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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 7, 2020 21:04:42 GMT
FWIW, I’ve just dabbled with a Hinchliffe Doctor fanfic, pushing into ideas that woudon’t fit with the Hartnell line of Doctors but still remain fundamentally Doctorish - it opens new creative avenues (similar to the Unbound Dcotors IMO).
With a wheezing, groaning sound the dull metal cylinder materialised in a dull metal room. The door inset within the cylinder ground open and a man with a patrician’s face and laughing eyes stepped out, dragging a wooden chest behind him. This was the famous, or depending on your perspective infamous, Time Lord adventurer known as the Doctor. He was dressed in a hard wearing tweed suit and riding boots still covered in faintly luminous blue mud. Upon his forehead were a pair of driving goggles and his face showed the flushed excitement of a man both in his element and who was glad to be home. Standing demurely by the door, his arms folded neatly behind his back was the house servitor and the Doctor’s valet, a tall robot with a flat, thick disc for a head that the Doctor had named Jeeves. “A successful expedition, sir?” Jeeves asked as the Doctor acknowledged him with a nod of his head. “Fascinating geology Jeeves, even something that’s almost Metebelian in structure!” While The Doctor’s enthusiasm tended to sweep up those around him, Jeeves was one of the few exceptions, his programmed was strictly practical. “Jeeves, can you please see that the Ship is recharged? I need to run a bath before I begin to smell deeply primordial,” if it was possible, Jeeves would have looked sheepish, “about that sir, you have a guest.” “Jeeves,” the Doctor admonished, “you know I don’t like visitors so soon after an expedition.” “I know sir, it’s hardwired into my matrix along with the recipe for Black Forest Gateau and your sartorial specifications.” The Doctor harrumphed. He had his routines, he was reluctant to call them rituals, but first amongst them was a desire for privacy after returning from the Wild Cosmos, more than once did he need to recover from injuries, including the rare regeneration and more importantly he desired nothing more than a long hot bath upon returning home. “Sir, it’s the Lord President.” “Well…. That’s certainly a worthy interruption indeed. Where?” “I escorted him to the Southern Morning Room,” Jeeves said as the Doctor stomped off.
The Doctor was, ironically given how he styled himself with a title rather than his given name, not a man who had much time for people who rested on titles alone. Were it the weaselesque Lord Riverhaven or fatuous Lady Hearthome he would have sent them on their way with as politely curt a word he could imagine. But he was the Lord of Prydon Manor, and one man on all Greater Gallifrey could make his life a whole deal less Lordly, stripping him of his rank and privileges on a whim, it was the Lord President. He disdained almost all of the trappings of his Lordship, but the freedom to own a Timeship and to leave the realms of Gallifrey were much appreciated by the Doctor. He had always feared the day he had to choose between his freedom and his titles, because it was no choice at all and he was worried he’d not be fast enough to make it to the Ship before the guards came for him. So it was with some trepidation, in full knowledge he was covered in the dirt and mud of an alien world and stinking more of nature than of a man of his rank should smell, that he entered the Southern Morning Room and greeted the Lord President with a dignified bow, “Lord President Morbius, its an honour.”
Lord President of Greater Gallifrey Morbius carried himself with all the dignity such a grand title heralded. He was straight of back, clear of eye and taller even than the Doctor. His only reaction to the Doctor’s outward appearance and odour was a wryly raised eyebrow. He wore the pure white robes of his office, only the elaborate brocade in brilliant silver and sapphire blue thread suggesting a hint of the President’s personality. “I apologise for the hour of this visit Lord,” he paused for a moment, “my apologies, you style yourself as “The Doctor” now, don’t you?” The Doctor was familiar with facing snide disdain at his chosen appellation, so simply nodded. “Yes My Lord,” was his careful reply. “Why if I may ask?” Not the response the Doctor was expecting. Normally people either continued using his birth name or formally employed his Courtly title of “Lord Prydon”. Few Gallifreyans were curious enough to wonder why. “The names we have are more often than not given to us. At birth, or at election, my Lord President. I’ve chosen a name that has meaning to me, a name I earned. I am a Doctor of geology and archaeology after all.” “Also a student of architecture, several of the sciences and botany. A well rounded academic career.” There was praise in his voice, the Doctor was surprised that the Lord President had taken the time to research his past and was therefore wrong footed when Morbius added, “if lowly awarded, academically. You barely passed either of your doctorates and have at least one degree that I’m told you were awarded in order to simply get rid of you!” Morbius chuckled. The Doctor was fiercely proud of his achievements, and bristled at Morbius’ tone.
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Post by doctorkernow on Mar 10, 2020 23:46:05 GMT
Hello again. Ho hum. The usual suspects are crowing most heartily about the abysmal ratings. I do think that as showrunner, Mr Chibnall obviously has carte blanche to do what he likes with the show. However, it is clear that series 12 has not really been taken on board by the casual viewer. When Antiques Roadshow and Countryfile do better than Doctor Who then I would suggest that perhaps a rethink is needed. I suspect the ratings will increase for the Daleks at Christmas/New Year. But I feel that next series they do need to look at what went well:
Generally, pacing and writing were not as clunky although we still had that huge piece of exposition in Timeless Children. The regular cast were still not really developed much but were used more effectively in some stories. Finally, Doctor 13 had some material she could get her teeth into, she became more defined as a Doctor.
There were some very effective chills in Can You Hear Me? and Haunting of Villa Diodati
The new Master is an excellent foil for Jodie Whittaker's Doctor Jo Martin's Doctor is another great piece of casting, she has real gravitas and is a complete contrast to Jodie's Doctor A proper historical with the danger coming from being trapped in history would be good, Demons of the Punjab is still my favourite episode from this era. Bringing back the Judoon was great because they were very effective and served a proper purpose to the story. The CyberMasters were completely ridiculous for me and the much better concept of a CyberDavros in Ashed was really effective but unfortunately totally wasted. As the BBC pointed out in their rather exasperated statement, as fans we can bluster and rant all we like they produce the programme and can stop making it just as easily. However, if you totally alienate your fanbase, with the casual viewer seemingly turned off by the stories at present, it could make audiences even smaller. As for me, I agree with Stubagful, it's a bit like Stockholm syndrome. Doctor Who will always have me in its power. I may not like every story, but its still my show that I have enjoyed for years and still enjoy bits of now. I cannot let it go. There is still nothing else like it. A new story, new cast, new adventure every week with all its idiosyncracies I still love it. While I feel there are weaknesses in the current set, I tune in and enjoy it if it's good and laugh at it if it's bad. Pretty much as I have always done! Only Season 11's Battle of Rav an Kolos had me completely bored out of my mind.
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Post by tuigirl on Mar 11, 2020 8:27:41 GMT
Hello again. Ho hum. The usual suspects are crowing most heartily about the abysmal ratings. I do think that as showrunner, Mr Chibnall obviously has carte blanche to do what he likes with the show. However, it is clear that series 12 has not really been taken on board by the casual viewer. When Antiques Roadshow and Countryfile do better than Doctor Who then I would suggest that perhaps a rethink is needed. I suspect the ratings will increase for the Daleks at Christmas/New Year. But I feel that next series they do need to look at what went well:
Generally, pacing and writing were not as clunky although we still had that huge piece of exposition in Timeless Children. The regular cast were still not really developed much but were used more effectively in some stories. Finally, Doctor 13 had some material she could get her teeth into, she became more defined as a Doctor.
There were some very effective chills in Can You Hear Me? and Haunting of Villa Diodati
The new Master is an excellent foil for Jodie Whittaker's Doctor Jo Martin's Doctor is another great piece of casting, she has real gravitas and is a complete contrast to Jodie's Doctor A proper historical with the danger coming from being trapped in history would be good, Demons of the Punjab is still my favourite episode from this era. Bringing back the Judoon was great because they were very effective and served a proper purpose to the story. The CyberMasters were completely ridiculous for me and the much better concept of a CyberDavros in Ashed was really effective but unfortunately totally wasted. As the BBC pointed out in their rather exasperated statement, as fans we can bluster and rant all we like they produce the programme and can stop making it just as easily. However, if you totally alienate your fanbase, with the casual viewer seemingly turned off by the stories at present, it could make audiences even smaller. As for me, I agree with Stubagful, it's a bit like Stockholm syndrome. Doctor Who will always have me in its power. I may not like every story, but its still my show that I have enjoyed for years and still enjoy bits of now. I cannot let it go. There is still nothing else like it. A new story, new cast, new adventure every week with all its idiosyncracies I still love it. While I feel there are weaknesses in the current set, I tune in and enjoy it if it's good and laugh at it if it's bad. Pretty much as I have always done! Only Season 11's Battle of Rav an Kolos had me completely bored out of my mind. Stockolm syndrome. Yeah, this actually explains a lot.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Mar 12, 2020 19:09:42 GMT
This nonsense has got to 3 pages?
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 12, 2020 19:46:27 GMT
This nonsense has got to 3 pages? And it's not like anyone has even addressed the elephant in the room that the War Chief and the Master are obviously the same person. I know, right?
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 12, 2020 19:57:06 GMT
This nonsense has got to 3 pages? And it's not like anyone has even addressed the elephant in the room that the War Chief and the Master are obviously the same person. I know, right? In the words of a Captain: I understood that reference.
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Post by number13 on Mar 12, 2020 21:56:58 GMT
This nonsense has got to 3 pages? And it's not like anyone has even addressed the elephant in the room that the War Chief and the Master are obviously the same person. I know, right? Well obviously and it's not even controversial any more. They are both Time Lords so they're both the Doctor so, obviously...
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 12, 2020 23:11:09 GMT
I think this article does a decent job at illustrating some of the nuance around how the BBC may be gauging S12's success, and what this may say for the future. Changes in viewing habits, an exchange of size for consistency in ratings and how the BBC are even funding the series not being as one-to-one as before. www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-10/doctor-who-ratings-explained/
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 13, 2020 10:45:25 GMT
I think this article does a decent job at illustrating some of the nuance around how the BBC may be gauging S12's success, and what this may say for the future. Changes in viewing habits, an exchange of size for consistency in ratings and how the BBC are even funding the series not being as one-to-one as before. www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-10/doctor-who-ratings-explained/It does mention that it’s the fourth-most-watched show on the BBC. That really should make peo0e think a bit harder about what’s going on with ratings in this day and age.
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Post by doctorkernow on Mar 13, 2020 11:40:24 GMT
Hello again.
The big difference between now and 1989 is that the BBC is fully behind Doctor Who. They are not scheduling it against Coronation Street. It has a good slot on Sunday evening, though I still prefer Saturday as Doctor Who day, I can understand why it was done.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 12:45:31 GMT
I think this article does a decent job at illustrating some of the nuance around how the BBC may be gauging S12's success, and what this may say for the future. Changes in viewing habits, an exchange of size for consistency in ratings and how the BBC are even funding the series not being as one-to-one as before. www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-10/doctor-who-ratings-explained/It does mention that it’s the fourth-most-watched show on the BBC. That really should make peo0e think a bit harder about what’s going on with ratings in this day and age. Well, a bit of context - it doesn't say it's the 4th top - only for ages 18-34 and even then only in 2019. So while that demo prefer to watch Peaky Blinders, Dark Materials et al that they ARE tuning in for, other older groups are watching Call The Midwife, Death In Paradise and the like. Who isn't a top 4 BBC show now. There's no way to dress it up by saying the show is getting good ratings. They're "fine" but the finale, the one they did actually put press, build up and publicity into getting the lowest ratings of the season, and the lowest +7s since the show came back..not a trend the BBC will want to see continue. It's clearly MILES away from cancellation talk though - they'd almost certainly try flipping lead actor and showrunner before it came to that. Even then I don't think there's been enough of a decline to mandate anything as major as that. I've said since it was announced the "fam" were staying on that, subjective opinion aside, the show's ratings have always dipped when there's no new recurring character be it a Doctor or companion. There needs to be a hook for audiences to come back. A show that's been back on for 15 years needs *something* to get the hype up. RTD knew it better than anyone. Shows like Call The Midwife or Death In Paradise don't - they're cosy, safe shows that have older audiences who even if they are net-savvy and have hundreds of channels will still look to BBC One or ITV for their big shows year on year. That article does make a point I've made since 2018 that seems blindingly obvious to me but apparently not to some media outlets - S11 cannot be used as a metric of ratings. Too many tuned in just to rubberneck over the "controversy" and see what this female Doctor thing was all about after all. It totally skewed average ratings and the like. It can't be used to praise the show but likewise can't be used to say "well, it's lost 6 million..." - no, it hasn't. About 4 million of them never watched the show outside Christmas or the height of the Tennant era anyway. S11 clearly saw a course correct afterwards in terms of the storytelling. The BBC send out surveys after every ep and they surely must have gotten lots of "more old monsters", "The Master", "Gallifrey" type "what do you want to see?" responses as Chibnall didn't just alter his vision for the show, he did a total 180 on it. With even more time to assess what worked and what didn't between now and shooting S13 there's time to work out some issues. With a new companion(s) then we'll get some fresh blood too. If the Coronavirus does spread into the Autumn then filming may be delayed too and thus the transmission of S13. Then by then the countdown will be on to the 60th. I know from the same person who told me about the last two gap years (that I was called out on here before the BBC then announced them!) there has been discussion over resting the show after the 60th, leaving people hopefuly hungry for more. This time though the goal would 100% be to come back in a few years, so we're not talking 1989. It's talk - and only talk, I should stress - that is dedicated to preserving the show so that it's around for it's 100th and that people aren't saying it should be put out of it's misery while it staggers on amid public and even fan disinterest. No-one wants that. I love McCoy's last season mostly but if the people have stopped watching...it doesn't matter how good your show is. We saw that a bit this year. Fans (OK, divisive finale aside) seemed much more engaged by it yet the ratings have gone to levels lower than the end of the Capaldi era which was regarded as a disappointment ratings wise for sure. Moffat once said the BBC would leave DW alone if the show gets 5mill viewers overall. Timeless Children didn't. What's more concerning than the overnights is that Who used to be a lot stronger on Catchup. Less people now are bothered about watching if they miss it live. Something has to change there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 13:12:15 GMT
Perfectly reasonable points made here by davygallagher. Its not a case of whether we like of dislike the show in discussing this, but the fact that people are switching off week by week, irrespective of whether it is good. When casual viewers switch over after Countryfile and tune back into BBC1 for Antiques Roadshow/Call the Midwife, there seems to be a plateau occurring, with it being raised online that the viewing figures drop further mid-episode. I would like to see this data myself though to be sure this is not a claim. But no. I myself am happy that many like it and I do not wish to add weight to the obsessive haters online who are getting OTT about it all. I really don't have a prescription for the Doctor regarding the way forward. The answer is perhaps in asking the kids what they want to see, and when/how they would prefer to watch it. Younger viewers are the hook that keeps the family watching and I suspect the grown up fan community is smaller than many would admit. As I have kept saying on this forum, I am not the key demographic viewer for the current series so why should I dictate any future direction?
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 13, 2020 13:13:04 GMT
There's the problem also of secrecy/surprise vs actually doing some press and doing it right. Absolute secrecy isn't going to work (unless you're David Lynch and it's Twin Peaks The Return), but getting folk invested in watching the next episode without trailerbombing it. Easier said than done obviously.
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shutupbanks
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There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 13, 2020 14:37:19 GMT
All valid points, Davy, but Who is still rating well enough in terms of “programmes of the week” that we don’t have to be seriously worried about its immediate future. Going by the change in style of this season to the last, I’d say that The Chib is paying attention to the audience and making changes that really matter. I think too that we are agreed on essentials but are arguing over the details.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 14:50:28 GMT
All valid points, Davy, but Who is still rating well enough in terms of “programmes of the week” that we don’t have to be seriously worried about its immediate future. Going by the change in style of this season to the last, I’d say that The Chib is paying attention to the audience and making changes that really matter. I think too that we are agreed on essentials but are arguing over the details. It's immediate future is absolutely fine. Yet the changes that were made have resulted - and this may have happened anyway, we can't know - in the lowest rated ep since 1989 in Timeless Children with a few not far above it. It's so very difficult to say what can be done, if there was an obvious answer it would already be being done, but I think perhaps outside of event eps, specials, new Docs etc it's perhaps time to reassess where "good" ratings are for the show. Which isn't unreasonable, I'd say. The soaps often get less than a quarter of the ratings they did in the 90s and early 2000s but no-one ever mentions Coronation St or Eastenders coming off air. The paradigm has perhaps just shifted and the general public, broadly speaking, just may not be as fussed about a show that has been on air for 15 years this month. For many they may have grown out of the show or just felt that they've seen what they need from it and don't get anything new so they've got other faves. Whatever the reasons things will 100% be rejigged next season companion wise anyway. Chibnall and the BBC (increasingly if they think the show isn't doing what it should..) will now have plenty of time to go back to the drawing board.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 15:10:35 GMT
Doctor Who didn't die when it was off the TV... so it's not going to die because of an episode that some people (including me) didn't like. The show is bigger than one storyline, one showrunner or one Doctor even.
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Post by idle453 on Mar 13, 2020 15:21:34 GMT
Full disclosure first, I personally have seen too many things I love get cancelled and for me, it's worth it to put up with poorer episodes than none. It can always get better. Plus, there's a part of me that is sad that Doctor Who became as big as it did with the relaunch. I've found that as a property attracts more attention, it also attracts more bad attention and therefor tries to please people instead of telling the story the writer wants. I will also admit that I felt and still feel it was unnecessary, if not wrong, to change the Doctor to a female. The main reason I heard given was "why not" or "it's time and overdue." Neither of these arguments has ever been a guaranteed winning argument to me. IMHO, why not should not be the reason for a storyline; that should be why. As far as the it's time argument, what is the proper timeframe to change the gender of a character. Have there been any other instances where the same character suddenly changed sex? (Please note, this does not refer to complete reboots or reconceptualizations like the 2016 Ghostbusters, which I liked. This is only about continuations.) I include Missy in this concept also.
With all that being said, I'm still really enjoying the show with only Orphan 55 really not working for me due to the clunky way the message was delivered, not the message itself. I enjoy Jodi's doctor and don't have a problem with three companions.
What I am really curious about is the effect the constant bad reviews (whether justified or not) have had on the ratings. I don't often watch youtube reviews, or in fact many reviews at all, but I do have them suggested to me. It seemed to me this season and last, that every week there would be a group of reviewers who struggled to get their "Doctor who is dying and Chibnall is the devil" videos on line first. If you are a casual viewer and the only commenters you see tell you this is horrible and getting worse, especially when they say they are lifelong fans, how long before you won't even bother watching. Sort of if the fans hate it, it can't be any good. (It's kind of funny considering the same sort of casual viewer used to make fun of doctor who fans as being niche or geek and not worth worrying about. But I digress.) To use the 2016 Ghostbusters aas an example. By the time it came out, I had heard for over a year that it was unfunny, SJW PC crap and terribly written and acted. I am convinced that most of those comments were from people who either had not seen any of it (this was before the final film existed) or seemed to take it as a personal attack against them and the original movie. After a year of such criticism, the expectations were really low and, surprise, it had poor attendance. I went because my son loves Ghostbusters and you know what? We all liked and enjoyed the movie although not as much as the originals. By the time season 12 rolled around, I had been hearing over two years of how bad the show was or was going to be. if I didn't love the show, why would I have bothered to watch? I think there are also, unfortunately, some viewers (casual or otherwise) that see all the complaints and think that they must be wrong if they don't hate it. I don't know how much effect this had but I feel it could be significant. (Snarky aside:If nerdrotic actually does quit buying anything Doctor Who related (Big Finish, comics, books, DVDs etc., maybe I won't get weekly notifications of his channel saying the show is over. Yes, I watched his last review to see what he had to say.)
As Far as the "killing" of Doctor Who, I feel most of the complaints I've seen about it destroying 57 years of continuity either miss the point or are trying to find justification for not liking it which should be a good enough justification to not watch it. I've seen people claim that this made the Doctor a god and more important than any timelord. While she may be more important from a biological standpoint, she is not a god since nobody knew this history. No current timelord new how important she was. I doubt many, if any, even suspected she made have had an incarnation before Hartnell. I've seen claims that it made the Smith Finale unnecessary. And while technically he might have regenerated eventually without the extra cycle, I don't think it changes anything important about the episode. Clara didn't know and wholeheartedly meant what she told Gallifrey. The doctor thought that he would die and was holding out to save Christmas for as long as possible. The timelords who sent the extra cycle, thought they had too. Only in a meta sense was the whole thing unnecessary. If I saw someone get bit by a cobra, I would administer antivenom. It doesn't matter that I didn't know he was immune to cobra venom, it would still have been the proper, if unnecessary action. I've heard it destroys what Hartnell did to help create the show. HOW? He is still the first doctor we saw. Without what he did, the show would not have lasted and that is still true even if there are previous incarnations we haven't seen. I've seen it claimed it destroyed the character of the Doctor when the whole point of the Ruth's reappearance was that the past didn't matter as much as who you are now.
I will admit I have to create/accept a few explanations for this information to fit. First Ruth's TARDIS, which I believe may not be the same as the Doctor's was a police box because it had turned into one to blend in before it got buried. I don't think the chameleon circuit would change the appearance of the TARDIS just because it got physically moved. It didn't stay a police box after Jodi took it. Second Ruth did not actually say "I'm the Doctor." She said she was whatever her name was and the TARDIS translated it so that Jodi and the audience heard the word Doctor. Third, I'll admit it is entirely possible the Master is lying. whether this is the plan or gets retconned to be so. Fourth, Hartnell plays the character who first identifies as the doctor and had no idea he was not the first. With these four caveats, most of the issues are resolved simply and nothing about the canon or story of the show really gets affected.
Finally, I find it strange that one episode destroyed the whole show when the christmas speical could explain away some of the more troublesome parts which would literally be the next episode. Not saying it will but it could. (Sort of like if the Master had told the Doctor at the end of one episode "You are a Dalek!", everyone freaked out, and the next episode started with "Oh Doctor, you should see your face. I'm lying, of course." Also while we all know the "lore" of the show, remember that for three years the Doctor had one heart and no regenerations. That simple idea must have been tough to decide on since, as far as I know, no non-shapeshifter had ever been replaced by a different actor who acted different, was essentially a different person, but was the same character. Prior to this, Sherlock Holmes was played by many different actors, but none of them were a different incarnation. They were all playing the same incarnation, sort of like Hartnell, Hurndall, and Bradley. Also, the twelve regenerations was probably seen as a throwaway line which was a number large enough to not have to worry about reaching the end and small enough to forestall questions of why the Doctor was ever cautious if he would just regenerate.
Sorry to go on so long but I feel that this is probably the only forum where people whether they disagree with me or not will consider what I have to say. And if you consider it and think I'm wrong, no hard feelings.
IDLE
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 14, 2020 1:07:34 GMT
Normally I wouldn't ask this, but I can't be alone in wondering: unless they're being satirical, I would actually like to hear from the 5 yes voters as to why Timeless Children, of all stories, in all of this franchise's history, is the one, the absolute point of no return.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Mar 14, 2020 6:10:45 GMT
I've decided to say funk it, and I watched the final 3 episodes. I am ANGRY about the Mary Shelley episode, but in regards to the finale, that one is odd. The Master was the best part, obviously, but overall I found them quite boring when he wasn't on screen. I don't think it is as series destroying as I was led to believe, but they should change it to being The Master who's the timeless child... It would make more sense being he doesn't seem to stay dead for long. They also need to fix the whole Mary thing... That bothers me the most... Like ridiculously so! Wait a minute, you started this thread/poll before you'd actually watched the entire season? Seems very much like the actions of an entitled troll.
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Post by kurumais on Mar 19, 2020 5:24:30 GMT
Pardon my French, but this is bullsh*t. You can't say that because the show in its current incarnation isn't to your liking that it is dead. Hartnell's Who was very different to Pertwee's Who which was in turn very different to McCoy's. The show has changed because television and entertainment have changed. It's adapting to the changing times and surviving. It's natural for it to shed/ gain fans across these times. If it loses some whinging man-children (and it is almost always men) then I only hope the door hits them on the arse on the way out. And that it's a big, heavy door. i think the low ratings might have to with the sow is dead thing
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