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Post by Whovitt on May 13, 2020 9:02:21 GMT
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on May 13, 2020 9:30:09 GMT
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Post by mark687 on May 13, 2020 15:08:19 GMT
A brave very nearly unflinching view on picking up the pieces and striving to make sense of life during and after an the occupation and what is "Just" plus there are extremely powerful performances from Maranda, Katarina and Lisa, and one of Colin's more nuanced approaches as 6th.
5/5
Regards
mark687
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Post by antartiks on May 13, 2020 21:18:37 GMT
Halfway through this and even though the Main Range has been really enjoyable since Subterfuge, this is really the best one of 2020 yet. I agree with mark687 on this one.
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melkur
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 3,879 
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Post by melkur on May 14, 2020 0:26:10 GMT
'Finished listening to this about half-an-hour ago &, whilst I did find it a little long in places (probably because I listened to parts one to three back-to-back), I did also find this one of the best main range stories in a while!
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Post by themeddlingmonk on May 14, 2020 0:40:15 GMT
Okay I’m gonna say it:
Flip and Connie are the new Evelyn
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Post by fingersmash on May 14, 2020 1:47:45 GMT
Okay I’m gonna say it: Flip and Connie are the new Evelyn Six is just a magnet for really good companions. Between Peri, Evelyn, Charley, Old Jamie, Brewster, Flip, Constance, and Mel, the only dud he's had was Brewster (who is probably the most unlikable character in the entire Doctor Who universe) 7/8 is an awesome record. |
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on May 14, 2020 7:38:38 GMT
Is it just my ears, or does it sound like Lucian says something a lot naughtier than “cats” in episode two?
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Post by antartiks on May 14, 2020 9:13:07 GMT
Finished it in one go yesterday and my opinion remains unchanged, this was really good. More from Chris Chapman please.
I agree regarding Flip and Connie, this trio is currently my favorite TARDIS crew with Eight, Liv and Helen. They just work flawlessly together.
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Post by elkawho on May 14, 2020 12:16:41 GMT
This story is a gem, a gift to us from BF. Both horrifying and beautiful at the same time. As for many of us, WWII continues to follow us due to the family members that lived it, so most stories set during those times hit a special nerve, at least for me. The harsh realities of wartime and immediately post war are not glossed over here, and the scapegoating that went on is highlighted appropriately. Good people did dreadful things on all sides, and it can be so very hard for us to understand any of it. Constance's behavior, and Flip's response to it is perfectly understandable. The complexity of human emotion is the core of the story, and I love the fact that the folks at BF are not afraid to tell these kinds of tales. All the actors were perfect in this, and I've loved Katerina Olson since the EDAs. It was great having her in this story. I place this one up there with The Peterloo Massacre and Farewell, Great Macedon as Big Finish's best historicals.
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Post by antartiks on May 15, 2020 10:43:19 GMT
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Post by number13 on May 15, 2020 11:51:48 GMT
My reaction to this one was SO out of line with everyone else that there are loads of things I could criticise but I won't waste your time with too many details. Briefly, I found the characters and 'angle' predictable once I got the theme (nasty - or at least PTSD-suffering - French Resistance man, saintly "collaborating" Clementine to be a sympathetic and unjustifed victim, helpful friendly German POWs - what had they done in the previous 5 years I wonder? - and British troops used largely as comic relief - 'late to the fight' again and again eh chaps? Oh what a hoot! Never mind, you'll have lots more chances to fight - and maybe die - on the way to Germany, your war has 8 months to run yet. [/sarcasm]) And I really didn't like the alien either! A pure historical would have served this theme better imo with more time to show other sides of the situation; I thought the sci-fi aspects were a distraction.
But the worst of it was that for me, despite the wonderful performances, I didn't believe in the breakdown in Constance and Flip's relationship, or the conclusion. I love this Sixie/Constance/Flip team and they've been through so much together, up to and including literally coming back from the dead, I found it inconceivable that Flip would freeze Constance out as she did, for all that she was shocked by Constance's (misdirected) anger. I thought this made Flip seem shallow and unintelligent, when we know she isn't, and naive, when we know she's had so many mind-broadening experiences. Surely as a true friend, 'sister' and comrade-in-TARDIS, Flip might have felt surprised and hurt, but would have wanted to understand Constance's reaction and to help her find her way through it. Anyone of or from any age must have been able to see it for what it was - even the redoubtable Mrs. Clarke has suffered 'war damage' and this is the moment she snapped and 'fired off' at the wrong target.
And at the end, Constance apologises, apparently for all her wartime anger and hate (And all of it gone in an instant, just like that. No.) and Flip forgives her with almost Papal grace, without any acknowledgement that Constance had every right to be angry and to hate the Nazis and their hangers-on (though not Clementine of course, who was young, naive and even selfish, but not evil in what she did.)
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Post by IndieMacUser on May 15, 2020 15:41:27 GMT
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Post by fingersmash on May 15, 2020 17:43:24 GMT
I'm only halfway through this but damn this is just stellar. Unless the second disc messes it all up, I think that between this, Age of the Death Lottery, and Heritage 3, May 2020 might be one of the strongest months in Big Finish history.
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Post by tuigirl on May 15, 2020 18:58:32 GMT
This was REALLY good. It got quite dark in places and while it is a great story, it is not what I would call "enjoyable" throughout.
The leads again are amazing. Would anyone guess from this that Colin is nearly 80?
I liked that the story tackled some difficult topics and did not shy away from having the two companions standing on different sides (and having a little fight). The story also does not paint everything black and white, as in reality, things are... complicated.
And it is a great example of how much the character of Sixie has grown that he does not loudly and arrogantly plow into the situation but keeps a calm head and understands that discretion is the better part of valor.
The monster of the week... yes, it was original, however, I would also have enjoyed a straight historic story.
So again, this TARDIS team is used perfectly according to their strengths and weaknesses.
We get an interesting story and some great performances.
And, thank you!, we are spared from bad German accents. The German accents are very underplayed, which is a real bonus. Bad accents can be a bit distracting.
But as good as this is... I am NOT happy at all with the treatment of the Nazis and how they (maybe?) get away. These guys basically admit that they were pretty bad and deserved punishment from a demon from hell. One of the guys has a Mercedes !! car. Only very rich and/ or powerful Nazis would have had access to one of those. These guys were not like my grandparents, who were basically village farmers who were forced to invade Russia and had no real clue what was really going on.
These guys presumably were much higher up the food chain and would have had some involvements and knowledge! of atrocities and crimes committed.
If they fear a demon from hell, they might even have had their hands in things like rounding up Jewish children and transferring them to the death camps (as has happened in France at that time).
I find it utterly wrong that the Doctor teams up with them so easily and does not really question them and then HE LETS THEM GET AWAY.
If they were just some "normal" German soldiers, like my granddads were, well, I would not have in issue with this. But these guys pretty much confessed how bad they were and were in possession of a very expensive, fancy car. These guys were in the same league as the people who ordered that air raid that nearly got dear old baby Colin killed.
For me, this just feels very wrong.
I am all for forgiveness and make peace, but there are certain things that should not go unpunished.
Hmm. I hope I was not sounding too negative here and I am not dragging this thread down too much. But when topics like that are tackled, and characters like these included, they should not be waved away so easily.
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Post by fingersmash on May 15, 2020 19:46:25 GMT
But as good as this is... I am NOT happy at all with the treatment of the Nazis and how they (maybe?) get away. These guys basically admit that they were pretty bad and deserved punishment from a demon from hell. One of the guys has a Mercedes !! car. Only very rich and/ or powerful Nazis would have had access to one of those. These guys were not like my grandparents, who were basically village farmers who were forced to invade Russia and had no real clue what was really going on.
These guys presumably were much higher up the food chain and would have had some involvements and knowledge! of atrocities and crimes committed.
If they fear a demon from hell, they might even have had their hands in things like rounding up Jewish children and transferring them to the death camps (as has happened in France at that time).
I find it utterly wrong that the Doctor teams up with them so easily and does not really question them and then HE LETS THEM GET AWAY.
If they were just some "normal" German soldiers, like my granddads were, well, I would not have in issue with this. But these guys pretty much confessed how bad they were and were in possession of a very expensive, fancy car. These guys were in the same league as the people who ordered that air raid that nearly got dear old baby Colin killed.
For me, this just feels very wrong.
I am all for forgiveness and make peace, but there are certain things that should not go unpunished. Devil's advocate here, but Sixie does say they'll get their comeuppance at the end. I think the fact that 1) they realized their wrongdoing (the punishment from hell) and 2) the fact that Six flat out says he's never been on their side before helps A LOT in this area. I'm no apologist, but I like that the Nazi POWs weren't mustache twirling evil villains. They were humans who realized what they did was monstrous and submitted themselves to whatever punishment lay in wait for them, tried to make good for the village (which they sort of did) and then drove off into the night with the implication they'll be caught and punished for their crimes. Scorched Earth felt like a "history is written by the victors" tale where everyone lies on a shade of gray and the Doctor and companions can only help bring out the innate good in everyone in the story and the Nazis helped drive that point home. It's a bit of Sympathy for the Devil. |
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Post by number13 on May 15, 2020 21:45:35 GMT
I find it utterly wrong that the Doctor teams up with them so easily and does not really question them and then HE LETS THEM GET AWAY. Personally I don't think we need worry about the Doctor's actions - like Churchill allying Britain with Stalin, he knew that sometimes making a choice between devils was the right thing to do, and here with many innocent lives at risk from the Furio and no time to lose, the Doctor took help from wherever he could get it.
And as for the ending, well, Klaus had a top-ranking officers' car and said he 'drove it into Paris in 1940', so even by 1940 he must have been a very senior Nazi (a General perhaps?) and if Klaus is someone that significant in History, the Doctor probably knew exactly who he was and what justice awaited him after the war. He did sort of imply so - and the Doctor usually knows these things!...
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What bothered me was that the only Germans we meet are a very senior officer and his aides (presumably guilty as hell of assisting/organising war crimes) and they're "better" in terms of their actions in the story than the only French Resistance member we meet, who is the villain. This was the sort of thing which nagged at me all through and helped to put me off. The only "traitor" we meet is an effectively innocent young woman, not one of the many who really did betray their country and their fellow citizens to the Nazis - discovering the crimes of one of them would have given the Flip/Constance argument much more meat - how would Flip have responded to that?
It would also have been very welcome to hear from a clearly good, heroic Resistance fighter, or someone who had lost family in one of the many mass shootings carried out in retribution for their struggles. And to have met some ordinary German soldiers, not Nazis, hearing what they'd seen (and had been ordered to do) in occupied France. Or maybe a little cut-away to hear what happened to Clementine's lover at Stalingrad. I think that a pure historical would have had the space to make these sort of contrasts and would have been a better treatment of the same basic story. |
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on May 15, 2020 22:40:43 GMT
I enjoyed it, liking how they turned on the head the usual somewhat trite “rebels good guy, Nazis bad guys” structure of these sort of things while at the same time keeping us well aware that most rebels are the better people than most Nazis.
However one thing wrung odd - Constance’s speech about hate at the end and how she’d normalised her hatred of Nazis. It might have been a while since I heard a Constance story, and I might have missed it when it did, but that’s never come up before. We got “Ohh thsts the sort of nasty fascist thinking we’re fighting a ware over” style comments but no indication that she hated Nazis to the point she’d support, or at least excuse, assaulting women.
I’d have loved there to have been a line from the Doctor:
“Flip why do you think I never hang around after the tyrant is defeated or the invading army expelled? It’s because something like this always happens. Petty acts of revenge against people, many of whom were entirely innocent of anything other than trying to survive.”
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Post by number13 on May 16, 2020 1:04:15 GMT
I enjoyed it, liking how they turned on the head the usual somewhat trite “rebels good guy, Nazis bad guys” structure of these sort of things while at the same time keeping us well aware that most rebels are the better people than most Nazis. In a nutshell, that's a part of why I didn't enjoy it. I half expected this would be the direction of the story because it seems the fashion in fiction (not talking specifically about BF) to have to invert expectations (so much so, that now is the expectation), but still hoped it wouldn't be, not in this case. |
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Post by constonks on May 16, 2020 5:44:20 GMT
Overall, I liked this. The resolution felt very Doctory to me. To me, he'll always be the Man (or Woman) Who Finds Another Way. (also I too was horrified by Constance's opinions, the same way Flip was, but I suppose that was the point!)
The weirdest thing to me was how July 1944 was treated as Constance's future. Her attempted return in Quicksilver was apparently some time after Criss-Cross, which was set in 1944, so it can't be that far off! I'm not sure why this was treated as "the near future" and not a "well, Mrs. Clark, are you staying or coming with us?" But that's really rather minor in the grand scheme of things!
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