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Post by karldwilliams on Sept 27, 2020 19:27:50 GMT
I mean Netflix and Microsoft are hardly equivalent, they're so big that the subscription finances 8t all but BF tends to sell around 2000 on average title according to Nick's previous comments, some of which are picking and choosing individual titles, waiting for sales, or picking them up second hand on eBay later. If Nick says thd subscription model is no longer financing the range then that sounds believable to me.
Also if BF put all those ranges in the MR it wouldn't be the Main Range, it would be The Range. You'd wait forever for your favourite Doctor to come round again or have 30 MR titles a year...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 20:02:43 GMT
... as for subscription model no longer being popular tell that to all the major companies......it works for microsoft, apple, netflix, amazon, magazines etc The subscription model is actually becoming more popular now in the digital media world than it's ever been... everybody seems to want to sign you up for something these days - for a monthly fee of course - while BF think that subscriptions are outdated and not popular. (?)
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 27, 2020 20:11:22 GMT
... as for subscription model no longer being popular tell that to all the major companies......it works for microsoft, apple, netflix, amazon, magazines etc The subscription model is actually becoming more popular now in the digital media world than it's ever been... everybody seems to want to sign you up for something these days - for a monthly fee of course - while BF think that subscriptions are outdated and not popular. (?) Must be the advice of that famous marketing team of theirs....
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Post by mark687 on Sept 27, 2020 20:43:47 GMT
nick's comments today in the podcast about ending main range infuriated me....... the reason the main range has become less popular is the lack of transition of it as BF gained new doctors, and diversified their out put....... if it had 4th 8th 10th river Jago/Lightfoot in it would make it a much better prospect for people to buy, the trilogy's are also a hinderance and the lack of a three month sub......everything we have been asking for for years Stop blaming Us for your love of boxes...... as for subscription model no longer being popular tell that to all the major companies......it works for microsoft, apple, netflix, amazon, magazines etc it your lack of diversity that has allowed it to die..... shame on you nick and the bad decision you made over last few years or maybe that's been your intention.....(it's the three part tales all over again) now lets have the commitment from BF that while they are able they will continue to produce 5th 6th & 7th boxes regardless of how they sell on their own! can I try and get everyone who doesn't think this is a great idea, now the details are starting to emerge to email to big finish and express their disappointment and get some kind of commitment and clarity Going forward BF have got to use the most financially viable method, I am surprised that its boxsets but there you have it. But I do agree even allowing for Covid disruption once again another major change in status quo is being poorly handled. Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 21:11:15 GMT
... as for subscription model no longer being popular tell that to all the major companies......it works for microsoft, apple, netflix, amazon, magazines etc The subscription model is actually becoming more popular now in the digital media world than it's ever been... everybody seems to want to sign you up for something these days - for a monthly fee of course - while BF think that subscriptions are outdated and not popular. (?) A subscription model brings in a consistent amount of money every month compared to a "big bang" release every 3 years (in the case of Microsoft 365). Better for business. Difference being that all those subscriptions are digital only, therefore no per-customer costs. You will have to add new servers every few hundred customers but you won't have to ship a box to every subscriber once a month. Ridiculous! Or ship anything at all. And, of course, subscription models tend to be based around services that people will need all the time. In the case of entertainment subscriptions, they rely on variety. A lot of variety, which the main range...doesn't have. I also just realised that this Main Range thing is not a subscription at all (at least, not in the way we mean it nowadays). None of these other services use subscription to mean "preorder a very specific selection of titles where you know the format (two discs worth of audio) but not the content." An equivalent subscription would be access to all releases for a range/Doctor at a consistent, set price. But it kinda relies on not having to worry about physical releases at all.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Sept 27, 2020 21:30:10 GMT
The subscription model is actually becoming more popular now in the digital media world than it's ever been... everybody seems to want to sign you up for something these days - for a monthly fee of course - while BF think that subscriptions are outdated and not popular. (?) A subscription model brings in a consistent amount of money every month compared to a "big bang" release every 3 years (in the case of Microsoft 365). Better for business. Difference being that all those subscriptions are digital only, therefore no per-customer costs. You will have to add new servers every few hundred customers but you won't have to ship a box to every subscriber once a month. Ridiculous! Or ship anything at all. And, of course, subscription models tend to be based around services that people will need all the time. In the case of entertainment subscriptions, they rely on variety. A lot of variety, which the main range...doesn't have. I also just realised that this Main Range thing is not a subscription at all (at least, not in the way we mean it nowadays). None of these other services use subscription to mean "preorder a very specific selection of titles where you know the format (two discs worth of audio) but not the content." An equivalent subscription would be access to all releases for a range/Doctor at a consistent, set price. But it kinda relies on not having to worry about physical releases at all. Fair point that what we mean by subscription has changed over the last few years
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 21:36:58 GMT
I also just realised that this Main Range thing is not a subscription at all (at least, not in the way we mean it nowadays). None of these other services use subscription to mean "preorder a very specific selection of titles where you know the format (two discs worth of audio) but not the content." An equivalent subscription would be access to all releases for a range/Doctor at a consistent, set price. But it kinda relies on not having to worry about physical releases at all. Fair point that what we mean by subscription has changed over the last few years I was just about to throw out the question: how well do you think these old-style subscriptions are doing nowadays? (I'll call them "bundle preorders" from now on.) I'd say not well because the Netflix model's variety way outweighs the disadvantage of losing everything when you cancel.
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Post by muckypup on Sept 27, 2020 21:57:33 GMT
Also if BF put all those ranges in the MR it wouldn't be the Main Range, it would be The Range. You'd wait forever for your favourite Doctor to come round again or have 30 MR titles a year... No it wouldn’t we only have 5 doctors recording consistently and 2 or 3 other ranges that fit the dr who title like river.......everyone could have 1 release every 8-10 months......... but it’s irrelevant now, my worry is that 5,6,7 sell a lot less than 4, 8 & 10 so priority will be to reduce their output and increase The others...... we go from 3 - 2 hours titles a year & 1 or 2 experiment releases(4 30 mins etc), to 1 box of 3 1-hour titles........ I trust nicks handling of the ship less and less these day..........perhaps it’s time for him to step down as head honcho and get back to what he likes doing best.......But that’s discussion is for another day........
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 22:38:50 GMT
I remember Nick saying that BF has a fairly solid 'fanbase' but finds it difficult bringing in new people outside of that. So, with more and more ranges available, some ranges are going to suffer. It's understandable that 'big' stories like one-offs featuring the Tenth Doctor will take the lion's share of the interest - but, in my view - there are only so many times Doctor 10 can meet Doctor 4, or River can meet early Doctors etc etc. This is possibly one of the reasons Gary Russell concentrated more on stories than *big* meet-ups when he was in charge, fun though they are: the appeal of these event releases are finite. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. That may be one of the reasons why a story/release/box-set that doesn't feature a big headline 'gimmick' (wrong word, but its in the right ball-park!) has coined then name 'filler' and may not sell as well. And this is a problem, it would seem.
As a listener, I buy far less BF stuff than I used to. I think JNT coined the phrase 'Who-ed out'; when you constantly present the listener with big, epic set-pieces and classic meet-ups, there comes a time when something has to give. It sells well now, apparently, but how long before people get 'Who-ed out' by it all? I have - and I never thought I would. So getting rid of the main range, or scaling down Doctors 5, 6 and 7, or whatever Nick is planning on doing, could well be a mistake. They are the bedrock of BF (for me, certainly) and comprise of the majority of Who-related product that I buy. It seems I'm in the minority, but the big, loud, universe-straddling story-lines won't be everyone's cup of tea forever. In short, 'nothing can be eternal ...'
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Post by coffeeaddict on Sept 27, 2020 23:43:30 GMT
I remember Nick saying that BF has a fairly solid 'fanbase' but finds it difficult bringing in new people outside of that. So, with more and more ranges available, some ranges are going to suffer. It's understandable that 'big' stories like one-offs featuring the Tenth Doctor will take the lion's share of the interest - but, in my view - there are only so many times Doctor 10 can meet Doctor 4, or River can meet early Doctors etc etc. This is possibly one of the reasons Gary Russell concentrated more on stories than *big* meet-ups when he was in charge, fun though they are: the appeal of these event releases are finite. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. That may be one of the reasons why a story/release/box-set that doesn't feature a big headline 'gimmick' (wrong word, but its in the right ball-park!) has coined then name 'filler' and may not sell as well. And this is a problem, it would seem. As a listener, I buy far less BF stuff than I used to. I think JNT coined the phrase 'Who-ed out'; when you constantly present the listener with big, epic set-pieces and classic meet-ups, there comes a time when something has to give. It sells well now, apparently, but how long before people get 'Who-ed out' by it all? I have - and I never thought I would. So getting rid of the main range, or scaling down Doctors 5, 6 and 7, or whatever Nick is planning on doing, could well be a mistake. They are the bedrock of BF (for me, certainly) and comprise of the majority of Who-related product that I buy. It seems I'm in the minority, but the big, loud, universe-straddling story-lines won't be everyone's cup of tea forever. In short, 'nothing can be eternal ...'
Call me crazy, but could the difficulties in attracting new customers be less to do with the product and more to do with the inept marketing direction they have employed over the years? Someone will no doubt correct me if I am wrong, but unless you subscribe to DW Magazine, the likelihood of having heard about BF in North American (certainly Canada in my experience) depended 100% on word of mouth from other fans. If I remember correctly I stumbled across BF years ago when looking for DW books on Amazon and figured for $20 I would give it a try - finding them was a pure fluke, market your product across a wider platform (and no, I don't mean the mindless social media crap they love) and perhaps new customers would be easier to attract. Just a thought. As to Nick - frankly, I think BF needs to attract some new voices to take on some of the writing and acting that he does. Not only I am pretty bored of hearing the Daleks and think they need to be given a year or so off (by which I mean, zero appearances anywhere, and when brought back, done in such a way as to make them a credible adversary), it also seems that almost every monster that is brought in is voiced by him - and frankly everything is starting to sound the same as a result. Due to his being so busy with all his other projects, it wouldn't hurt if he was given fewer writing assignments, perhaps allowing for fresh ideas coming from more new voices.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Sept 28, 2020 1:41:33 GMT
I think all of these comments about what is the best step forward for the company are best left to the company: as I’ve said previously, they’re the only ones with the information about what sells for them and what doesn’t. We aren’t in the position of knowing what does or doesn’t work as a strategy. It may well be that numbers are down on Main Range.titles which is why they are changing its structure. It could well be that with the addition of Tennant and Eccleston to the “stable” they have got a glut of material and are trying to pace it out more regularlY without flooding the market and diminishing all their income through over-saturation. We don’t know. I know that it wouldn’t have been a decision entered into lightly: there was the fuss about postage a couple of years ago but they were upfront about the whys and wherefores of it. They were also going to be more realistic about the pricing of plays for overseas listeners: thankfully that hasn’t come into play yet, despite us being told that it was going to be happening soon.
Ultimately, it’s their company and they’ve got to make money from it in order to continue supplying us with our fix, I mean audio-plays. I have very little experience in marketing but my wife spent several years working for a media company and, according to her, advertising outside your niche is often a very costly exercise that very rarely pays off.
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Sept 28, 2020 7:40:33 GMT
I'd agree with the above. Only BF know the numbers so good luck to them.
However, it does seem a risky move from an outsider looking in as the removal of subscriptions means they wont get that guaranteed income over the next 6 to 12 months. Fans can now pick and choose, and if not many go for pick then the income wont be great.
Time will tell and all that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 10:42:28 GMT
I think all of these comments about what is the best step forward for the company are best left to the company: as I’ve said previously, they’re the only ones with the information about what sells for them and what doesn’t. We aren’t in the position of knowing what does or doesn’t work as a strategy. It may well be that numbers are down on Main Range.titles which is why they are changing its structure. It could well be that with the addition of Tennant and Eccleston to the “stable” they have got a glut of material and are trying to pace it out more regularlY without flooding the market and diminishing all their income through over-saturation. We don’t know. I know that it wouldn’t have been a decision entered into lightly: there was the fuss about postage a couple of years ago but they were upfront about the whys and wherefores of it. They were also going to be more realistic about the pricing of plays for overseas listeners: thankfully that hasn’t come into play yet, despite us being told that it was going to be happening soon. Ultimately, it’s their company and they’ve got to make money from it in order to continue supplying us with our fix, I mean audio-plays. I have very little experience in marketing but my wife spent several years working for a media company and, according to her, advertising outside your niche is often a very costly exercise that very rarely pays off. I absolutely agree with much of what you say, but as people that buy these audios, I'd say posters here are discussing decisions being made on a forum dedicated to BF. What is said here probably won't influence anything, but all we're doing is having a natter, and I'm sure Big Finish wouldn't want to discourage that.
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Post by Kestrel on Sept 28, 2020 10:59:16 GMT
Maybe it's a meaningless semantic distinction, but the increasing prevalence of subscription services does not necessarily indicate the popularity of the subscription model. The one is determined by the media producers, the other by media consumers. And frankly, I've never met a single person clamoring for more services to subscribe to... just the opposite, in fact.
....
Anywah, what I'm curious about here is what this shift will mean for the rate-of-release. Y'all think we can safely assume one 5DA, one 6DA and one 7DA boxset per year, which would be roughly analogous to the MR's 12 stories per year, or do you expect them to maintain parity with the MR rate, which would be two sets per year for each Doctor, since the boxset stories are approximately half the length of the MR stories?
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Sept 28, 2020 11:30:10 GMT
I'd agree with the above. Only BF know the numbers so good luck to them. However, it does seem a risky move from an outsider looking in as the removal of subscriptions means they wont get that guaranteed income over the next 6 to 12 months. Fans can now pick and choose, and if not many go for pick then the income wont be great. Time will tell and all that. Nick implied in yesterday's podcast that the number of people taking out subs has fallen, when he said something along the lines of "it's not us choosing this, it's you". I took that to mean BF were responding to customer spending patterns, i.e. following rather than seeking to lead customers.
So maybe what they are giving up is not actually that much in ££ terms?
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Post by polly on Sept 28, 2020 21:02:50 GMT
I'm definitely part of the problem then, when it comes to subscriptions. Only very rarely have I paid for a sub, and only once did that include stories that had not been released yet. I am a cherry picker by nature and not just with Big Finish. My iTunes collection is all individual songs, I pretty much never buy full albums. And then the other part of that is simply that I have a massive backlog, and why not shop sales and permanent discounts instead of buying new stuff right away? With an account full of 700+ downloads, I am plenty busy.
I still think they over-extended themselves a little bit. There's just too much to follow, if I had a mind to keep current. For myself, with the increasing Doctor Who diaspora, I have not purchased more things, I have made the same amount of purchases now spread through more ranges. I don't know how indicative that is of the average customer, but it makes sense to me that if you have a wide array of product lines and a small customer base, then the smaller that base is the more each individual customer must buy to keep it going.
I am not in favor of ending the main range at all, but I am not opposed to cleaning house somewhat. There are too many Doctor Who ranges. I'd even argue there are too many Torchwood ranges. There are too many spinoffs and boxsets, and not as unique feeling as the earliest of them seemed. It reminds me of trying to follow comics in the 90s where you had 3-4 different monthly Batman titles, which often were interconnected between themselves. Except, those books cost under five bucks and Big Finish is a lot more pricey than that.
It's excessive, and if, as others have suggested, some of the various Xth Doctor Adventures were folded into the Main Range and the others pared down, it would have made it easier to be a consistent month-to-month buyer. I don't think fracturing everything further into ever more specific ranges is the right plan.
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 28, 2020 22:32:14 GMT
Anywah, what I'm curious about here is what this shift will mean for the rate-of-release. Y'all think we can safely assume one 5DA, one 6DA and one 7DA boxset per year, which would be roughly analogous to the MR's 12 stories per year, or do you expect them to maintain parity with the MR rate, which would be two sets per year for each Doctor, since the boxset stories are approximately half the length of the MR stories? I can only hope they're looking to the 4th Doctor as a model here and we will see two sets a year from Doctors 4-7. If that model will work for the other Doctors then we can have more hours less expensively, and people will be able to pick and choose their Doctors. Especially if it's going to be part of the conversation that the cast are getting up in years, I don't know what sense it makes to do less with them on that account. I'm still surprised they can save that much on production costs with boxsets, but so it seems to be. On the other hand, I understand the concerns of those such as muckypup, and I hope the success of the 4th Doctor model isn't an illusion created by the 4th Doctor's popularity. I could do with a bit more re-assurance myself at least when it comes to some other Doctors. We've seen at least a few ranges scuttled now and I do worry what could happen with Doctors seen as less popular. Something I really don't quite understand is how it could be cost effective to keep doing stuff that has to be considerably more niche than Doctor Who, but not so to do things like the Early Adventures or the Monthly Range as we knew them. I'd be as happy to buy everything BF does - for awhile I was trying - but with the talk about raising prices for overseas customers, the axe has already started to fall with the realization that even if I could budget everything, I probably wouldn't be able to do so indefinitely. Other than Dark Shadows which is giving us less and less buying opportunities anyway, the non-DW stuff is naturally first to go. I can certainly understand people being forced to pick and choose from DW titles, but on that note I think it's only natural that there'd be a decline in subscriptions and sales in other classic ranges as regular customers re-direct funds to numerous New Series releases, so I'm not sure I know the difference in a decline in sales in a particular range and a decline in sales overall. I think I will leave it to Big Finish as they probably know best, and try to stay hopeful that things could still work out well for both them and for customers.
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Post by karldwilliams on Sept 28, 2020 22:58:10 GMT
I guess the boxset model may benefit people and BF pre-order sales if people can drop Doctor 5/6/7 (whichever they're not keen on in the current subscription model) as people don't have to begrudge buying into the one they don't like. However I palzo don't see this overall skewing sales so far as one of them becoming uneconomical to continue as all three Doctors have their fans so it should even out? For everyone who dislikes Five there's someone who dislikes Six and someone who dislikes Seven. So hopefully it's win-win for customers and BF with the boxset bundle era.
I like the idea of more variety in length and format and bringing whole boxsets rather than waiting each month. I'll probably continue buying everything Who even if the urge to drop Seven does occasionally raise it's bitter head! I'd hate to miss the occasionally good/great one that comes through which is why I have to buy them all rather than pick and choose.
When I started I was only going to buy Eighth Doctor stuff as I dislikes 80s who intensely but having caught up with Eight I dipped into 5, 6 & 7 from the start intending to try a few until I got bored and here I am with them all. Sixie was a revelation on audio and quickly became my fav BF Doctor, even surpassing Eight. Five started out meh and has been on and off since, loved the Erimem run, loved the Adric run, loving the Marc run. Seven is still my least favourite despite some great individual stories and a couple of great runs (Klein, Hex) but he's still the most likely to disappoint. The Ace & Mel run was mostly blah and they've failed the carve ppout a decent post Ace era so I'm suffering from Ace fatigue. I do like the rare later morose Seven as in Valhalla, and loved the New Adventures boxset but Seven is the one I'm most likely to drop to save pennies once they're purchaseable by Doctor.
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Post by mrperson on Sept 29, 2020 21:05:31 GMT
I really REALLY hope this does not mean that the norm will be sets of four one-hour episodes. There are plenty of enjoyable stories that are one hour long, some have a great deal of depth. But Who has always felt much more right in long form for me.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Sept 29, 2020 21:17:02 GMT
I have been buying less & less BF over the past few months, this change won't reverse that for me I am afraid.
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