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Post by elkawho on Mar 29, 2020 5:17:08 GMT
OK folks, lets hear what you have to say!
Not my favorite of the early Eight releases, but not bad. The music bugs me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 5:23:32 GMT
I actually really love it.The sound design The Doctor and Charleys rapport the androids the war just entertaining Doctor WHO as it should be
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 5:44:57 GMT
Crossing Swords in Orion
GARAZONE SPACE PATROL. REPORT K/5703.
Classification: Security rating red. In the early days, Big Finish decided to adapt three stories from their fan-based predecessor, Audio Visuals, for a new audience under a new licence. Unlike Minuet in Hell and The Mutant Phase, Sword of Orion remains much as it was from its initial release in 1985/6. The setting aboard the Vanguard and Star Destroyer is indistinguishable and the cast of characters remain the largely same. However, there were a few key differences between the two, which I'll share below. Originally, the AV!Doctor was alone when he arrived on Vanguard. Much of his dialogue has been shared between the Eighth Doctor and Charley, with some of his more biting lines given to the latter. There is no appearance of the Garazone Bazaar in the Audio Visuals version. The AV!Doctor instead spends a great deal of time aboard the TARDIS with companions Truman and Ria struggling against his sargol withdrawal. Something that, in hindsight, could easily have been retrofitted to explain the televised Sixth Doctor's also erratic behaviour (i.e. spectrox withdrawal). In the remake, two characters are renamed: Chev becomes Kelsey and Chava becomes Chev. Only one cliffhanger exists within the original story: Grash and Chava are ambushed by the Cybermen storming the Vanguard. Interestingly, the version used for this research lacks both the opening titles and the cliffhanger. If the original were split into four 25-minute instalments, each could theoretically have fallen as follows: - The Doctor is discovered over the body of Chev (“I've found his body and the murderer.”);
- The Cybermen storm the Vanguard (“Run for it, Chava!”);
- Chava leads Vol to the Cybermat (“Hey... It's that Cyber-thing...”).
Unlike its self-contained successor, there's no final coda to round out the story either. Taking a leaf from stories like Enemy of the World, we don't discover if or how the Doctor survived until the next instalment, Carny. Nick Briggs would later employ this trick for another story involving a returning foe at Big Finish some years following Sword of Orion. Jim Mortimore's original soundtrack has a wonderful leitmotif taken from the “Space Adventure” track used for The Tomb of the Cybermen. Lovely though it was, I can see why it didn't make the transition. Securing copyright for each influence would've been a nightmare. That said, that didn't stop the opening overture for the Audio Visuals version being used as the backing track for the McGann version's trailer. Adding to the chilling atmosphere, Mortimore's soundtrack also took partial inspiration from The Omen. The spectral mantra you can hear in the background is Heather Barker who plays Ria. As for the Cybermen, their Audio Visuals counterparts feel (quite naturally, in retrospect) like the Neomorph Leader and Lieutenant we'd seen recently in The Five Doctors. The dynamic between the two feels quite reminiscent of David Banks and Mark Hardy. Although, interestingly enough, some of the supplemental art shows them as CyberTelosians, fitting the backstory of the Star Destroyer. The Big Finish versions occupy a similar niche. Their backstory, as relayed by the Doctor at the Bazaar, is reminiscent of Revenge of the Cybermen, but their design is much more reminiscent of the CyberFaction we'd seen in The Invasion. The archetypal Big Finish Cyberman these days. ( Author's note: I like the subtle addition of transparent fluidic tubing in the McGann version's ears on the cover.) While much the cast remains the same, there is a keen difference between the two versions of Deeva Jansen, which has a great deal to do with the final climax. We're familiar with the McGann version being wounded and offered passage aboard the TARDIS in exchange for erasing the information taken from the Cybermen. She agrees and joins them just before they're attacked by the Cyberleader. The AV!Doctor, on the other hand, is faced with a far grimmer scenario. When they reach the conversion chambers, hoping to free the Vanguard's crew, Deeva sees no reason why the procedure shouldn't continue. She tells the Doctor about the humans' purge of their android counterparts after the riots on Earth (“mass deactivation” being synonymous with Blade Runner's euphemistic “retirement” of replicants). When faced with a partially cybernised Ike, pleading for release from the conversion unit, Deeva asks the Doctor sharply if killing him wouldn't be: “the humane thing to do?” Despite his protests, he doesn't have the answer. Nevertheless, both versions of Deeva Jansen choose to sacrifice their own lives to save someone else. Either the Doctor or Charley in their respective versions. Exercising one last act of empathy in reaction to the Doctor's compassion:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 7:20:28 GMT
Just had a listen again and yep Enjoyed it.
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
Likes: 5,060
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Post by ljwilson on Mar 29, 2020 8:26:17 GMT
I'm cheating a bit and using my review from the **********.com
I don't think I need to harp on about the plot too much, the blurb and other reviews will outline it well enough.
But I do love Sword of Orion. The motley collection of characters aboard the past-its-best refuse collection ship The Vanguard soon find themselves out of their depth when their new and very efficient captain, Miss Jansen, instructs them to board a derelict space ship for junking purposes.
Various horrors await, and we then get an Alien-esq fight for survival. The 8th Doctor and Charley find themselves not only battling against the inhabitants of the derelict ship, but also the treachery of the embattled crew of The Vanguard.
The supporting cast are fantastic, including the part-time mobster/union rep Grash who has a hold on a number of the crew.
The sound design is superb. Old doors on rusty bearings sliding open, comms links with interference and even scratchy radio broadcasts that the crew are listening to.
One of my go-to audios from Big Finish, brilliantly atmospheric with a great score. An excellent 8 out of 10.
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Tony Jones
Chancellery Guard
Professor Chronotis
Still rockin' along!
Likes: 2,130
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Post by Tony Jones on Mar 29, 2020 9:15:00 GMT
I love both versions of this
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Stevo
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 6,034
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Post by Stevo on Mar 29, 2020 11:32:14 GMT
I love The Sword of Orion, it's very much a traditional Doctor Who adventure that ticks all the right boxes. Charley and Eight are very enjoyable in this too. The Sword of Orion is definitely one of the stronger early Eighth Doctor stories for me.
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Post by davygallagher on Mar 29, 2020 12:38:15 GMT
I love The Sword of Orion, it's very much a traditional Doctor Who adventure that ticks all the right boxes. Charley and Eight are very enjoyable in this too. The Sword of Orion is definitely one of the stronger early Eighth Doctor stories for me. And I think that's why it's an important one too - it's the "trad" Who story from that first run which was the first time we'd ever seen or heard McGann in a story that could have another Doc swapped into it and as such seeing what he could do with that to differentiate himself, to make it more than a bit generic. And he did, too. While you could sub in Five and Nyssa or Six and Peri this story shows how Eight and Charley handle the more day-to-day nuts and bolts kind of adventures and taken in that more meta way I think it fares well.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 30, 2020 10:35:25 GMT
Its a story i realised i should return to more often for a re-listen
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Post by number13 on Mar 30, 2020 23:55:22 GMT
I first heard 'Sword of Orion' in its proper place within the first 50 (unlike many of the early 8/Charley stories which I heard out of order on BBC Radio 7) and I liked it instantly.
It's got that completely 'Classic TV Who' vibe which always appeals to me, it's atmospheric, builds slowly - and delivers a cracking final episode! There's Cyber-menace in plenty and a great soundtrack, easy to imagine as a Classic TV story (maybe without the most gruesome parts... spare or otherwise  )
And although elements of it are familiar from other Cyber-stories (they do what they do, so it's sort of inevitable all Cyber-stories will become like... each other  to some extent) it certainly left an impression so that I shouted 'Sword of Orion' when Yaz and Graham's group recently boarded the huge, deserted (yeh right it is) ship. 
I like it a lot; it's a straightforwardly exciting Who adventure of the sort I grew up with and in my book that makes it a winner.
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Post by agentten on Mar 31, 2020 0:15:51 GMT
This is still one of my favorite Eighth Doctor stories. I do love a good base-under-siege story and the Cybermen are the perfect antagonist for such stories because they threaten not just military might, but the loss of identity, making the stakes very high. I agree that it's a pretty straight forward Doctor Who adventure, but it's certainly a fun one with a lot of exciting moments and great atmosphere.
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Post by frisby78 on Mar 31, 2020 9:17:10 GMT
I love Sword of Orion. Nice atmosphere and performances all round.
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Post by tuigirl on Mar 31, 2020 17:07:14 GMT
I like it. The market scene in the beginning is amazing. The atmosphere in the abandoned ship is creepy and haunting. 8 and Charley are great together and 8 in general is enjoyable here. I even found the Cybermen- plot to be engaging. Yes, the story itself is a bit basic, but I do not understand why this is so underrated.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 31, 2020 21:42:31 GMT
As Briggs himself says in the writers notes its traditional Who. Paul and India sound well settled in. The Vocals of the Cybermen are closer to my preference and I have a fondess for the Pre Titles scenes featuring Misters Edwards and Gattis.
Regards
mark687
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Tony Jones
Chancellery Guard
Professor Chronotis
Still rockin' along!
Likes: 2,130
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Post by Tony Jones on Apr 1, 2020 12:46:10 GMT
I like it. The market scene in the beginning is amazing. The atmosphere in the abandoned ship is creepy and haunting. 8 and Charley are great together and 8 in general is enjoyable here. I even found the Cybermen- plot to be engaging. Yes, the story itself is a bit basic, but I do not understand why this is so underrated. It got absolutely slated in DWM as I understand and Nick wasn't too impressed. It was apparently formulaic. I was amused in Ascension / Timeless to find a massive Cyberarmy on a desolate hulk floating around in a battescene! Nick did the original music for the AV release at short notice - from memory the original got lost. I actually quite like all the sound work on this
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 1, 2020 17:46:41 GMT
I like it. The market scene in the beginning is amazing. The atmosphere in the abandoned ship is creepy and haunting. 8 and Charley are great together and 8 in general is enjoyable here. I even found the Cybermen- plot to be engaging. Yes, the story itself is a bit basic, but I do not understand why this is so underrated. It got absolutely slated in DWM as I understand and Nick wasn't too impressed. It was apparently formulaic. I was amused in Ascension / Timeless to find a massive Cyberarmy on a desolate hulk floating around in a battescene! Nick did the original music for the AV release at short notice - from memory the original got lost. I actually quite like all the sound work on this I think this was well done and Nick did a good job. No idea what the people in DWM are on about. What exactly did they expect?
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Tony Jones
Chancellery Guard
Professor Chronotis
Still rockin' along!
Likes: 2,130
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Post by Tony Jones on Apr 1, 2020 19:43:44 GMT
It got absolutely slated in DWM as I understand and Nick wasn't too impressed. It was apparently formulaic. I was amused in Ascension / Timeless to find a massive Cyberarmy on a desolate hulk floating around in a battescene! Nick did the original music for the AV release at short notice - from memory the original got lost. I actually quite like all the sound work on this I think this was well done and Nick did a good job. No idea what the people in DWM are on about. What exactly did they expect?
The reviewer is a friend of Nick's which didn't help
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 23:25:54 GMT
It got absolutely slated in DWM as I understand and Nick wasn't too impressed. It was apparently formulaic. I was amused in Ascension / Timeless to find a massive Cyberarmy on a desolate hulk floating around in a battescene! Nick did the original music for the AV release at short notice - from memory the original got lost. I actually quite like all the sound work on this I think this was well done and Nick did a good job. No idea what the people in DWM are on about. What exactly did they expect?
Both Swords are great, but I think the remake might've been a victim of expectations. I remember The Time of the Daleks had a similar reputation, being the first Dalek story with Paul McGann playing the Doctor. By the early 2000s, people had nearly half-a-dozen years to build up what such an adventure would sound like. The Eighth Doctor hadn't really tackled the Cybermen outside of Kroton in the comics and Gary Russell's stint, so expectations must have been pretty high. I suspect what people were angling for at the time was the Cyberman series. That seems to feed more into the kind of conspiracy thrillers and humanist introspection that was starting to take off at that time. (That or our next entry in the Cyber-marathon...) The original Sword of Orion was pretty in vogue for the 1980s. The Earthshock/Androzani formula was in full swing. Both in fan circles and on television directly. Set to predict the wave of Aliens clones and military science fiction that would explode out from '87 onwards. It captures that Alien/Outland-style used future with a humanity that's aged just about as well as the hardware. For all its formula, both versions of the story are quite thoughtful in providing a new spin on old ideas. The original Grash, for instance, initially comes across as someone like Ringway (i.e. the traitor), but he's actually the One Sane Man of the horror setting, so to speak. His initial instinct is to get out of there with his people. It's only problems with the engines that prevent them leaving. The remake Grash's antagonism to the Doctor and Charley is a bit more traditional with a case of mistaken identity (the pair being treated as something they're not), but you could see how he'd kept hold of the smuggling operation. He was deceptively shrewd. It's testament to the quality of the original that the remake is essentially a new "Part One", a few shared lines and a new ending's difference. It's a solid entry. Very polished. Much more than the sum of its parts.
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 3, 2020 7:36:34 GMT
I think this was well done and Nick did a good job. No idea what the people in DWM are on about. What exactly did they expect?
Both Swords are great, but I think the remake might've been a victim of expectations. I remember The Time of the Daleks had a similar reputation, being the first Dalek story with Paul McGann playing the Doctor. By the early 2000s, people had nearly half-a-dozen years to build up what such an adventure would sound like. The Eighth Doctor hadn't really tackled the Cybermen outside of Kroton in the comics and Gary Russell's stint, so expectations must have been pretty high. I suspect what people were angling for at the time was the Cyberman series. That seems to feed more into the kind of conspiracy thrillers and humanist introspection that was starting to take off at that time. (That or our next entry in the Cyber-marathon...) The original Sword of Orion was pretty in vogue for the 1980s. The Earthshock/Androzani formula was in full swing. Both in fan circles and on television directly. Set to predict the wave of Aliens clones and military science fiction that would explode out from '87 onwards. It captures that Alien/Outland-style used future with a humanity that's aged just about as well as the hardware. For all its formula, both versions of the story are quite thoughtful in providing a new spin on old ideas. The original Grash, for instance, initially comes across as someone like Ringway (i.e. the traitor), but he's actually the One Sane Man of the horror setting, so to speak. His initial instinct is to get out of there with his people. It's only problems with the engines that prevent them leaving. The remake Grash's antagonism to the Doctor and Charley is a bit more traditional with a case of mistaken identity (the pair being treated as something they're not), but you could see how he'd kept hold of the smuggling operation. He was deceptively shrewd. It's testament to the quality of the original that the remake is essentially a new "Part One", a few shared lines and a new ending's difference. It's a solid entry. Very polished. Much more than the sum of its parts. Thank you for the detailed explanation. Since I have not been part of the fandom for that long, all these historical bits have totally passed me by and I can only look at the story as is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 8:34:40 GMT
Both Swords are great, but I think the remake might've been a victim of expectations. I remember The Time of the Daleks had a similar reputation, being the first Dalek story with Paul McGann playing the Doctor. By the early 2000s, people had nearly half-a-dozen years to build up what such an adventure would sound like. The Eighth Doctor hadn't really tackled the Cybermen outside of Kroton in the comics and Gary Russell's stint, so expectations must have been pretty high. I suspect what people were angling for at the time was the Cyberman series. That seems to feed more into the kind of conspiracy thrillers and humanist introspection that was starting to take off at that time. (That or our next entry in the Cyber-marathon...) The original Sword of Orion was pretty in vogue for the 1980s. The Earthshock/Androzani formula was in full swing. Both in fan circles and on television directly. Set to predict the wave of Aliens clones and military science fiction that would explode out from '87 onwards. It captures that Alien/Outland-style used future with a humanity that's aged just about as well as the hardware. For all its formula, both versions of the story are quite thoughtful in providing a new spin on old ideas. The original Grash, for instance, initially comes across as someone like Ringway (i.e. the traitor), but he's actually the One Sane Man of the horror setting, so to speak. His initial instinct is to get out of there with his people. It's only problems with the engines that prevent them leaving. The remake Grash's antagonism to the Doctor and Charley is a bit more traditional with a case of mistaken identity (the pair being treated as something they're not), but you could see how he'd kept hold of the smuggling operation. He was deceptively shrewd. It's testament to the quality of the original that the remake is essentially a new "Part One", a few shared lines and a new ending's difference. It's a solid entry. Very polished. Much more than the sum of its parts. Thank you for the detailed explanation. Since I have not been part of the fandom for that long, all these historical bits have totally passed me by and I can only look at the story as is.
No worries. Take what I say with a pinch of salt, though. Half of it is verifiable fact, the other half is me making hypotheses. A fresh pair of eyes isn't necessarily a bad thing.  The history of a production is one thing, but I find it utterly fascinating to research the history of an audience as well. It's a lot trickier, we're not really predisposed to documenting ourselves, but it can lend some interesting coincidences and lineages when fans pass into the professional realm. With a bit of digging, a lot of names from preexisting fanzines tend to jump out and manifest themselves in one way or another. Not just the authors themselves either, but the stuff they've written too. Conglomerate in the 4DAs being a big one. Sometimes the content makes the transition where the writer doesn't (and vice versa). The idea of Evelyn being a nexus point in The Marian Conspiracy can be traced all the way back to a Doctor Who RPG published by FASA in the 1980s, which used the same name to describe the same thing. Some of the New/Missing Adventures have chapter titles that seem to reference Audio Visuals plays ( Endurance, Blood Circuit, etc.) despite not being written by people involved in those projects. Fans alluding to other fans. I think it's good to know those expectations as a writer. Particularly in something like Doctor Who where you're writing for "Saturday tea time" or a probable era of nostalgia. You learn the trends and fancies of audiences at the time. Study them well. Then, lean on what works and throw the rest out the window, fast as you can. It's why taking characters and sticking them in an unfamiliar setting is always a good mental exercise. If you can remain true to the characterisations of, say, the Fourth Doctor and Sarah Jane in a pure historical of the First Doctor's era (right down to the legitimate powerlessness) -- show how they adapt and overcome the wildly different expectations of the setting -- you can write pretty much anything you want with them after that. The expectations of the characters (which must be consistent if to remain true to the character) vs. the expectations of the story (which can go anywhere it likes and challenge that consistency).
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