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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 4, 2020 0:26:31 GMT
Beyond any questions of who did and didn't write it, I think it's worth chatting over Colin's first season opener (and some would argue, real first story). It's violent, it's gritty, it's got Cyber-Peter Griffin lumbering about on Telos, voice a contrast to form.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 1:37:47 GMT
I really like Attack of the Cybermen. It's not perfect, but as a debut, it has a lot to recommend it. To me, it feels like an attempt to do something like Power of the Daleks by way of Day of the Daleks, a new unpredictable Doctor bolstered up by a reliable old enemy in a story that not quite sequelises an earlier triumph ( The Dalek Invasion of Earth in Day's case). The rapport between the two leads is really fun. It feels as though we've known this team for ages. The Doctor's characterisation still maintains that unpredictability from last season, but it's tempered somewhat by some genuinely quite likeable qualities. A point is made about the respect that the two of them show to one another. Despite the bickering. Actually, even the arguments here feel mollified by the fact that they're about whether or not the Doctor is actually okay. There's a lot of bravado there, but his "slips of the mind" have been getting worse (soon to culminate in a mindlock come The Two Doctors). In a different timeline without The Twin Dilemma, it would've been interesting to see the progression: a new regeneration on Varos, troubles in Attack and his mind jamming in Two. I'm in two minds about the Cybermen. On the one hand, I love the sense of worldbuilding around Cyber Control on Telos. There's this real sense of importance and many wheels being spun at once. On the other hand... "Well, Jerry, they just explode so easily..." It's half-and-half. This was I think the tipping point where the CyberNeomorphs had begun to transform into original Battlestar Galactica Cylons. Then again, their treatment of Lytton, Flast, Stratton, Bates and Russell is also pretty uncompromising. I dunno, it's one of those small things that could've been remedied with another sweep of the script. Russell's Beretta finishes off the Cyberman after Peri's shot it with a Cybergun, for instance. It's little niggles that stop it from having that grounded solidity of something like Day. I made a discovery recently actually when I was making a new fanedit of it. The 45-minute timeslot brings the cliffhanger down on the order to kill Peri. However, if the story is appended together into one continuous block, there's another point where you could cut off "Part Two" if they'd stuck to the 25-minute format:
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Apr 4, 2020 9:23:38 GMT
It's a schizophrenic story for me. I think part one is very, very good, but part two is a jumble of disjointed plots (too many of them by far) which still seems to meander aimlessly for long stretches. The Cybermen are far better served in part one than part two, and I can't help but feel that whoever wrote this needed to be sat down by a strong script editor and asked "What's the point of this bit?"; "Why is this plot in the piece at all?" I know the questions over who wrote it make sitting down with the script editor in that way somewhat problematic. I do think this would have been a better first story for Sixie. He and Peri are rather good in this one, as are most of the other performers, at least in part one. It's a strange and ultimately unsatisfactory watch for me, and I generally don't bother with part two.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 12:29:14 GMT
It's a schizophrenic story for me. I think part one is very, very good, but part two is a jumble of disjointed plots (too many of them by far) which still seems to meander aimlessly for long stretches. The Cybermen are far better served in part one than part two, and I can't help but feel that whoever wrote this needed to be sat down by a strong script editor and asked "What's the point of this bit?"; "Why is this plot in the piece at all?" I know the questions over who wrote it make sitting down with the script editor in that way somewhat problematic. I do think this would have been a better first story for Sixie. He and Peri are rather good in this one, as are most of the other performers, at least in part one. It's a strange and ultimately unsatisfactory watch for me, and I generally don't bother with part two. You're right there. I think there's a certain degree of "And then," which happens instead of "because of". A lot of good set-up, but in streamlining back the complications, we don't really get the payoff. Russell, for instance, is brought into the plot because he can get plastic explosives. It's a good scene, played well, but we never see the plastic. What if... The impetus for the guards patrolling the sewers is because when the Cybermen turned up, Russell managed to scarper with the dufflebag of explosives. Hence, the Leader's mistrust of Lytton. He bumps into the Doctor and Peri, the encounter with the scout, etc. The Doctor makes the decision to blow up the Cybermen's forward base, but it's complicated by the fact that two living beings will be caught in the blast. The scout, however, makes it a moot point and Russell detonates the explosives while the Doctor's distracted. The Leader, his personal guard and the two men survive inside the base (ironically the conversion units are pretty sturdy), but it's a wreck. The explosion will have been heard for miles. It's time to evacuate -- fortunately, an errant Time Lord has left his TARDIS lying about. Far quicker than waiting for extraction. I'm kind of tempted to write up a Target novelisation now...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 13:04:39 GMT
Be it Eric Saward, Paula Moore or even Ian Levine wot wrote it, I love Attack of the Cybermen. Why would this be? Well -
It lends itself very well and very confidently to the new 45 minute episode running time. Back in the mid 80's, I was a bit miffed that we would have fewer episodes in a series from now on, but the fact they were double length meant it was possible to get entirely lost in Doctor Who before being yanked back into the real world by the cliffhanger.
Colin Baker was at his best here (and Revelation later on), and he has lots of good stuff to do. Sixie is still unpredictable, headstrong and full of bravado. I'm not comfortable with his early taunting of Peri (the friend he tried to kill in the last story), but this is balanced with more appealing moments. I have no problem with him feeling the cold on Telos when other incarnations have been impervious to chills - this immunity might change from regeneration to regeneration. Who knows?
I love that this story centres on the more macabre elements of the Cybermen. They are so much more than simply marching robots, and its good to see the Cyber-rejections and Lytton's ultimate, and quite shocking fate. They are so brutal here, even when they don't need to be, constantly pushing and shoving. I remember absolutely loving the heightening of their physical bullying.
The Cryons - apart from their enlarged eyes (a good idea, but really made them look as they were wearing thick spectacles - which I suppose they were) are great. Nicely played and ethereal and ghost-like.
As for the Cybermen locking their greatest enemy in a room full of enough explosives to destroy the base? Not their cleverest moment. But that, I think, is my only real gripe with this story, even though it did let us viewers know we were probably in for a good old climactic explosion - I miss those! Everything else, even the mass continuity references (which are all explained within the story anyway) is terrific. I really thought the Doctor's humbling realisation that he had misjudged Lytton might have been the start of a softening of the character. But no. At the start of the next story, there he was in the TARDIS with Peri, behaving like an arse again. Ah well!
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Post by pazzer on Apr 4, 2020 14:24:20 GMT
It's not amazing but still an enjoyable watch. Part 1 sets up this interesting mystery which part 2 doesn't really deliver on. Instead just has lots of action with the Doctor shooting cybermen. Which is the bit I enjoyed most last time I watched it. As after five not doing much was nice seeing the Doctor taking action again. Subplots don't really go anywhere and only purpose seems to be to pad out the story.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 4, 2020 15:13:20 GMT
Ehcoing simliar thoughts here.
Its a very good set up 1st Ep particularly all the Earth and TARDIS domestic scenes. Colbourne, Molloy and Glover attack it with relish. Then in Part 2 you got the Cryons, Bates and Straton and the Time ship plot.
Spoilers
Now how was it a better plan to steal the Time ship rather then just blow it up with some Vastial? A Planet/Species known for cold storage never invented a portable chill thermos?
The other thing that stands is The Doctor / Lytton dynamic, the only way it works is if they had and unseen "Khan/Chekov moment between them. They barely interacted (if at all) in Resurrection, but now their opinions are,Lytton's a scumbag almost till the end where the Doctor admits that its possibly the worst miss-judgement he's made and the Doctor's a high-handed moralistic interferer and I'd rather die then let him know I'm trying to do the right thing.
Overall though pretty good
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 15:36:35 GMT
As I often like to do, I'll take it behind the scenes a bit. It's funny that we always get the "Twin Dilemma ruined Colin's chances right off the bat". The ratings tell the opposite story. Ep 1 of Attack Of The Cybermen got 8.9million viewers. The show hadn't had viewership that high since Davison's first season - even The Five Doctors got nowhere near it. In fact S22 overall got ratings better than S21 so the idea that viewers never took to Colin's era at all and switched off just doesn't bear the fruit of the facts. It makes the attempted cancellation, ultimately the resting of the show, even more baffling as it was doing well with the new 45 minute format. It totally smashed the ratings even the iconic Tom got in his last year. Simply put, the agenda against the show from on high, combined with the BBC needing to save money for the massive cost of launching Eastenders with a huge standing set meant that it was going anyway regardless of how well the show did or what people thought of individual stories. For my money the story is OK. I do think though it's another step in the fan-service direction that blighted much in the 80s. Totter's Lane didn't need to be there in a story that's already reference heavy to The Tenth Planet And Tomb Of The Cybermen. Lytton is not a character I think had any need to return but he's effective enough. The scene where his hands are crushed is truly something horrific which would be the first of many issues this run would have over being deemed too violent. Wonder why Paula Moore never wrote for the show again?
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,810
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Post by lidar2 on Apr 7, 2020 8:20:56 GMT
I like this one and always have. Before season 22 I had simply been a viewer, between seasons 21 and 22 I discovered Terrance Dicks in my local library and the rest, as they say, is history
Halley's Comet was a big deal at the time and the inclusion of it as a plot point was very exciting. It doesn't get much mention now. The other thing that was a big deal at the time was the JNT publicity stunt to change the iconic Police Box TARDIS exterior. Funny how some of the things hat were a big deal at the time (in terms of the general viewership, maybe not the fans) aren't as prominent in the critical commentary years later.
As for the fan-pleasing continuity, the bulk of the plot being centred around The Tenth Planet was too much IMHO. Totter's Lane wasn't a plot point and was just a nice touch for the fans so that was OK.
For me watching it as a 7 year old the scariest part of it was without doubt Stratton and Bates whose anger and aggression seemed so intense to me at the time, not so much when I rewatch it now
Overall, I love this story. Partly because I view it through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia, partly because the novelisation is so good (easily Saward's best), but also because it is a good action adventure in its own right, if a little too continuity dependent.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,810
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Post by lidar2 on Apr 7, 2020 8:22:56 GMT
The other thing that stands is The Doctor / Lytton dynamic, the only way it works is if they had and unseen "Khan/Chekov moment between them. They barely interacted (if at all) in Resurrection, but now their opinions are,Lytton's a scumbag almost till the end where the Doctor admits that its possibly the worst miss-judgement he's made and the Doctor's a high-handed moralistic interferer and I'd rather die then let him know I'm trying to do the right thing. Never thought of this before, but you are quite right - it is as if there is a Lytton trilogy with the middle part missing.
Lytton recast perhaps? (I'm looking at you BF)
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Post by doctorkernow on Apr 7, 2020 9:40:53 GMT
Hello again.
I found Season 22 a mixed bag. I was not a great fan of Saward's vision of the show as a grittier and more violent prospect. Attack had some great moments, the scenes of the potential bank heist that was actually quite different were interesting. The Cybermen and Telos reappearing in their typical Eighties style as cannon fodder except the sewer Cybermen who were really creepy.
I think the first part was better than the second which was really confusing. Lytton made for a interesting character who you think is a bad 'un but shows a different side of his character. Oh, and the chameleon circuit scenes really made me laugh. The Sixie and Peri relationship was better than Twin Dilemmma thank goodness, but still put my teeth on edge at times. The modern equivalent would be series 8 Capaldi and Clara.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 9:46:34 GMT
The other thing that stands is The Doctor / Lytton dynamic, the only way it works is if they had and unseen "Khan/Chekov moment between them. They barely interacted (if at all) in Resurrection, but now their opinions are,Lytton's a scumbag almost till the end where the Doctor admits that its possibly the worst miss-judgement he's made and the Doctor's a high-handed moralistic interferer and I'd rather die then let him know I'm trying to do the right thing. Never thought of this before, but you are quite right - it is as if there is a Lytton trilogy with the middle part missing.
Lytton recast perhaps? (I'm looking at you BF)
My memory's not to great on the subject, but doesn't the novelisation mention they've met before Resurrection? Maybe a prequel could work too. Television or otherwise, it doesn't look like Lytton's first rodeo with the Daleks.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,810
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Post by lidar2 on Apr 7, 2020 10:28:01 GMT
Never thought of this before, but you are quite right - it is as if there is a Lytton trilogy with the middle part missing.
Lytton recast perhaps? (I'm looking at you BF)
My memory's not to great on the subject, but doesn't the novelisation mention they've met before Resurrection? Maybe a prequel could work too. Television or otherwise, it doesn't look like Lytton's first rodeo with the Daleks. I think you're right, I remember thinking that was odd when I read it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 11:39:07 GMT
My memory's not to great on the subject, but doesn't the novelisation mention they've met before Resurrection? Maybe a prequel could work too. Television or otherwise, it doesn't look like Lytton's first rodeo with the Daleks. I think you're right, I remember thinking that was odd when I read it. It's a funny old novelisation. I'm more familiar with a fan attempt written some years back (in the style of Remembrance's novelisation) and that was closer to what I expected than what we eventually got. I think the hurdle for me was tonal more than anything else. If was done with something like The Visitation, sure. But Resurrection is such a comparatively bleak military sci-fi tale -- where Tegan left because it got too real -- the Hitchhiker's-style pastiche doesn't feel right.
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