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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 4:28:52 GMT
In the vein of the Serial Swap challenge, where Doctors exchange stories between one another (e.g. the Third Doctor battles The War Machines while the First Doctor uncovers The Green Death), what if each incumbent incarnation had remained on for one more/less season than in our timeline? From a storytelling (or production) stance, what alterations could have been made to individual stories or entire production blocks to accommodate the immediate change? What could have changed going forward?
For example: If the Fourth Doctor had remained on for Season 19?
I can see Time-Flight being shifted back in the broadcast order for a final climactic battle with the Cybermen in Earthshock. Severely wounded by the Cyberleader while defending his companions, the Doctor's unable to reset the controls before he collapses to the TARDIS floor. Nyssa and Tegan watch in horror as the freighter impacts with the planet. History is saved at the cost of young Adric's life, but amidst this tragedy, a miracle of Time Lord science is performed. A new life is born from the ashes of the old. The Fourth Doctor regenerates into his fifth incarnation...
Needing time to process the events above Earth, the new Doctor drops his companions off in modern day Amsterdam, while he returns the freighter's survivors back to their own home timezone. Tegan and Nyssa fall in with Tegan's cousin, Colin, and his friend, Robin at a booked-out youth hostel and decide to spend the day abroad while they wait for the Doctor to return. En route from the 26th century, the Time Lord in question sets to work repairing the console. However, as he adjusts to his new self (with assistance from the TARDIS), he's attacked by an unknown force stretching through the Arc of Infinity.
Lacking the ability to defend himself and finding his ship no sanctuary, the Doctor sets course for the one people he feels can help -- his own, on the planet Gallifrey. But, even with the assistance of an old acquaintance, Damon, he discovers a terrible truth. His regeneration is failing and not in any manner previously seen among his own kind. His new life may not be his own for much longer...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 7:12:04 GMT
In the vein of the Serial Swap challenge, where Doctors exchange stories between one another (e.g. for the Third Doctor in the The War Machines for the First Doctor in The Green Death), what if each incumbent incarnation had remained on for one more or one less season? From a storytelling or production stance, what changes could have been made to individual stories or entire production blocks to accommodate the immediate change? What could have changed going forward? For example: If the Fourth Doctor had remained on for Season 19?I can see Time-Flight being shifted back for a climactic final confrontation with the Cybermen in Earthshock. Severely wounded by the Cyberleader protecting his travelling companions, the Doctor collapses before he can free the console's controls. The freighter impacts with the planet. History is saved, at the cost of young Adric's life, but amidst this tragedy, a miracle of Time Lord science is performed. A new life is born. The Fourth Doctor regenerates into his fifth incarnation... Needing time to process the events above Earth, the Doctor his companions off in Amsterdam on Earth, while he returns the survivors of the freighter back to their home time. Tegan and Nyssa fall in with Tegan's cousin, Colin, and his friend, Robin, at a booked out youth hostel and spend the day abroad. Returning from the twenty-sixth century, the Doctor sets to repairing damage to the console. However, as he adjusts to his new self (with aid from the TARDIS), the Doctor is attacked by a force from the Arc of Infinity. Unable to defend himself and finding his ship no sanctuary, he sets course for the one people who can help -- his homeworld of Gallifrey. But, even with the assistance of an old acquaintance, Damon, he discovers his regeneration is failing in a way never before seen in his own kind... I think the most obvious - because we know from the showrunner in question that it was actually pitched to the departing Doctor - is Series 5 of the revived series. When Tennant was still on the fence about leaving and Moffat had been named RTD's replacement, Moff came up with the idea of Leadworth, Amelia etc etc pretty much as is. The only difference is when young Amy met the Doctor he would be injured and indeed dying, then when he showed up after all the years she doubted herself (the raggedy Doctor) he'd actually be the Tennant Doc from earlier in his timeline, not woulnded and we'd catch back up to his regen by series end. To play this "What If?" we do have to kinda ignore behind the scenes events, Tom wasn't wanted by S19's pitches and ratings with him had stagnated. Ditto Troughton who's Season 6 was a creative high but nearly got the show cancelled the ratings were so bad. Pertwee's wage demands, to give another example, meant he wasn't coming back for S12 regardless. Colin we know pitched staying for another season before volunteering to leave and so on so it's probably smoother to take any and all behind the scenes "real life" out the equation and imagine everything would be hunky dory. Ditto things like the character of Harry - he wouldn't have been in S12 but for the original idea that Ian Marter was needed to do the younger man's heavy lifting as the original idea for the Fourth Doc was a much older and slight man (even, famously, Mr Pastry himself Richard Hearne) so if Pertwee did S12 it would be Harry-less in reality. Colin getting another year is easier to imagine especially since we have so many Lost Stories with him. He could do the fabled S23 with Nightmare Fair etc, then the Trial in Year 3. Again this would require ignoring events IRL like Saward's actions and Robert Holme's death but it's the easiest era to imagine that extra year for, I think. Then - again with the benefit of knowing so much about the lost S27 - we can still imagine Sylv's third year being the Raine one though honestly I don't think creatively that run would have been as wonderful a final bow as S26 as we got it. Troughton getting an extra year on Earth - in our imagined reality where he was welcome to stay to usher in the colour era - would be something I'd have loved to see. Barry Letts ideas for a more Quatermass tone melding with Troughton's more vibrant, fun sensibilities may not seem like a good fit but with Dicks there to lend a hand and Pat such a versatile actor I think there could have been a toning down of The Doctor, explained by him being sombre due to his exile. It'd be easy enough to write away too - his initial punishment is exile as it was in The War Games but he wasn't forced to "change appearance". His actions in S7 still displease the Timelords and they force him to regenerate into Pertwee as was. The trickle down effect of this would be imagining Pertwee in S12 which is easy to do as none of S12 was written for Tom's more comedic style but mostly with Jon in mind anyway. It's very easy to imagine Pertwee in any of that year's run, I think. Pertwee in Genesis? That'd be fascinating. |
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lidar2
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Post by lidar2 on Mar 10, 2020 9:16:10 GMT
It's an interesting one to think about.
Season 4 with Hartnell is hard to imagine, what jars most is the lack of the Troughton/Hines chemistry. The more comedic aspects of the Highlanders/Underwater Menace may not have happened (can't see Hartnell dressing as a woman, etc.)
Season 7 with Troughton would have been just like the Invasion - not hard to imagine at all. The Brig would have found Troughton more exasperating, but Troughton would have been less rude to him.
I don't think Season 12 would have worked as well with Pertwee - he couldn't have pulled off the indomitable speech in Ark in Space or the Do I have the right? speech in Genesis anything like as well as Tom did. On the other hand, Robot is basically a Pertwee story and steering Nerva at the end of Revenge and fighting a duel with Styre would have been much more Pertwee things than Baker things
Season 19 with Tom would have been like episodes 3 and 4 of Logopolis. I don't think Four would have let Adric die though.
Season 22 with Peter would not have been that different, other than a more likeable Doctor and less bickering with Peri, as the violence was definitely the direction JNT and Saward were moving in.
Season 24 with Colin would not have been that different, what is more interesting is to imagine seasons 24-26 with Colin if he had never been sacked.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 13:01:07 GMT
I think the most obvious - because we know from the showrunner in question that it was actually pitched to the departing Doctor - is Series 5 of the revived series. When Tennant was still on the fence about leaving and Moffat had been named RTD's replacement, Moff came up with the idea of Leadworth, Amelia etc etc pretty much as is. The only difference is when young Amy met the Doctor he would be injured and indeed dying, then when he showed up after all the years she doubted herself (the raggedy Doctor) he'd actually be the Tennant Doc from earlier in his timeline, not woulnded and we'd catch back up to his regen by series end. To play this "What If?" we do have to kinda ignore behind the scenes events, Tom wasn't wanted by S19's pitches and ratings with him had stagnated. Ditto Troughton who's Season 6 was a creative high but nearly got the show cancelled the ratings were so bad. Pertwee's wage demands, to give another example, meant he wasn't coming back for S12 regardless. Colin we know pitched staying for another season before volunteering to leave and so on so it's probably smoother to take any and all behind the scenes "real life" out the equation and imagine everything would be hunky dory. Ditto things like the character of Harry - he wouldn't have been in S12 but for the original idea that Ian Marter was needed to do the younger man's heavy lifting as the original idea for the Fourth Doc was a much older and slight man (even, famously, Mr Pastry himself Richard Hearne) so if Pertwee did S12 it would be Harry-less in reality. Colin getting another year is easier to imagine especially since we have so many Lost Stories with him. He could do the fabled S23 with Nightmare Fair etc, then the Trial in Year 3. Again this would require ignoring events IRL like Saward's actions and Robert Holme's death but it's the easiest era to imagine that extra year for, I think. Then - again with the benefit of knowing so much about the lost S27 - we can still imagine Sylv's third year being the Raine one though honestly I don't think creatively that run would have been as wonderful a final bow as S26 as we got it. Troughton getting an extra year on Earth - in our imagined reality where he was welcome to stay to usher in the colour era - would be something I'd have loved to see. Barry Letts ideas for a more Quatermass tone melding with Troughton's more vibrant, fun sensibilities may not seem like a good fit but with Dicks there to lend a hand and Pat such a versatile actor I think there could have been a toning down of The Doctor, explained by him being sombre due to his exile. It'd be easy enough to write away too - his initial punishment is exile as it was in The War Games but he wasn't forced to "change appearance". His actions in S7 still displease the Timelords and they force him to regenerate into Pertwee as was. The trickle down effect of this would be imagining Pertwee in S12 which is easy to do as none of S12 was written for Tom's more comedic style but mostly with Jon in mind anyway. It's very easy to imagine Pertwee in any of that year's run, I think. Pertwee in Genesis? That'd be fascinating. I can just see the Second Doctor getting mellower as the season goes on. Little things like the Third Doctor's curt remark about the Silurians in Ambassadors being moderated with a tired whicker and the wave of an apologetic hand. At first, he's all bounce and smiles as we know him. The exile's a temporary delay, barely an inconvenience really, but it slowly begins to creep in that maybe perhaps he's stuck here now. Wouldn't it be a great irony if the Time Lords had decided to punish him on a technicality for Inferno? Escaping from their world back into ours, he encounters a figure in the void. Shapeless. Breathless. Something quite inhuman that splits into three and materialises in full. Between the tick and the tock of eternity, members of the Time Lords, who have snatched him up to exact their punishment for the breaking of his exile. That coma upon his return is, in reality, part of the new charges. He'll be given one last bout to end the Inferno Project before his regeneration, but it's already started, so there's few moments to say goodbye. It'd cast an interesting light on Terror of the Autons as a debut. It wouldn't be too hard to suspect that the Master was a test on the part of the Time Lords to ensure this new incarnation is on his best behaviour. It would've been really interesting to see the Doctor's initial discussions with Davros being played as one of his "moments of charm" a la Planet of the Daleks. Only for it to be rather grotesquely subverted when Davros reveals his lust for power. I know we'd have to cast most of the behind-the-scenes stuff to the wind, but with the departure of Pertwee at the end of Season 12... I rather like the idea that instead of holding over Terror of the Zygons, they stuck with it, satisfied that the allure of a new Doctor would entice viewers to return. It'd make for one heck of a finale. Then again, it's not too shabby a debut for the new Doctor either. It's an interesting one to think about. Season 4 with Hartnell is hard to imagine, what jars most is the lack of the Troughton/Hines chemistry. The more comedic aspects of the Highlanders/Underwater Menace may not have happened (can't see Hartnell dressing as a woman, etc.)
Season 7 with Troughton would have been just like the Invasion - not hard to imagine at all. The Brig would have found Troughton more exasperating, but Troughton would have been less rude to him. I don't think Season 12 would have worked as well with Pertwee - he couldn't have pulled off the indomitable speech in Ark in Space or the Do I have the right? speech in Genesis anything like as well as Tom did. On the other hand, Robot is basically a Pertwee story and steering Nerva at the end of Revenge and fighting a duel with Styre would have been much more Pertwee things than Baker things Season 19 with Tom would have been like episodes 3 and 4 of Logopolis. I don't think Four would have let Adric die though. Season 22 with Peter would not have been that different, other than a more likeable Doctor and less bickering with Peri, as the violence was definitely the direction JNT and Saward were moving in. Season 24 with Colin would not have been that different, what is more interesting is to imagine seasons 24-26 with Colin if he had never been sacked. Interestingly, I can see The Evil of the Daleks as a First Doctor story largely as is. It feels like the culmination of a long journey beginning way back in The Daleks and hits many of the same elements, particularly the Doctor and his companion(s) being at odds over the means and methods used to pursue their goals. I can see the dynamic between the Doctor and Waterfield having a different tone to it as well. Edward's worries over his daughter conjuring up the Doctor's own unresolved concerns regarding Susan. I can see him deliberately choosing to go to the Throne Room rather than flee the city to look the Emperor in the eyestalk and ensure that the task was done. |
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Post by constonks on Mar 11, 2020 4:15:39 GMT
Season 24 with Colin would not have been that different, what is more interesting is to imagine seasons 24-26 with Colin if he had never been sacked. Hmmm that is interesting - a Sixth Doctor who would have bickered with Peri, been mellowed by Mel, then gone on to be a mentor figure to Ace... |
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Post by tuigirl on Mar 11, 2020 8:42:30 GMT
Season 24 with Colin would not have been that different, what is more interesting is to imagine seasons 24-26 with Colin if he had never been sacked. Hmmm that is interesting - a Sixth Doctor who would have bickered with Peri, been mellowed by Mel, then gone on to be a mentor figure to Ace... I am right now trying to imagine bringing Sixie and Ace together. I am pretty sure Sixie would first be taken aback. I also wonder if their violent tendencies would amplify each other.
Have there actually been any stories anywhere attempting this?
I know that we are swamped with Ace stories in BF, I am among the people who are a bit tired of her (maybe that is why I have not started on Sophie's audiobook yet), but wouldn't that be a great idea to do in a BF release? I certainly would be curious.
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lidar2
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You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Mar 11, 2020 8:57:56 GMT
Season 24 with Colin would not have been that different, what is more interesting is to imagine seasons 24-26 with Colin if he had never been sacked. Hmmm that is interesting - a Sixth Doctor who would have bickered with Peri, been mellowed by Mel, then gone on to be a mentor figure to Ace... Based on Andrew Cartmel's Who's Round I think he would have wanted to mellow the character and write out the coat. JNT would probably have let him mellow the character, but I'm not sure he would have let him write out the coat. The obvious way to mellow the character would have been to let more of Colin's own personality come through so the Six we would have ended up with would be rather like the Six we now have in the BF audios.
I think the Six-Ace relationship would have been rather like the Six-Flip relationship we have already seen. Here's an interesting question. We know Ray in Delta and the Bannermen and Ace were both developed as potential companions. If Colin had still been the Doctor, might they have gone with Ray instead, as she might have worked better with Six than Ace?
There was a fanzine back in the 90s I had (I think it was called Metamorphosis) that did a special on Six and had an article on what Seasons 24-26 would have been like with Six instead of Seven. The only specific I can remember is they say Six might have quoted Shakespeare's Henry V to the Gods of Ragnarok rather than performing magic tricks in Greatest Show. I think Colin would not have done some of Seven's quieter moments as well as Sylv, but he would have been better in some speeches (e.g the "evil from the dawn of time ... somehow the evil survives" speech from Fenric)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 9:30:17 GMT
Hmmm that is interesting - a Sixth Doctor who would have bickered with Peri, been mellowed by Mel, then gone on to be a mentor figure to Ace... I am right now trying to imagine bringing Sixie and Ace together. I am pretty sure Sixie would first be taken aback. I also wonder if their violent tendencies would amplify each other.
Have there actually been any stories anywhere attempting this? I know that we are swamped with Ace stories in BF, I am among the people who are a bit tired of her (maybe that is why I have not started on Sophie's audiobook yet), but wouldn't that be a great idea to do in a BF release? I certainly would be curious.
The banter's quite palpable in the imagination. I'm surprised it hasn't been done to any great degree in a multi-Doctor story yet. I think he would've been a lot less leading with his lessons than the Seventh Doctor. In Remembrance of the Daleks, we'd have probably heard about the fascinating process behind carbon scoring as a scientific principle before he demonstrated to Ace the burn marks in the schoolyard. Her reckless behaviour would've made a nice wakeup call to his own. Particularly her own battle with the Daleks in the school: |
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Post by number13 on Mar 11, 2020 13:13:14 GMT
In the vein of the Serial Swap challenge, where Doctors exchange stories between one another (e.g. for the Third Doctor in the The War Machines for the First Doctor in The Green Death), what if each incumbent incarnation had remained on for one more or one less season? From a storytelling or production stance, what changes could have been made to individual stories or entire production blocks to accommodate the immediate change? What could have changed going forward? For example: If the Fourth Doctor had remained on for Season 19?I can see Time-Flight being shifted back for a climactic final confrontation with the Cybermen in Earthshock. Severely wounded by the Cyberleader protecting his travelling companions, the Doctor collapses before he can free the console's controls. The freighter impacts with the planet. History is saved, at the cost of young Adric's life, but amidst this tragedy, a miracle of Time Lord science is performed. A new life is born. The Fourth Doctor regenerates into his fifth incarnation... Needing time to process the events above Earth, the Doctor his companions off in Amsterdam on Earth, while he returns the survivors of the freighter back to their home time. Tegan and Nyssa fall in with Tegan's cousin, Colin, and his friend, Robin, at a booked out youth hostel and spend the day abroad. Returning from the twenty-sixth century, the Doctor sets to repairing damage to the console. However, as he adjusts to his new self (with aid from the TARDIS), the Doctor is attacked by a force from the Arc of Infinity. Unable to defend himself and finding his ship no sanctuary, he sets course for the one people who can help -- his homeworld of Gallifrey. But, even with the assistance of an old acquaintance, Damon, he discovers his regeneration is failing in a way never before seen in his own kind... I think the most obvious - because we know from the showrunner in question that it was actually pitched to the departing Doctor - is Series 5 of the revived series. When Tennant was still on the fence about leaving and Moffat had been named RTD's replacement, Moff came up with the idea of Leadworth, Amelia etc etc pretty much as is. The only difference is when young Amy met the Doctor he would be injured and indeed dying, then when he showed up after all the years she doubted herself (the raggedy Doctor) he'd actually be the Tennant Doc from earlier in his timeline, not woulnded and we'd catch back up to his regen by series end. To play this "What If?" we do have to kinda ignore behind the scenes events, Tom wasn't wanted by S19's pitches and ratings with him had stagnated. Ditto Troughton who's Season 6 was a creative high but nearly got the show cancelled the ratings were so bad. Pertwee's wage demands, to give another example, meant he wasn't coming back for S12 regardless. Colin we know pitched staying for another season before volunteering to leave and so on so it's probably smoother to take any and all behind the scenes "real life" out the equation and imagine everything would be hunky dory. Ditto things like the character of Harry - he wouldn't have been in S12 but for the original idea that Ian Marter was needed to do the younger man's heavy lifting as the original idea for the Fourth Doc was a much older and slight man (even, famously, Mr Pastry himself Richard Hearne) so if Pertwee did S12 it would be Harry-less in reality. Colin getting another year is easier to imagine especially since we have so many Lost Stories with him. He could do the fabled S23 with Nightmare Fair etc, then the Trial in Year 3. Again this would require ignoring events IRL like Saward's actions and Robert Holme's death but it's the easiest era to imagine that extra year for, I think. Then - again with the benefit of knowing so much about the lost S27 - we can still imagine Sylv's third year being the Raine one though honestly I don't think creatively that run would have been as wonderful a final bow as S26 as we got it. Troughton getting an extra year on Earth - in our imagined reality where he was welcome to stay to usher in the colour era - would be something I'd have loved to see. Barry Letts ideas for a more Quatermass tone melding with Troughton's more vibrant, fun sensibilities may not seem like a good fit but with Dicks there to lend a hand and Pat such a versatile actor I think there could have been a toning down of The Doctor, explained by him being sombre due to his exile. It'd be easy enough to write away too - his initial punishment is exile as it was in The War Games but he wasn't forced to "change appearance". His actions in S7 still displease the Timelords and they force him to regenerate into Pertwee as was. The trickle down effect of this would be imagining Pertwee in S12 which is easy to do as none of S12 was written for Tom's more comedic style but mostly with Jon in mind anyway. It's very easy to imagine Pertwee in any of that year's run, I think. Pertwee in Genesis? That'd be fascinating. Very interesting, thinking about just the two ends of the real Pertwee years, I agree that Patrick Troughton could easily have done S7. He could play any style and his regeneration could have been an accidental one at the end of 'Inferno' Ep 6 as he crosses the parallel dimensions back to our reality. He passes out on the console and awakes as... just imagine the new Doctor bursting onto the scene in Ep 7 (where he is a bit frantic in his actions anyway) fizzing with regenerative instability and trying to avert disaster for the second time when nobody know who he is...
Much as I'm a Pertwee fan, I really can't imagine him in some of S12 as we know it. 'Robot', 'The Sontaran Experiment' and 'Revenge of the Cybermen' are easy to imagine as Pertwee stories I agree. But 'The Ark in Space' and 'Genesis' are definitive Tom stories and while I can imagine how they might have been with the Third Doctor, I don't think they would have been as good. (I know that's a shocking thing for a Pertwee fan to say - do I have the right?)
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Post by lidar2 on Mar 11, 2020 13:24:13 GMT
I think the most obvious - because we know from the showrunner in question that it was actually pitched to the departing Doctor - is Series 5 of the revived series. When Tennant was still on the fence about leaving and Moffat had been named RTD's replacement, Moff came up with the idea of Leadworth, Amelia etc etc pretty much as is. The only difference is when young Amy met the Doctor he would be injured and indeed dying, then when he showed up after all the years she doubted herself (the raggedy Doctor) he'd actually be the Tennant Doc from earlier in his timeline, not woulnded and we'd catch back up to his regen by series end. To play this "What If?" we do have to kinda ignore behind the scenes events, Tom wasn't wanted by S19's pitches and ratings with him had stagnated. Ditto Troughton who's Season 6 was a creative high but nearly got the show cancelled the ratings were so bad. Pertwee's wage demands, to give another example, meant he wasn't coming back for S12 regardless. Colin we know pitched staying for another season before volunteering to leave and so on so it's probably smoother to take any and all behind the scenes "real life" out the equation and imagine everything would be hunky dory. Ditto things like the character of Harry - he wouldn't have been in S12 but for the original idea that Ian Marter was needed to do the younger man's heavy lifting as the original idea for the Fourth Doc was a much older and slight man (even, famously, Mr Pastry himself Richard Hearne) so if Pertwee did S12 it would be Harry-less in reality. Colin getting another year is easier to imagine especially since we have so many Lost Stories with him. He could do the fabled S23 with Nightmare Fair etc, then the Trial in Year 3. Again this would require ignoring events IRL like Saward's actions and Robert Holme's death but it's the easiest era to imagine that extra year for, I think. Then - again with the benefit of knowing so much about the lost S27 - we can still imagine Sylv's third year being the Raine one though honestly I don't think creatively that run would have been as wonderful a final bow as S26 as we got it. Troughton getting an extra year on Earth - in our imagined reality where he was welcome to stay to usher in the colour era - would be something I'd have loved to see. Barry Letts ideas for a more Quatermass tone melding with Troughton's more vibrant, fun sensibilities may not seem like a good fit but with Dicks there to lend a hand and Pat such a versatile actor I think there could have been a toning down of The Doctor, explained by him being sombre due to his exile. It'd be easy enough to write away too - his initial punishment is exile as it was in The War Games but he wasn't forced to "change appearance". His actions in S7 still displease the Timelords and they force him to regenerate into Pertwee as was. The trickle down effect of this would be imagining Pertwee in S12 which is easy to do as none of S12 was written for Tom's more comedic style but mostly with Jon in mind anyway. It's very easy to imagine Pertwee in any of that year's run, I think. Pertwee in Genesis? That'd be fascinating. Very interesting, thinking about just the two ends of the real Pertwee years, I agree that Patrick Troughton could easily have done S7. He could play any style and his regeneration could have been an accidental one at the end of 'Inferno' Ep 6 as he crosses the parallel dimensions back to our reality. He passes out on the console and awakes as... just imagine the new Doctor bursting onto the scene in Ep 7 (where he is a bit frantic in his actions anyway) fizzing with regenerative instability and trying to avert disaster for the second time when nobody know who he is...
Much as I'm a Pertwee fan, I really can't imagine him in some of S12 as we know it. 'Robot', 'The Sontaran Experiment' and 'Revenge of the Cybermen' are easy to imagine as Pertwee stories I agree. But 'The Ark in Space' and 'Genesis' are definitive Tom stories and while I can imagine how they might have been with the Third Doctor, I don't think they would have been as good. (I know that's a shocking thing for a Pertwee fan to say - do I have the right?)
I think being covered in the green slime would be the most likely cause of a regeneration in Inferno - a kind of Green Death 3 years too soon! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 14:10:06 GMT
But 'The Ark in Space' and 'Genesis' are definitive Tom stories and while I can imagine how they might have been with the Third Doctor, I don't think they would have been as good. (I know that's a shocking thing for a Pertwee fan to say - do I have the right?) That line you finished with alone would set Tom apart from Pertwee. If Genesis of the Daleks was a Third Doctor story, Jon's take on it would be, "of course I have the right, I am ... the Doctor!"  |
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Post by number13 on Mar 11, 2020 16:28:48 GMT
But 'The Ark in Space' and 'Genesis' are definitive Tom stories and while I can imagine how they might have been with the Third Doctor, I don't think they would have been as good. (I know that's a shocking thing for a Pertwee fan to say - do I have the right?) That line you finished with alone would set Tom apart from Pertwee. If Genesis of the Daleks was a Third Doctor story, Jon's take on it would be, "of course I have the right, I am ... the Doctor!" Agree -with Sarah acting as his conscience and asking the question of him. I can easily imagine it rewritten as a Third Doctor story - lots of Aikido moments and where Tom's Doctor is intense and brooding in his big moral debate with Davros, Jon's Doctor would have withered him with furious contempt! Like he did the Controller, but more so! The scene would probably have ended with Nyder dashing in on hearing all the shouting, the Doctor flattening him and only being brought down by a bunch of guards.
(When I said 'not as good' I meant of course in the stories as written - I know the season was intended to be Pertwee 6 at one stage, but in the final form there are sections which wouldn't be his style at all. With the right rewrites, bring it on, he'd have been great as always! The one which wouldn't have needed rewrites imo is 'Robot'. Minus the regeneration scenes, it really looks like one of his without him in it.)
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Post by tuigirl on Mar 11, 2020 20:26:01 GMT
I am right now trying to imagine bringing Sixie and Ace together. I am pretty sure Sixie would first be taken aback. I also wonder if their violent tendencies would amplify each other.
Have there actually been any stories anywhere attempting this? I know that we are swamped with Ace stories in BF, I am among the people who are a bit tired of her (maybe that is why I have not started on Sophie's audiobook yet), but wouldn't that be a great idea to do in a BF release? I certainly would be curious.
The banter's quite palpable in the imagination. I'm surprised it hasn't been done to any great degree in a multi-Doctor story yet. I think he would've been a lot less leading with his lessons than the Seventh Doctor. In Remembrance of the Daleks, we'd have probably heard about the fascinating process behind carbon scoring as a scientific principle before he demonstrated to Ace the burn marks in the schoolyard. Her reckless behaviour would've made a nice wakeup call to his own. Particularly her own battle with the Daleks in the school: You just made me laugh. This is brilliant. |
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Post by tuigirl on Mar 11, 2020 20:29:41 GMT
Hmmm that is interesting - a Sixth Doctor who would have bickered with Peri, been mellowed by Mel, then gone on to be a mentor figure to Ace... Based on Andrew Cartmel's Who's Round I think he would have wanted to mellow the character and write out the coat. JNT would probably have let him mellow the character, but I'm not sure he would have let him write out the coat. The obvious way to mellow the character would have been to let more of Colin's own personality come through so the Six we would have ended up with would be rather like the Six we now have in the BF audios.
I think the Six-Ace relationship would have been rather like the Six-Flip relationship we have already seen. Here's an interesting question. We know Ray in Delta and the Bannermen and Ace were both developed as potential companions. If Colin had still been the Doctor, might they have gone with Ray instead, as she might have worked better with Six than Ace?
There was a fanzine back in the 90s I had (I think it was called Metamorphosis) that did a special on Six and had an article on what Seasons 24-26 would have been like with Six instead of Seven. The only specific I can remember is they say Six might have quoted Shakespeare's Henry V to the Gods of Ragnarok rather than performing magic tricks in Greatest Show. I think Colin would not have done some of Seven's quieter moments as well as Sylv, but he would have been better in some speeches (e.g the "evil from the dawn of time ... somehow the evil survives" speech from Fenric)
And he certainly would have given the Master a real beating during the fight in Survival- although that would have robbed us of one of my most beloved scenes in that serial- "If we fight like animals, we will die like animals!"
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Post by tuigirl on Mar 11, 2020 20:36:02 GMT
Much as I'm a Pertwee fan, I really can't imagine him in some of S12 as we know it. 'Robot', 'The Sontaran Experiment' and 'Revenge of the Cybermen' are easy to imagine as Pertwee stories I agree. But 'The Ark in Space' and 'Genesis' are definitive Tom stories and while I can imagine how they might have been with the Third Doctor, I don't think they would have been as good. (I know that's a shocking thing for a Pertwee fan to say - do I have the right?)
I totally agree with you there! Ark and Genesis are so effective because they really play to the strengths of 4. I agree that these would be much less "classics" if they featured 3. I am not the biggest fan of Tom (yeah, I know, I am an incurable heretic) and I prefer Pertwee... but Ark in Space is one of my all-time favorites. It also is the very first classic episode I ever watched and I was sucked in. It must be good if I could completely suspend my disbelief and ignored all the bubble wrap and actually started delving deeper into the rabbit hole.
I think any "Aikido Moments" would be utterly misplaced.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 0:20:38 GMT
Much as I'm a Pertwee fan, I really can't imagine him in some of S12 as we know it. 'Robot', 'The Sontaran Experiment' and 'Revenge of the Cybermen' are easy to imagine as Pertwee stories I agree. But 'The Ark in Space' and 'Genesis' are definitive Tom stories and while I can imagine how they might have been with the Third Doctor, I don't think they would have been as good. (I know that's a shocking thing for a Pertwee fan to say - do I have the right?)
I totally agree with you there! Ark and Genesis are so effective because they really play to the strengths of 4. I agree that these would be much less "classics" if they featured 3. I am not the biggest fan of Tom (yeah, I know, I am an incurable heretic) and I prefer Pertwee... but Ark in Space is one of my all-time favorites. It also is the very first classic episode I ever watched and I was sucked in. It must be good if I could completely suspend my disbelief and ignored all the bubble wrap and actually started delving deeper into the rabbit hole.
I think any "Aikido Moments" would be utterly misplaced.
I have this feeling -- I can't really confirm it, but it comes from The Time Warrior and Carnival of Monsters -- that the Third Doctor's Venusian aikido would meet a bit more opposition with Holmes than under Dicks's hand. I'm remembering that Linx shot him in the face twice in one story: I'd say Pertwee's penchant (sounds like a high-end clothing line  ) for authenticity would probably come into play too (e.g. turning the hang glider into a zipline for The Five Doctors), but a lot of the season seems to fit that aesthetic already. I wonder if it would've come off feeling like The Tyrants of Logic with its bursts of horror? If you're looking for really weird though, roll back the clock by a season and have incarnations turn up early. A fresh-faced Fourth Doctor is pitted against a dinosaur invasion of London, tangles in the politics of Peladon, uncovers the secrets of the Exxilons, while the Third Doctor finds himself solving riddles in the Land of Fiction, facing off against Tobias Vaughn and trapped in the War Games. |
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mbt66
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Post by mbt66 on Mar 15, 2020 15:47:38 GMT
In the vein of the Serial Swap challenge, where Doctors exchange stories between one another (e.g. the Third Doctor battles The War Machines while the First Doctor uncovers The Green Death), what if each incumbent incarnation had remained on for one more/less season than in our timeline? From a storytelling (or production) stance, what alterations could have been made to individual stories or entire production blocks to accommodate the immediate change? What could have changed going forward? For example: If the Fourth Doctor had remained on for Season 19?I can see Time-Flight being shifted back in the broadcast order for a final climactic battle with the Cybermen in Earthshock. Severely wounded by the Cyberleader while defending his companions, the Doctor's unable to reset the controls before he collapses to the TARDIS floor. Nyssa and Tegan watch in horror as the freighter impacts with the planet. History is saved at the cost of young Adric's life, but amidst this tragedy, a miracle of Time Lord science is performed. A new life is born from the ashes of the old. The Fourth Doctor regenerates into his fifth incarnation... Needing time to process the events above Earth, the new Doctor drops his companions off in modern day Amsterdam, while he returns the freighter's survivors back to their own home timezone. Tegan and Nyssa fall in with Tegan's cousin, Colin, and his friend, Robin at a booked-out youth hostel and decide to spend the day abroad while they wait for the Doctor to return. En route from the 26 th century, the Time Lord in question sets to work repairing the console. However, as he adjusts to his new self (with assistance from the TARDIS), he's attacked by an unknown force stretching through the Arc of Infinity. Lacking the ability to defend himself and finding his ship no sanctuary, the Doctor sets course for the one people he feels can help -- his own, on the planet Gallifrey. But, even with the assistance of an old acquaintance, Damon, he discovers a terrible truth. His regeneration is failing and not in any manner previously seen among his own kind. His new life may not be his own for much longer... This is a really interesting what if...but I keep wondering what Douglas Adams would have done if Tom had chosen to leave one season sooner!? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 20:17:44 GMT
In the vein of the Serial Swap challenge, where Doctors exchange stories between one another (e.g. the Third Doctor battles The War Machines while the First Doctor uncovers The Green Death), what if each incumbent incarnation had remained on for one more/less season than in our timeline? From a storytelling (or production) stance, what alterations could have been made to individual stories or entire production blocks to accommodate the immediate change? What could have changed going forward? For example: If the Fourth Doctor had remained on for Season 19?I can see Time-Flight being shifted back in the broadcast order for a final climactic battle with the Cybermen in Earthshock. Severely wounded by the Cyberleader while defending his companions, the Doctor's unable to reset the controls before he collapses to the TARDIS floor. Nyssa and Tegan watch in horror as the freighter impacts with the planet. History is saved at the cost of young Adric's life, but amidst this tragedy, a miracle of Time Lord science is performed. A new life is born from the ashes of the old. The Fourth Doctor regenerates into his fifth incarnation... Needing time to process the events above Earth, the new Doctor drops his companions off in modern day Amsterdam, while he returns the freighter's survivors back to their own home timezone. Tegan and Nyssa fall in with Tegan's cousin, Colin, and his friend, Robin at a booked-out youth hostel and decide to spend the day abroad while they wait for the Doctor to return. En route from the 26 th century, the Time Lord in question sets to work repairing the console. However, as he adjusts to his new self (with assistance from the TARDIS), he's attacked by an unknown force stretching through the Arc of Infinity. Lacking the ability to defend himself and finding his ship no sanctuary, the Doctor sets course for the one people he feels can help -- his own, on the planet Gallifrey. But, even with the assistance of an old acquaintance, Damon, he discovers a terrible truth. His regeneration is failing and not in any manner previously seen among his own kind. His new life may not be his own for much longer... This is a really interesting what if...but I keep wondering what Douglas Adams would have done if Tom had chosen to leave one season sooner!? Interesting thought! Ideally, maybe we would've seen him bow out in Shada? A combination of his walk through the vortex and his battle against Skagra being contributing factors to his regeneration? The final lines of the story even fit rather well as an epitaph: "Is that really the Doctor? How strange. He seemed such a nice old man.”" The production strike would've been an issue, but John Nathan-Turner spent ages during his tenure trying to remount Shada in one form or another. We might not have had a Graham Williams/Douglas Adams era finale, but a glossy Williams/JNT era hybrid debut instead. Parts of the story made under one production office and the majority of the rest made under another. The Fourth Doctor makes his curtain call and the Fifth Doctor arrives in time for Brighton and The Leisure Hive. |
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Post by number13 on Mar 15, 2020 21:32:52 GMT
This is a really interesting what if...but I keep wondering what Douglas Adams would have done if Tom had chosen to leave one season sooner!? Interesting thought! Ideally, maybe we would've seen him bow out in Shada? A combination of his walk through the vortex and his battle against Skagra being contributing factors to his regeneration? The final lines of the story even fit rather well as an epitaph: "Is that really the Doctor? How strange. He seemed such a nice old man.”" The production strike would've been an issue, but John Nathan-Turner spent ages during his tenure trying to remount Shada in one form or another. We might not have had a Graham Williams/Douglas Adams era finale, but a glossy Williams/JNT era hybrid debut instead. Parts of the story made under one production office and the majority of the rest made under another. The Fourth Doctor makes his curtain call and the Fifth Doctor arrives in time for Brighton and The Leisure Hive. I've been trying to imagine S18 with the young-looking, energetic, newly-regenerated, even perky Fifth Doctor striding around full of vim and vigour looking for a decent wicket to try some leg-spin on...
Trying and it must be said, failing.  A season full of entropy and decay doesn't really cry out for a perky Doctor! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 22:33:40 GMT
Interesting thought! Ideally, maybe we would've seen him bow out in Shada? A combination of his walk through the vortex and his battle against Skagra being contributing factors to his regeneration? The final lines of the story even fit rather well as an epitaph: "Is that really the Doctor? How strange. He seemed such a nice old man.”" The production strike would've been an issue, but John Nathan-Turner spent ages during his tenure trying to remount Shada in one form or another. We might not have had a Graham Williams/Douglas Adams era finale, but a glossy Williams/JNT era hybrid debut instead. Parts of the story made under one production office and the majority of the rest made under another. The Fourth Doctor makes his curtain call and the Fifth Doctor arrives in time for Brighton and The Leisure Hive. I've been trying to imagine S18 with the young-looking, energetic, newly-regenerated, even perky Fifth Doctor striding around full of vim and vigour looking for a decent wicket to try some leg-spin on...
Trying and it must be said, failing. A season full of entropy and decay doesn't really cry out for a perky Doctor! True, true. But there's quite a few new beginnings in Tom's final season as well. I think the emphasis would have shifted itself more towards a theme of metamorphosis. The Argolin, the Alzarians, the Tharils, the Trakenites... The TARDIS always seems to arrive at that crucial moment just before the rebirth. When we got to Logopolis, or a version of Logopolis, it would've been more about keeping those victories that the Doctor had made over the season. I think we would've gotten a Fifth Doctor a bit closer to how Peter Davison initially played him in Four to Doomsday. The vulnerability, sure, but a bit less breathless than the remainder of the season. He had a certainty there that would've helped him play par with Romana and K9. |
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A season full of entropy and decay doesn't really cry out for a perky Doctor!