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Post by tuigirl on Apr 11, 2020 8:53:52 GMT
There has been a question in my head for a while now and I thought I am throwing it into the ring for discussion. If I have posted this at the wrong place, Mods, please feel free to move.
So, we have learned that a fully crewed TARDIS has 6 pilots. We also know that a TARDIS is inprinted to the pilot (well, we know from the Doctor's TARDIS at least). Now, I was wondering- if you have 6 pilots, who is the owner/ primary host? Is it the one deemed the captain? The owner who has bought it? What if the TARDIS likes the ship's cook more than the arrogant cardinal and imprints on him?
What would this mean for an exploratory vessel or a military battle TARDIS? Take a battle TARDIS with 6 pilots- if the captain dies, will the TARDIS go mad and self destruct or inprint on the next person in rank? How would the ship's AI deal with the mental trauma there? Or do they use special military conditioned AIs?
I think that would be a real Archilles heel in a battle TARDIS if it went into a mental meltdown because the captain dies and the rest of the crew cannot fight back? This would be equally inconvenient in an exploratory vessel- just imagine the ship lands on an unexplored planet and the captain is eaten by hungry Androgums. Can the rest of the crew escape if the TARDIS goes into traumatic shock?
I know that the real reason of these issues might be inconsistent writing and "making it up as you go along".
But what would be your in-universe explanations? How do you solve this?
And another thing- why has nobody made a story about this issue yet? This would have been one of the things I would have imagined they would do for the Time War stories. We should get some stories with the TARDIS AIs as characters in their own right, since I assume they are at least as intelligent as their Time Lord masters.
I find this a bit of an oversight.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2020 11:52:18 GMT
I don't think TARDISes have captains, per se. I think it's a lot more communal than that. At least, among the Time Lords themselves. Six panels, six pilots... Six regulators? Each monitoring their own section of vital systems? In situations of serious jeopardy, the TARDIS has been shown to exert a telepathic "pull" on its occupants, so maybe the deciding factor is the Ship itself?
Oh, hang on... What if there's one Time Lord who gets spliced with symbiotic nuclei to act as a medium between the crew and the Ship? An avatar, of sorts. Kind of like Pilot from Farscape. They remain with the TARDIS as a permanent member of the crew, while the rest of the roster are free to rotate assignments as befits their skills. The medium isn't a captain, they're not necessarily in charge (unless their rank says as much), but they are who the crew rely upon for the more subtle aspects of the craft. When the equipment fails (like a Fault Locator or so on), they turn to a person.
As to what happens when their owners die... I think it depends on the personality of the TARDIS and how well they got on with their occupant(s). When the CIA agent melted in The World Shapers, the Ship decided to return to Gallifrey to report the incident. Another in... I want to say, Omega(?), flung itself into the time vortex in its grief.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Apr 12, 2020 9:56:43 GMT
Oh, hang on... What if there's one Time Lord who gets spliced with symbiotic nuclei to act as a medium between the crew and the Ship? An avatar, of sorts. Kind of like Pilot from Farscape. They remain with the TARDIS as a permanent member of the crew, while the rest of the roster are free to rotate assignments as befits their skills. The medium isn't a captain, they're not necessarily in charge (unless their rank says as much), but they are who the crew rely upon for the more subtle aspects of the craft. There would be precedent as that was the technique Gallifreyans used in Time's Crucible |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 10:09:51 GMT
Oh, hang on... What if there's one Time Lord who gets spliced with symbiotic nuclei to act as a medium between the crew and the Ship? An avatar, of sorts. Kind of like Pilot from Farscape. They remain with the TARDIS as a permanent member of the crew, while the rest of the roster are free to rotate assignments as befits their skills. The medium isn't a captain, they're not necessarily in charge (unless their rank says as much), but they are who the crew rely upon for the more subtle aspects of the craft. There would be precedent as that was the technique Gallifreyans used in Time's Crucible Oh, good catch! That's right, it was a pilot and five other crewmen for the Time Scaphe. Do you remember if it covered what happened if the medium became incapacitated? Was there a surgical laboratory or something similar, where they could be understudied by another member aboard or did they have to content themselves for running blind on that "subsystem"? |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Apr 12, 2020 10:18:23 GMT
There would be precedent as that was the technique Gallifreyans used in Time's Crucible Oh, good catch! That's right, it was a pilot and five other crewmen for the Time Scaphe. Do you remember if it covered what happened if the medium became incapacitated? Was there a surgical laboratory or something similar, where they could be understudied by another member aboard or did they have to content themselves for running blind on that "subsystem"? It was all reliant on keeping the medium, who was a child calm. But of course Vael would poke at them verbally scaring them so they were thrown off course. The crew all had there jobs and stations but they were linked to the medium who had to stay focused |
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Post by sherlock on Apr 12, 2020 10:41:25 GMT
I think the TARDIS bond the Doctor has is extremely unusual, and most pilots simply don’t link that deeply to their TARDIS (as to most Time Lords, they’re just a tool). They just view them as a way to get from A to B and nothing more, whereas the Doctor actually lives within his TARDIS so has a deeper connection.
The Doctor’s not alone in this (as we hear tale of the TARDIS graveyard at the end of the universe where TARDISes feeling bereft of their pilots go to die), but is in a minority.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 12:28:01 GMT
I think the TARDIS bond the Doctor has is extremely unusual, and most pilots simply don’t link that deeply to their TARDIS (as to most Time Lords, they’re just a tool). They just view them as a way to get from A to B and nothing more, whereas the Doctor actually lives within his TARDIS so has a deeper connection. The Doctor’s not alone in this (as we hear tale of the TARDIS graveyard at the end of the universe where TARDISes feeling bereft of their pilots go to die), but is in a minority. There's an interesting implication from one of the early books that part of the reason why the TARDIS lands where it does is because it's responding to the subconscious thoughts of its crew. I've often wondered, if a TARDIS gains enough travel experience, does it begin to dream? And if it does, does it share those dreams with the pilot (or vice versa)? It's interesting at the very beginning of the series that the Doctor doesn't initially believe Barbara's assertion that the TARDIS can think for itself. Maybe the Time Lords -- at least, the Time Lords of the era that the Doctor fled Gallifrey -- didn't really engage with their timeships as self-aware beings. In the same way, say, that you don't expect a horse to know the rules of chess. That attitude seems to have changed over time. There's a greater awareness of TARDIS minds among certain Gallifreyans as time goes on. I wonder why it happened, from an in-universe perspective? |
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Post by sherlock on Apr 13, 2020 11:08:56 GMT
I think the TARDIS bond the Doctor has is extremely unusual, and most pilots simply don’t link that deeply to their TARDIS (as to most Time Lords, they’re just a tool). They just view them as a way to get from A to B and nothing more, whereas the Doctor actually lives within his TARDIS so has a deeper connection. The Doctor’s not alone in this (as we hear tale of the TARDIS graveyard at the end of the universe where TARDISes feeling bereft of their pilots go to die), but is in a minority. There's an interesting implication from one of the early books that part of the reason why the TARDIS lands where it does is because it's responding to the subconscious thoughts of its crew. I've often wondered, if a TARDIS gains enough travel experience, does it begin to dream? And if it does, does it share those dreams with the pilot (or vice versa)? It's interesting at the very beginning of the series that the Doctor doesn't initially believe Barbara's assertion that the TARDIS can think for itself. Maybe the Time Lords -- at least, the Time Lords of the era that the Doctor fled Gallifrey -- didn't really engage with their timeships as self-aware beings. In the same way, say, that you don't expect a horse to know the rules of chess. That attitude seems to have changed over time. There's a greater awareness of TARDIS minds among certain Gallifreyans as time goes on. I wonder why it happened, from an in-universe perspective? For a TARDIS to dream, that rather presumes they sleep. Does a multi dimensional sentient matrix sleep? Certainly an interesting question of when the Time Lords became aware of TARDIS sentience. (Side note, I assume it’s this thread that’s inspired the recent addition to the Gallifrey Historia about the TARDISes making themselves heard over the treatment of the SIDRATs?) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 12:32:16 GMT
There's an interesting implication from one of the early books that part of the reason why the TARDIS lands where it does is because it's responding to the subconscious thoughts of its crew. I've often wondered, if a TARDIS gains enough travel experience, does it begin to dream? And if it does, does it share those dreams with the pilot (or vice versa)? It's interesting at the very beginning of the series that the Doctor doesn't initially believe Barbara's assertion that the TARDIS can think for itself. Maybe the Time Lords -- at least, the Time Lords of the era that the Doctor fled Gallifrey -- didn't really engage with their timeships as self-aware beings. In the same way, say, that you don't expect a horse to know the rules of chess. That attitude seems to have changed over time. There's a greater awareness of TARDIS minds among certain Gallifreyans as time goes on. I wonder why it happened, from an in-universe perspective? For a TARDIS to dream, that rather presumes they sleep. Does a multi dimensional sentient matrix sleep? Certainly an interesting question of when the Time Lords became aware of TARDIS sentience. (Side note, I assume it’s this thread that’s inspired the recent addition to the Gallifrey Historia about the TARDISes making themselves heard over the treatment of the SIDRATs?) Ohh, there's a question. I suppose in a way it gets tired, the TARDIS occassionally needs time to recharge its energy banks before making another trip. Likewise, the systems sometimes need a warm-up before take off too, so... hmm, maybe they do doze? Oh, yeah, in spades. The War Games is the closest Gallifrey-centric event that I can think of which best matches that Expanded Universe progression from "Ship" to "old girl" in a much broader societal sense for the Time Lords. TARDISes are living creatures, they're grown, but it's never quite made clear what rights they have under Gallifreyan law. The impression I get is that -- like the Shobogans outside the Capitol -- it was never really considered in any serious sense. They don't have a voice in the proceedings. They are ordered and they obey. However, the timeships have been shown to engage in gossip when together and the loss of the SIDRATs, particularly the nature by which they're perishing, feels like something they would have strong opinions on. Getting them heard is another matter. Hence, the "haunting" of the Quadriggers and the pilots. It's a risk, it alerts the Time Lords to the existence of "secret TARDISes stuff", but it feels like an important enough topic for them to try. |
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 13, 2020 13:20:59 GMT
I personally would find it hard to believe that Time Lords, as at least partially telepathic beings, of not being aware of sentient Tardises. And I am pretty sure a Tardis would also dream- since they are "grown", they might also have a more "organic" functioning nervous system. I also like the idea of them gossiping with each other. I think there is still a plethora of story possibilities that could be done. How about a traumatised Tardis having nightmares? Some bad rumours going around between Tardises which the Doctor picks up?  |
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Post by sherlock on Apr 13, 2020 13:32:25 GMT
For a TARDIS to dream, that rather presumes they sleep. Does a multi dimensional sentient matrix sleep? Certainly an interesting question of when the Time Lords became aware of TARDIS sentience. (Side note, I assume it’s this thread that’s inspired the recent addition to the Gallifrey Historia about the TARDISes making themselves heard over the treatment of the SIDRATs?) Ohh, there's a question. I suppose in a way it gets tired, the TARDIS occassionally needs time to recharge its energy banks before making another trip. Likewise, the systems sometimes need a warm-up before take off too, so... hmm, maybe they do doze? Oh, yeah, in spades. The War Games is the closest Gallifrey-centric event that I can think of which best matches that Expanded Universe progression from "Ship" to "old girl" in a much broader societal sense for the Time Lords. TARDISes are living creatures, they're grown, but it's never quite made clear what rights they have under Gallifreyan law. The impression I get is that -- like the Shobogans outside the Capitol -- it was never really considered in any serious sense. They don't have a voice in the proceedings. They are ordered and they obey. However, the timeships have been shown to engage in gossip when together and the loss of the SIDRATs, particularly the nature by which they're perishing, feels like something they would have strong opinions on. Getting them heard is another matter. Hence, the "haunting" of the Quadriggers and the pilots. It's a risk, it alerts the Time Lords to the existence of "secret TARDISes stuff", but it feels like an important enough topic for them to try. I really like the idea of the TARDISes choosing to keep their sentience and wider society secret from the Time Lords. It gives the Doctor’s TARDIS revealing its sentience in The Edge of Destruction some extra weight, she’s effectively taking him into her confidence. |
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Post by sherlock on Apr 13, 2020 13:40:49 GMT
I personally would find it hard to believe that Time Lords, as at least partially telepathic beings, of not being aware of sentient Tardises. And I am pretty sure a Tardis would also dream- since they are "grown", they might also have a more "organic" functioning nervous system. I also like the idea of them gossiping with each other. I think there is still a plethora of story possibilities that could be done. How about a traumatised Tardis having nightmares? Some bad rumours going around between Tardises which the Doctor picks up? I wonder if rumours between TARDISes might account for some of the Doctor’s TARDIS’s seemingly random landings. She picked up a bit of gossip about something that might deserve her pilot’s attention. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 1:14:03 GMT
I personally would find it hard to believe that Time Lords, as at least partially telepathic beings, of not being aware of sentient Tardises.
And I am pretty sure a Tardis would also dream- since they are "grown", they might also have a more "organic" functioning nervous system. I also like the idea of them gossiping with each other. I think there is still a plethora of story possibilities that could be done. How about a traumatised Tardis having nightmares? Some bad rumours going around between Tardises which the Doctor picks up? That's a good point. I think the Time Lords are aware of it on some level, it'd be difficult not to notice, but such an idea runs counter to their education. They've been schooled to believe TARDISes are not sentient, or at least, don't possess the same level of self-awareness that they do. Good, old-fashioned institutionalised arrogance stops it. As the Doctor once said: "And so like my people, they found a problem they couldn't solve and ran away from it." Even he's not immune to it initially. ( Side note: In hindsight, I think part of the First Doctor's arc is shaking off those misconceptions taught to him at home. It would explain why his later selves are of the opinion that a practical education is extremely useful.) Those are some good story ideas. Ohh, there's a question. I suppose in a way it gets tired, the TARDIS occassionally needs time to recharge its energy banks before making another trip. Likewise, the systems sometimes need a warm-up before take off too, so... hmm, maybe they do doze? Oh, yeah, in spades. The War Games is the closest Gallifrey-centric event that I can think of which best matches that Expanded Universe progression from "Ship" to "old girl" in a much broader societal sense for the Time Lords. TARDISes are living creatures, they're grown, but it's never quite made clear what rights they have under Gallifreyan law. The impression I get is that -- like the Shobogans outside the Capitol -- it was never really considered in any serious sense. They don't have a voice in the proceedings. They are ordered and they obey. However, the timeships have been shown to engage in gossip when together and the loss of the SIDRATs, particularly the nature by which they're perishing, feels like something they would have strong opinions on. Getting them heard is another matter. Hence, the "haunting" of the Quadriggers and the pilots. It's a risk, it alerts the Time Lords to the existence of "secret TARDISes stuff", but it feels like an important enough topic for them to try. I really like the idea of the TARDISes choosing to keep their sentience and wider society secret from the Time Lords. It gives the Doctor’s TARDIS revealing its sentience in The Edge of Destruction some extra weight, she’s effectively taking him into her confidence. Thanks.  Exactly, yeah. It's a big story for the four aboard the TARDIS. After it the Doctor, Ian, Susan and Barbara all become one family, but it's also a pretty big one for the TARDIS too. We find out that it has an awareness of sorts. That it was willing to share knowledge of that with her two Gallifreyan occupants and these two humans. It seems quite a big moment in an old TARDIS's life. |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Apr 14, 2020 9:47:29 GMT
It always makes me think back to the Tardis's line in The Doctors Wife
"No, I stole you"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 23:18:15 GMT
It always makes me think back to the Tardis's line in The Doctors Wife "No, I stole you" Oh, yes! And her struggle with explaining concepts in general. Among her first words as Idris is "Goodbye" and among her last is "Hello": Ian put his hand on the police box in that junkyard and called her alive, but she herself doesn't consider her to be. Not in the sense that Chesterton or Barbara meant precisely, so what is "life" to a TARDIS? Would a TARDIS identify itself as a chain of events, maybe? A historical overture? The pages of a book, rather than the words on the page? |
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Post by sherlock on Apr 15, 2020 0:19:24 GMT
It always makes me think back to the Tardis's line in The Doctors Wife "No, I stole you" Oh, yes! And her struggle with explaining concepts in general. Among her first words as Idris is "Goodbye" and among her last is "Hello": Ian put his hand on the police box in that junkyard and called her alive, but she herself doesn't consider her to be. Not in the sense that Chesterton or Barbara meant precisely, so what is "life" to a TARDIS? Would a TARDIS identify itself as a chain of events, maybe? A historical overture? The pages of a book, rather than the words on the page? I wonder if the way TARDISes perceive things is entirely through their own journeys, as they are at their most basic level a vehicle. Like when you’re in the driving seat of a car; you can see the roads ahead, you can see on the horizon the landmarks you might pass and you might get a glimpse of difficulties or obstacles in the way as well. Only with TARDISes; the roads ahead are time tracks, the landmarks are the worlds and timezones they might land in and the difficulties could be anything from a situation the pilot will get embroiled in to an anomaly they might encounter in transit through the Time Vortex. Their life is defined by where they have gone, where they will go and the occupants they take with them on those journeys. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 12:21:40 GMT
Oh, yes! And her struggle with explaining concepts in general. Among her first words as Idris is "Goodbye" and among her last is "Hello": Ian put his hand on the police box in that junkyard and called her alive, but she herself doesn't consider her to be. Not in the sense that Chesterton or Barbara meant precisely, so what is "life" to a TARDIS? Would a TARDIS identify itself as a chain of events, maybe? A historical overture? The pages of a book, rather than the words on the page? I wonder if the way TARDISes perceive things is entirely through their own journeys, as they are at their most basic level a vehicle. Like when you’re in the driving seat of a car; you can see the roads ahead, you can see on the horizon the landmarks you might pass and you might get a glimpse of difficulties or obstacles in the way as well. Only with TARDISes; the roads ahead are time tracks, the landmarks are the worlds and timezones they might land in and the difficulties could be anything from a situation the pilot will get embroiled in to an anomaly they might encounter in transit through the Time Vortex. Their life is defined by where they have gone, where they will go and the occupants they take with them on those journeys. That tracks. "I am the worlds I visit. I am the people who I take there. I am the orbit of rock and the atoms of thought. I am Time and Relative Dimensions in Space. I am the TARDIS." It puts into perspective the Doctor's inability to guide the TARDIS early in his life rather nicely as well. It's intended for a full crew compliment and he's handling it more or less solo, but he and the TARDIS are also communicating on fundamentally different levels. Maybe over the centuries, they're essentially working towards their own language. A personal language. One that only the two of them can share. I can see the Third Doctor having long evenings in UNIT HQ alone with the Ship, simply just chatting to her while he works on this circuit or that. |
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 15, 2020 17:18:23 GMT
Well, I am just watching the Time Monster and from what the 3rd Doctor tells Jo, he is very much aware that his Tardis is sentient.
I am not so sure about the Master and his Tardis, though.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 15, 2020 17:36:48 GMT
Well, I am just watching the Time Monster and from what the 3rd Doctor tells Jo, he is very much aware that his Tardis is sentient. I am not so sure about the Master and his Tardis, though. All those hours trying to get her working, the Third Doctor probably had a lot of time to realise the full capabilities of a TARDIS. Also whilst in exile all his knowledge of time travel was blocked, perhaps relieving him of some of the misconceptions of TARDISes he was taught on Gallifrey and allowing him to completely reevaluate how he understood his ship. The Master’s relationship with his TARDISes is probably far less friendly. Missy Series 1 went into that last year, and it certainly seems being piloted by the Master was not a pleasant experience for his many TARDISes. If he has any understanding of their sentience, it seems likely the Master would do what he could to bend it to his will. |
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 15, 2020 17:39:57 GMT
Well, I am just watching the Time Monster and from what the 3rd Doctor tells Jo, he is very much aware that his Tardis is sentient. I am not so sure about the Master and his Tardis, though. All those hours trying to get her working, the Third Doctor probably had a lot of time to realise the full capabilities of a TARDIS. Also whilst in exile all his knowledge of time travel was blocked, perhaps relieving him of some of the misconceptions of TARDISes he was taught on Gallifrey and allowing him to completely reevaluate how he understood his ship. The Master’s relationship with his TARDISes is probably far less friendly. Missy Series 1 went into that last year, and it certainly seems being piloted by the Master was not a pleasant experience for his many TARDISes. If he has any understanding of their sentience, it seems likely the Master would do what he could to bend it to his will. Yes, sounds plausible.
As for the Master... I hope the next set explores the idea of the enslaved and abused Tardis a bit more. Certainly an interesting and original idea.
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Exactly, yeah. It's a big story for the four aboard the TARDIS. After it the Doctor, Ian, Susan and Barbara all become one family, but it's also a pretty big one for the TARDIS too. We find out that it has an awareness of sorts. That it was willing to share knowledge of that with her two Gallifreyan occupants and these two humans. It seems quite a big moment in an old TARDIS's life.