Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 8:30:29 GMT
I realize that Big Finish will probably be able to figure out a way to fix it all... But still.
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Post by stcoop on Mar 4, 2020 8:59:27 GMT
Is this meant to be satire?
If anyone "killed the show" then surely it was Robin Bland back in 1976. Whatever happened to him, by the way?
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 4, 2020 9:16:52 GMT
How can Big Finish fix it? The only problem with the episode is Edmund Warwick doesn't really look like William Hartnell, and that's not something any audio production company can fix...
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Post by sherlock on Mar 4, 2020 9:27:33 GMT
How can Big Finish fix it? The only problem with the episode is Edmund Warwick doesn't really look like William Hartnell, and that's not something any audio production company can fix... And also the Daleks making a duplicate of the person they’re attempting to assassinate doesn’t make a bit of sense, but then that’s hardly the weirdest aspect of The Chase. Big Finish could do a conspiracy storyline focusing on Dalek duplicates, to include a throwaway explanation on how they’re sometime imperfect in design. Paranoia abound as no-one can be trusted on a human colony far from the frontlines of the Dalek War...actually that sounds quite good.
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Post by frisby78 on Mar 4, 2020 9:31:25 GMT
About as much as any of the previous producers have...
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 4, 2020 9:41:21 GMT
Is this meant to be satire? If anyone "killed the show" then surely it was Robin Bland back in 1976. Whatever happened to him, by the way? Didn’t Robin Bland go off to do Bergerac?
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Mar 4, 2020 10:25:13 GMT
Well, for what it is worth I know personally at least four lifelong fans of the series who have slowly tuned out over the course of the last two series, and judging by their reactions to the reveal in The Timeless Children, none of them have any intention of picking up the show again whilst the current creative team is still involved. My 'not we' parents and siblings have also been less than impressed by the current era (and in my father's case completely and utterly confused by the last episode), though for them Dr Who is just a fun bit of escapism with silly monsters, they have little desire to see deep lore or dark drama explored in the series, it may simply be not the kind of episodes they like rather than a dislike for the era as a whole.
I haven't personally watched more than a few assorted clips/scenes from the Chibnall/Whittaker era, and nothing I have seen, read or heard about it has persuaded me to change my mind, and frankly the timeless child reveal just isn't one I like (that isn't me being entitled or churlish, it's just a creative decision that I feel is at odds with the history and character of the show, I guess now I completely understand how some fans felt heartbroken by the portrayal of Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi).
(Though in my case that isn't unusual-I haven't seen most of the 80's or Matt Smith episodes yet either, I just prefer certain doctors/eras over others)
So I guess in my case it hasn't killed the show at all, just my interest in this current era.
I have 55 years of previous serials, books, comics (and the ever expanding pool of great BF stories) to enjoy, and that's more than enough for me.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 4, 2020 12:07:14 GMT
Pardon my French, but this is bullsh*t. You can't say that because the show in its current incarnation isn't to your liking that it is dead. Hartnell's Who was very different to Pertwee's Who which was in turn very different to McCoy's. The show has changed because television and entertainment have changed. It's adapting to the changing times and surviving. It's natural for it to shed/ gain fans across these times. If it loses some whinging man-children (and it is almost always men) then I only hope the door hits them on the arse on the way out. And that it's a big, heavy door.
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Post by ollychops on Mar 4, 2020 12:21:49 GMT
Chibnall's killed my enthusiasm for his era of the show, it's not must-see TV for me anymore, I'm no longer rushing to watch it as soon as it airs, and I don't really get all that excited over new episodes. I'll keep watching, but I'm hoping for a new showrunner sooner rather than later.
Has Chibnall killed the show in general? Probably not. If the BBC aren't happy with the audience figures, then they'll probably get a new showrunner before axing the show completely. Even if they do rest the show for a while, it'll still live on in audios/novels/comics so, no, the show's never going to be completely dead.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 12:27:30 GMT
Chibnall's killed my enthusiasm for his era of the show, it's not must-see TV for me anymore, I'm no longer rushing to watch it as soon as it airs, and I don't really get all that excited over new episodes. I'll keep watching, but I'm hoping for a new showrunner sooner rather than later. Has Chibnall killed the show in general? Probably not. If the BBC aren't happy with the audience figures, then they'll probably get a new showrunner before axing the show completely. Even if they do rest the show for a while, it'll still live on in audios/novels/comics so, no, the show's never going to be completely dead. I truly get where you come from but having not seen any of this series or very much of the original Jodie series am all for watching this series on Blu-ray as somehow I wanted this change I wanted this break am hearing from established history and handled right it could be a new rebirth to me actually being interested again in the TV incarnation of my was going to say favourite Timelord except he/she isn’t one -love it and I hope I will LOVE it
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 13:41:10 GMT
I'm going to take this thread off on a complete tangent for a moment..and talk about Star Trek.
I adored the original series as a child. When the BBC reran the episodes back in the late seventies I was there, laying on the floor with my head propped in my hands and utterly spellbound by what I was seeing. With the passage of time I can certainly see that the special effects were not that great, some of the acting was questionable and some of the stories were frankly atrocious..but back then none of that mattered.
The TV show led to the first six movies (where I loved five of them with equal measure..the less said about Star Trek V the better) which in turn led to the Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. With both shows the love affair was not the same as the one I had with the original series. It took me two seasons to warm to both, but by TNG's and DS9's third seasons I was hooked once more, albeit in a different way to my 1970's self. This time I started to question some of the dubious plot threads and when the occasional 'stinker' episode was shown I viewed it with a far more critical eye.
By the time Voyager premiered my fondness for the franchise was starting to wane. I tried to get into the premise of the show but I failed miserably. To date I've seen maybe a dozen or so episodes scattered over the seven seasons. With Enterprise I've managed barely half a dozen episodes over it's four seasons. The TNG movies left me cold and I haven't seen any of the Kelvin Timeline movies beyond the 2009 one. I stuck with the first series of Discovery more out of curiosity than interest but just couldn't connect with it and sadly I suspect I won't be turning in to the second series of Picard (a lot of potential but again my interest is waning).
But do I want the franchise killed off as a result of my falling out of love with it?
Absolutely not. Because somewhere there is a young Star Trek fan laying on the floor with their head propped in their hands, watching the TV and utterly spellbound by what they are seeing..
So what does this have to do with Doctor Who? A lot actually. Over the past forty odd years I have fallen in and out of love with this show more times than I have fingers and toes to count on. Chibnall's era isn't perfect, far from it in fact. But neither was Moffat's, RTD's, JNT's or any of the others. How can they be? How can anybody meet the expectations and personal headcanon of every single viewer? Cannot be done.
But for us it is much easier. Becoming a fan of a long running TV show is just like (and I'm going to loosely 'borrow' from a TNG episode called "Relics") the first time you fall in love. As the years progress (and show runners change) you don't ever love quite like that again. It changes. You can try and recapture those feelings of course and sometimes it works, but sometimes it just boils down to the moment when you eventually realise you can't fall in love like that anymore..when you know you don't feel the same anymore.
A time when you simply have to stop.
And acknowledge that somewhere there is a young Doctor Who fan laying on the floor with their head propped in their hands watching the TV, and they are utterly spellbound by what they are seeing..
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Post by mark687 on Mar 4, 2020 13:44:46 GMT
Not Killed it No done something not needed Yes.
I mean I've never cried out for The Other, Looms, and Houses to be done / explained, so why should I for Chibbs version of pre-Hartnell history.
Regards
mark687
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Post by ollychops on Mar 4, 2020 14:33:07 GMT
Chibnall's killed my enthusiasm for his era of the show, it's not must-see TV for me anymore, I'm no longer rushing to watch it as soon as it airs, and I don't really get all that excited over new episodes. I'll keep watching, but I'm hoping for a new showrunner sooner rather than later. Has Chibnall killed the show in general? Probably not. If the BBC aren't happy with the audience figures, then they'll probably get a new showrunner before axing the show completely. Even if they do rest the show for a while, it'll still live on in audios/novels/comics so, no, the show's never going to be completely dead. I truly get where you come from but having not seen any of this series or very much of the original Jodie series am all for watching this series on Blu-ray as somehow I wanted this change I wanted this break am hearing from established history and handled right it could be a new rebirth to me actually being interested again in the TV incarnation of my was going to say favourite Timelord except he/she isn’t one -love it and I hope I will LOVE it I don't mind Chibnall changing established history, it's his writing that puts me off. The Timeless Child should have been a thrilling episode with all the elements in it, but to me it was bland and boring and I couldn't wait for it to be over. I'm not crazy about the Doctor being such an important part of Time Lord history (as opposed to a Time Lord who simply got bored and ran away to explore the universe), but I'd be far more enthusiastic about this revelation if I enjoyed the ride. And that's my problem with Chibnall's Who is that there's lots of interesting ideas and concepts thrown into the mix, but the execution doesn't do anything for me at all. Other people are enjoying it and I'm happy for them, but my enthusiasm for this era has gone now.
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Post by stcoop on Mar 4, 2020 14:56:08 GMT
I'd actually agree that the execution was terrible; a series finale in which the Doctor spends nearly the entire episode being a passive observer of events but as an idea itself I have no problem with it. Since she doesn't remember anything pre-Hartnell it doesn't change the character in any real way, while actually bringing some (hopefully never to be solved) mystery back to the character again. And until told otherwise I'm working on the assumption that as part of being turned back into a child she had the regeneration limit implanted as well.
Honestly, I'm just happy not to have to pretend that those were Morbius' faces any more, especially since it was quite clear from the dialogue that they weren't!
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Mar 4, 2020 15:05:10 GMT
Not Killed it No done something not needed Yes.I mean I've never cried out for The Other, Looms, and Houses to be done / explained, so why should I for Chibbs version of pre-Hartnell history. Regards mark687 Absolutely spot on
Chibnall wanted a BIG IDEA, fine. I have nothing against BIG IDEAs. But it needs to be one that interests the general audience whereas I fear this one leaves them cold. A showrunner can justify annoying the fans and rewriting established history if it is doing something worthwhile to take the show in a new direction and bring new fans/viewer on board. I don't think this does. I think you annoy the fans without any corresponding gains from the general viewership to offset the annoyed fans.
I can cope with Chibnall rewriting history - it can always be reconciled/retconned/explained by cleverer people than me. My biggest problem with the rewrite is that it is so backward looking and introspective, whereas the show needs to be forward looking and outward looking in order to appeal to the general audience and thrive.
I loved the lack of continuity in series 11 and thought it was a very healthy development after the Moffatt years.
As for the question in the title of this thread, all I can say is don't be so silly. 1989-2005 proved Doctor Who will never die. It may be rested, it may regenerate, but it will never die.
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Post by muckypup on Mar 4, 2020 15:14:44 GMT
I am amazed to be answering no to this but after being urged to watch latest series by my buddy........he seems to have found his feet from ep 4 onwards.......
And so has Jodie too.......
It’s took a while but am now glad to be proved wrong......
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Post by number13 on Mar 4, 2020 15:17:13 GMT
I can only guess what I'd have thought if I was still that young fan (it will be 50 years of Who for me next year ) but I think I'd probably have loved all the showy cyber-stuff in the previous episode, thought the 'Brendan' storyline was a bit dull - until the twist! - and then been really quite bored by half the finale and most of it would have gone right over my head. The Matrix? Tec-who? All those faces? Then I'd have enjoyed the creepy crazy Master and Cyber-Lords action bits.
As it was, I thought the showy cyber-stuff of the previous episode was good and the Brendan storyline was fascinating, but half the finale was boring - and half Doctorless. Oooh look, Jodie got a line to say and we're only about halfway through...
I didn't like what they did with the continuity, so the fan-stuff was wasted on me, despite presumably being in the target group all that material was aimed at (it sure wasn't for younger or casual viewers was it?) And I really don't like 'crazy Master' at all. His behaviour around the Doctor has become more than a bit - weird - imo.
But if I was still that young fan (or a casual viewer), being bored, expositioned at and/or baffled for half the finale wouldn't have been a good impression of the series to leave me with. At least they blew something up at the end! And there was a quarry, just like the old days!
On topic: of course 'Doctor Who' will live for ever, one way or another.
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Post by polly on Mar 4, 2020 17:48:59 GMT
I will do my best to be diplomatic.
To answer the question directly - no, I don't think Chibnall has killed Doctor Who. Whether you like what he's done or not, I don't think anyone can at this point. It's so established an institution that it would be very difficult to kill it outright. If it were going to die, really die, it would have died in its cradle and not 57 years in. His era might end up nearly universally scorned like Season 24, or it might not. Either way the franchise will continue to have fans in some capacity.
Personally, I have not watched anything of his. I left when Capaldi did. I had been growing increasingly frustrated with the new series since Series 6, and being as opposed as I was to gender swapping the Doctor, it was a clean stopping point. So most of what's gone on since then I've heard second hand.
I hate most of it. I hate what has become of Doctor Who. And I very much dislike this retcon in particular. But it's not just Who.
I hate that Star Trek has slid ever further into death and destruction and misery every week. I hate that the new Twilight Zone is so poorly written and so vulgar. And if I cared more about Star Wars, I'd probably hate what happened to the sequel trilogy as well, but in that case I had the good sense to abandon ship after seeing Force Awakens at the theater. In my opinion, what's been going on lately isn't updating for the modern era, it's borderline vandalism because it's done with so little care for the past.
And before anybody says anything, I do not care what the political leanings of anyone involved in these franchises are.
But what I hate most of all is the way that fandom has turned on each other. I hate that frustration with the direction of whatever franchise is so frequently met with accusations of sexism or all kinds of other horrible things. Because that's bull. I hate angry people on YouTube who are so upset about what's been done to their shows they won't give anything a fair chance anymore. And I hate that people who are supposed to be professionals - writers, producers, actors, whatever - will go out in the press and parrot rude accusations and blame the fans whenever a decision of theirs is ill-received. Or more sadly still, getting into Twitter fights with random people over it.
I don't begrudge any of you for loving the hell out of something I despise. I ask for the same courtesy in return. Because at the end of the day we're all fans and fans nitpick and debate and that is okay. I just want fandom stop being so stressed out constantly because it's no fun walking on eggshells all the damn time.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2020 19:14:31 GMT
I don't begrudge any of you for loving the hell out of something I despise. I ask for the same courtesy in return. Because at the end of the day we're all fans and fans nitpick and debate and that is okay. I just want fandom stop being so stressed out constantly because it's no fun walking on eggshells all the damn time. There we go! That's the attitude to have.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2020 19:20:00 GMT
I have a simple complaint with Chibnall, and it's one I have with a lot of writers of all sorts of things. I frequently got into arguments with a close friend who is a big fan of China Mievelle about this and I'll use that as explanation. Mievelle creates a fascinating world, one that has me oohing and aahing, but the people in it could just get hit by falling rocks and I do not care. Chibnall has a little of that going on.
And I'll echo what is said above, somewhere there is a Doctor Who fan enthralled by all this amazing stuff. And why not?
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