:11 GMT
One of my main problems with this season is how much it kills the entire Moffat tenure:
The Eleventh Doctor saved Gallifrey, was given a new regeneration cycle by the Time Lords and the Twelfth Doctor reformed the Master. These were all plot points of BIG episodes - each one leading to the regeneration of a Doctor somehow and each one a completion of a long arc.
...then the next Master destroyed Gallifrey and revealed the Doctor could regenerate indefinitely already.
I'm fine with this episode burning down our knowledge of Time Lords - there are so many timelines interwoven in Gallifrey's history that it can handle both a Tectuen and a Rassilon. But I sigh quite heavily when I think of how pointless so many of the big Moffat episodes feel now...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 5:52:31 GMT
He does paint a very pretty picture. The more I think about it, the less likely it becomes. After all, he is busy with that other project... Ah yes, that other project which may or may not require significant rewrites after this episode If it's just going to be a slicker retelling of his original story then it sadly isn't going to work any more, which is a shame as at the time it was a great explanation for everything that it addressed (Being vague here for anyone who hasn't seen it but definitely should) Oh, definitely worth checking out. It's a great example of big things accomplished with limited resources. There is a nice irony that the remake is going to be titled The Timeless Doctors to accommodate the changes. I think they'll find a way around it, if it wasn't already heading in that Morbius Doctors direction already. One possibility is you have a character recount the tale and have the Doctors bicker among themselves as to whether or not they consider it genuine, merely a point of view or an out-and-out misrepresentation. One of my main problems with this season is how much it kills the entire Moffat tenure: The Eleventh Doctor saved Gallifrey, was given a new regeneration cycle by the Time Lords and the Twelfth Doctor reformed the Master. These were all plot points of BIG episodes - each one leading to the regeneration of a Doctor somehow and each one a completion of a long arc. ...then the next Master destroyed Gallifrey and revealed the Doctor could regenerate indefinitely already. I'm fine with this episode burning down our knowledge of Time Lords - there are so many timelines interwoven in Gallifrey's history that it can handle both a Tectuen and a Rassilon. But I sigh quite heavily when I think of how pointless so many of the big Moffat episodes feel now... Not necessarily. I have a theory about that. It's not entirely clear how long the Doctor's lived and what the consequences of having such a long life was. As he said himself in The Five Doctors, immortality is impossible for a Time Lord. Rassilon ended up in the Matrix, but he had to die first to get there. Become a king of infinite space trapped inside the microuniverse of the megacomputer. From Mawdryn Undead onwards, we learnt that regenerations existed as packets of transferable energy. If the Doctor was under the heel of the Division, they could've taken those regenerations away or added more as needed. The High Council were able to do it for the Master in The Five Doctors. Rather than immortality forever, it's possible that the First Doctor was the beginning of as Borusa put it a "new life cycle". Rather than guessing where we were on an individual-by-individual basis -- as it was in the Moffat Years (is this the final life or the penultimate one?) -- there's now this brand new question of where the Doctor is on a cycle-by-cycle basis. Is this the last one? Is this the final ream of lives we will see with the Doctor?
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Post by constonks on Mar 2, 2020 6:07:02 GMT
[...] ...revealed the Doctor could regenerate indefinitely already. Not necessarily. I have a theory about that. It's not entirely clear how long the Doctor's lived and what the consequences of having such a long life was. As he said himself in The Five Doctors, immortality is impossible for a Time Lord. Rassilon ended up in the Matrix, but he had to die first to get there. Become a king of infinite space trapped inside the microuniverse of the megacomputer. From Mawdryn Undead onwards, we learnt that regenerations existed as packets of transferable energy. If the Doctor was under the heel of the Division, they could've taken those regenerations away or added more as needed. The High Council were able to do it for the Master in The Five Doctors. Rather than immortality forever, it's possible that the First Doctor was the beginning of as Borusa put it a "new life cycle". Rather than guessing where we were on an individual-by-individual basis -- as it was in the Moffat Years (is this the final life or the penultimate one?) -- there's now this brand new question of where the Doctor is on a cycle-by-cycle basis. Is this the last one? Is this the final ream of lives we will see with the Doctor? I guess we were never told that the Doctor was still able to infinitely regenerate - I just assumed that (as did a few other reviews I read). But who knows what rules the show will play by when the Twenty-Third Doctor is set to bow out in, what, 2050? I mean, I assume it'll be one of us in charge by then anyway (I'm still irked by the instant re-destruction of Gallifrey though...)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 6:23:18 GMT
Not necessarily. I have a theory about that. It's not entirely clear how long the Doctor's lived and what the consequences of having such a long life was. As he said himself in The Five Doctors, immortality is impossible for a Time Lord. Rassilon ended up in the Matrix, but he had to die first to get there. Become a king of infinite space trapped inside the microuniverse of the megacomputer. From Mawdryn Undead onwards, we learnt that regenerations existed as packets of transferable energy. If the Doctor was under the heel of the Division, they could've taken those regenerations away or added more as needed. The High Council were able to do it for the Master in The Five Doctors. Rather than immortality forever, it's possible that the First Doctor was the beginning of as Borusa put it a "new life cycle". Rather than guessing where we were on an individual-by-individual basis -- as it was in the Moffat Years (is this the final life or the penultimate one?) -- there's now this brand new question of where the Doctor is on a cycle-by-cycle basis. Is this the last one? Is this the final ream of lives we will see with the Doctor? I guess we were never told that the Doctor was still able to infinitely regenerate - I just assumed that (as did a few other reviews I read). But who knows what rules the show will play by when the Twenty-Third Doctor is set to bow out in, what, 2050? I mean, I assume it'll be one of us in charge by then anyway (I'm still irked by the instant re-destruction of Gallifrey though...) Perhaps, perhaps. Ahhh, let's hope. There's an awful lot of talent floating about 'ere forums. I'd love to see it make the leap. Ooh, talking of the Moffat Years, this is something I've wanted to see since Capaldi took over the role: I've always wanted a coalition of outcasts, renegades and dispossessed -- Gallifrey's exiles -- press-ganged together into trying to form a new Homeworld. From scratch, with limited resources and mixed results. Something not entirely unlike the Gods of the Fourth from Death Comes to Time. A coterie that's desperately trying to revive a civilisation that they themselves rejected because the cosmos needs it for the sake of balance.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 2, 2020 7:04:55 GMT
One of my main problems with this season is how much it kills the entire Moffat tenure: The Eleventh Doctor saved Gallifrey, was given a new regeneration cycle by the Time Lords and the Twelfth Doctor reformed the Master. These were all plot points of BIG episodes - each one leading to the regeneration of a Doctor somehow and each one a completion of a long arc. ...then the next Master destroyed Gallifrey and revealed the Doctor could regenerate indefinitely already. I'm fine with this episode burning down our knowledge of Time Lords - there are so many timelines interwoven in Gallifrey's history that it can handle both a Tectuen and a Rassilon. But I sigh quite heavily when I think of how pointless so many of the big Moffat episodes feel now... It doesn’t necessarily kill the Moffat stories: the Doctor had no recollection of those lives until she went back into the Matrix. And she wasn’t “reborn” as “our” Doctor until after the 12-regeneration limit was imposed so it may well be that - since it’s part of a “hidden” aspect of Gallifrey’s history - not many time lords are aware that they were once immortal. Or even that they themselves individually were immortal.
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Post by constonks on Mar 2, 2020 7:25:02 GMT
Ooh, talking of the Moffat Years, this is something I've wanted to see since Capaldi took over the role: I've always wanted a coalition of outcasts, renegades and dispossessed -- Gallifrey's exiles -- press-ganged together into trying to form a new Homeworld. From scratch, with limited resources and mixed results. Something not entirely unlike the Gods of the Fourth from Death Comes to Time. A coterie that's desperately trying to revive a civilisation that they themselves rejected because the cosmos needs it for the sake of balance. That would be a nice way to continue both stories - the Doctor saved the people of Gallifrey but then saw the planet itself burned. Who knows how many Time Lords escaped before that happened?
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Post by chopper on Mar 2, 2020 8:21:59 GMT
Surprised at how boring they managed to make this.
The new back story, not a fan, but it is what it is. However it deserved way more of a build up. This is the sort of story that should have built up along the series not tangentially mentioned in the first story and then picked up at the end.
Sachan was great. Literally the only interesting thing in the episode. Jodie had nothing to do but be on the receiving end of half an hour of exposition. So, so dull.
The doctor ready and willing to commit genocide with that particle thingy. Does that feel like The Doctor? Doesnt to me. That whole cyberman thread with it being her fault from the Mary Shelly episode didnt feel knitted together anyway.
And another person sacrificing themselves as a solution. Boring.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 2, 2020 8:47:55 GMT
Surprised at how boring they managed to make this. The new back story, not a fan, but it is what it is. However it deserved way more of a build up. This is the sort of story that should have built up along the series not tangentially mentioned in the first story and then picked up at the end. Sachan was great. Literally the only interesting thing in the episode. Jodie had nothing to do but be on the receiving end of half an hour of exposition. So, so dull. The doctor ready and willing to commit genocide with that particle thingy. Does that feel like The Doctor? Doesnt to me. That whole cyberman thread with it being her fault from the Mary Shelly episode didnt feel knitted together anyway. And another person sacrificing themselves as a solution. Boring. The Doctor getting all shouty and “look I’ve made a Murder thing!!” only to be unable to push the button is a very Doctor thing to do. They’ll bluster and get really really angry and then stop because they cannot imagine being the person who DOES push the button (which is why none of thrm like War, he DID press the button). the ninth Doctor turned Platform thingy into a murder machine and can’t push the button. the tenth Doctor repeatedly waves pistols around and ends up at best shooting a machine. the twelfth Doctor goes on a warpath that lasts all of ten seconds because Clara knows him and that he’ll stop his reign of terror the moment someone is actually scared by it.
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Post by Timelord007 on Mar 2, 2020 8:52:55 GMT
For the most part i enjoyed this & loved the timeless child being the Doctor it really adds mystery & mythology to the shows title Doctor Who.
Jodie was fantastic showing emotion & even anger at one point, this reveal will no doubt play a major part in series 13, is it true, is the Master lying is there a evrn greater arc behind this?
Sasha as the Master i adore he is utterly batsh.t crazy, i never brought into the redemption arc of Missy, the Master is evil & this episode showed just how cunning & manipulative the character is by mutating Timelord DNA into Cybermen to become Cyberlords .
I did feel the Cybermen took a backseat after last weeks impressive build up & Ashad wasted as he was so easily defeated by the Master, then again it showcases just what a evil genius the Master is.
The Brendan stuff I'm confused about, did this actually happen or did the Master implant this memory into the Doctor?
My only gripes were another character self sacrifice, I'd liked the Doctor to have called the Masters bluff & pushed the button instead of another character dying to save the Doctor, Captain Jacks non-return was disappointing as he's yet to meet this incarnation of the Doctor & how in the hell did the Judoon get inside the Tardis?
Overall, i enjoyed the twist & looking forward to seeing where this arc goes in series 13.
4/5.
Oh & here Big Finish take my Lizzie Windsors for the upcoming Division box set. Lol
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Post by stcoop on Mar 2, 2020 9:12:37 GMT
I pity Jodie when she got the script and realised that she had nothing to do for 60 of the 65 minutes of the episode.
It's also the perfect example of the illusion of change, since nothing that happened will effect day-to-day episodes, and you can assume that when they turned her back into a child again, they gave her the 12 regeneration limit at that point.
I did like the return of the "What! What!! WHAT!!!" at the end of a series finale, though it does kind of reienforce the feeling I have that Chibnall would rather pretend Moffat's years in charge never happened and that it went straight from RTD to him.
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Post by Tim Bradley on Mar 2, 2020 9:13:11 GMT
Hello everyone! My review on 'The Timeless Child' will be coming soon. Simply put, I loved it. That bit about 'the timeless child' being acquired and experimented on to make the people of Gallifrey become Time Lords. It put me in mind of what I did in my Fifth Doctor stories with the villainous Salvador as a boy made to become a Time Lord after he was found on Gallifrey. Just thought I'd mention it here. Tim.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 2, 2020 9:42:28 GMT
Also, I’m dead serious about sending chocolates to Chibbers. Does BBC Cardiff have an address I can use?
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Post by number13 on Mar 2, 2020 9:45:16 GMT
I haven't rated it yet because I think I need to sit with it for a while. I kept waiting for the story of the Timeless Child to mention Rasillon. I mean, when does anyone explain anything in Time Lord history and NOT mention Rasillon? Obviously the Doctor is Rassilon. We just haven't been told yet - but we will in 'The Total Rewrite Of Rassilon' (series 13 ep 10, don't miss it folks! )
The Doctor will also be revealed to have been Borusa, Flavia, Andred, Runcible the Fatuous and (most astonishing of all) third guard from the left in the bit where the Sontarans turn up! I certainly didn't see that one coming.
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Post by number13 on Mar 2, 2020 9:48:11 GMT
Also, I’m dead serious about sending chocolates to Chibbers. Does BBC Cardiff have an address I can use? The Post Office Box Of Rassilon Near the Rift Cardiff
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 9:59:14 GMT
I pity Jodie when she got the script and realised that she had nothing to do for 60 of the 65 minutes of the episode. It's also the perfect example of the illusion of change, since nothing that happened will effect day-to-day episodes, and you can assume that when they turned her back into a child again, they gave her the 12 regeneration limit at that point.I did like the return of the "What! What!! WHAT!!!" at the end of a series finale, though it does kind of reienforce the feeling I have that Chibnall would rather pretend Moffat's years in charge never happened and that it went straight from RTD to him. I dunno, that was the initial fear with Spyfall and this season has shown that was not the case (in spades). Beyond that, the same argument could be made for... to pick a random example out of a hat, The Day of the Doctor. Gallifrey was brought back and nothing really changed for years and years on end. It was still the Doctor and the TARDIS travelling throughout time and space.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 10:00:11 GMT
Also, I’m dead serious about sending chocolates to Chibbers. Does BBC Cardiff have an address I can use? Clearly I've missed something. Pray tell us, why do you want to send chocolates to Chibbers?
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Post by bohnny on Mar 2, 2020 10:35:07 GMT
Space Jesus? Oh, no, the Doctor is BRIAN!! Brian, people! Don't go all Muggeridge on me now. And as for BF and Who? All perfectly seamless (cough). Brax at one time was Lord Burner and chose not to carry out a task. Was that a position held by a Division member? A BF division series (separate or part of the Gallifrey series) can only be a matter of time
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