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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 5, 2020 0:22:11 GMT
One Doctor Who writer who springs to mind is @paul_CornellHis Twitter thread is a little bit preoccupied in pro-alignment with fashionable issues such as social justice and as of this past week, overwhelmingly concerned with BAME justice. During a recent tweetalong for 'Human Nature' many fans who had never interacted with him on Twitter found that they could not really take part as they were blocked by him, owing to having expressed opinions of which he disagrees, in the past. Gareth Roberts who apparently has known him from decades back, was quite scathing in making clear that he felt so much of it is insincere. Many speculate that he is working hard to put himself in the radar of the Chris Chibnall for another TV commission. Let's not assume criticism of Cornell as being against these causes oneself, mind, but of the fact that he has become so evangelical of late and intolerant of perceived disagreement. Don't buy it - Cornell is agented, he has channels if he wants to get staffed. I highly doubt Chibs is picking writers off of twitter postings. Plus, rich of Roberts of all people to lecture about insincerity, Mr. 'Let me apologize but not and still attack a part of my own community to impress my newfound Conservative friends'.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 9:26:07 GMT
One Doctor Who writer who springs to mind is @paul_CornellHis Twitter thread is a little bit preoccupied in pro-alignment with fashionable issues such as social justice and as of this past week, overwhelmingly concerned with BAME justice. During a recent tweetalong for 'Human Nature' many fans who had never interacted with him on Twitter found that they could not really take part as they were blocked by him, owing to having expressed opinions of which he disagrees, in the past. Gareth Roberts who apparently has known him from decades back, was quite scathing in making clear that he felt so much of it is insincere. Many speculate that he is working hard to put himself in the radar of the Chris Chibnall for another TV commission. Let's not assume criticism of Cornell as being against these causes oneself, mind, but of the fact that he has become so evangelical of late and intolerant of perceived disagreement. Blocking people who disagree is something he is entitled to do, of course, but it's hard to respect anyone who chooses to live in their own echo chamber. Not listening to other people, not stepping outside your own terms of reference is self-destructive in my view. Regarding Big Finish, 'should' they reference events that are going on in the world (even if they were allowed to)? It's interesting that they have stopped promoting Gareth Roberts stories or productions featuring James Dreyfuss - but without actually commenting on the individuals concerned (as far as I am aware). I think they are right to take this approach, because for all those who condemn Dreyfuss (for example), there are those who say that there is no proof that he's done anything wrong. It's a difficult balance, and something I think BF have, in the main, got right.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 5, 2020 10:15:12 GMT
I think that if BF have admitted to being unable to comment due to their being an issue with their agreement with the BBC, I can live with that. I also follow several staffers of the company and they haven’t been shy with putting their views on display. I do think that the company has made a concerted effort over the last few years to be a bit more proactive in being more reflective of society in their casting and production and that, for me, speaks much louder than any posting on social media.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 11:11:53 GMT
One Doctor Who writer who springs to mind is @paul_CornellHis Twitter thread is a little bit preoccupied in pro-alignment with fashionable issues such as social justice and as of this past week, overwhelmingly concerned with BAME justice. During a recent tweetalong for 'Human Nature' many fans who had never interacted with him on Twitter found that they could not really take part as they were blocked by him, owing to having expressed opinions of which he disagrees, in the past. Gareth Roberts who apparently has known him from decades back, was quite scathing in making clear that he felt so much of it is insincere. Many speculate that he is working hard to put himself in the radar of the Chris Chibnall for another TV commission. Let's not assume criticism of Cornell as being against these causes oneself, mind, but of the fact that he has become so evangelical of late and intolerant of perceived disagreement. Blocking people who disagree is something he is entitled to do, of course, but it's hard to respect anyone who chooses to live in their own echo chamber. Not listening to other people, not stepping outside your own terms of reference is self-destructive in my view. Regarding Big Finish, 'should' they reference events that are going on in the world (even if they were allowed to)? It's interesting that they have stopped promoting Gareth Roberts stories or productions featuring James Dreyfuss - but without actually commenting on the individuals concerned (as far as I am aware). I think they are right to take this approach, because for all those who condemn Dreyfuss (for example), there are those who say that there is no proof that he's done anything wrong. It's a difficult balance, and something I think BF have, in the main, got right. On a wider note, Politics is divisive. Like avoiding discussing it with friends of different viewpoints. What you gain in one hand you lose in support with the other. Much was made about Peter Davison quitting social media (twitter) after the pile-on he received for commenting on the appointment of Jodie Whittaker, but not so much on Paul McGann quietly deleting his own Twitter account. From what I recall, he was very anti brexit and pro Jeremy Corbyn/Momentum. All perfectly within his right and with spoken with integrity, given his Liverpudlian background, but alas we live in a time where an intolerant few exercise the power to shut down others. Whatever happened to politely disagreeing, or agreeing to differ? As you (and shutupbanks) say, BF are wise in their approach to quietly get on with things and be judged on actions, not words.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 12:09:10 GMT
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jun 5, 2020 12:16:17 GMT
Whenever something "big" happens on the news I expect my elected representatives to comment on it publicly and those affected. I don't expect my dentist or my children's schoolteachers or the person who served me at the checkout in the supermarket last week to comment on it. I have no problem if they do want to comment, but (with all due respect to those individuals) I'm not all that interested in their comments and wouldn't go out of my way to read them.
So why do we feel there is an onus on the producer of audio dramas we listen to to comment on it? In the grand sceme of things, what difference does it make to my enjoyment of BF what Jason and Nick think of the current riots or of Brexit or if they fiddle their tax returns or if they prefer brown or red sauce with their chips?
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 5, 2020 12:28:09 GMT
Blocking people who disagree is something he is entitled to do, of course, but it's hard to respect anyone who chooses to live in their own echo chamber. Not listening to other people, not stepping outside your own terms of reference is self-destructive in my view. Regarding Big Finish, 'should' they reference events that are going on in the world (even if they were allowed to)? It's interesting that they have stopped promoting Gareth Roberts stories or productions featuring James Dreyfuss - but without actually commenting on the individuals concerned (as far as I am aware). I think they are right to take this approach, because for all those who condemn Dreyfuss (for example), there are those who say that there is no proof that he's done anything wrong. It's a difficult balance, and something I think BF have, in the main, got right. On a wider note, Politics is divisive. Like avoiding discussing it with friends of different viewpoints. What you gain in one hand you lose in support with the other. Much was made about Peter Davison quitting social media (twitter) after the pile-on he received for commenting on the appointment of Jodie Whittaker, but not so much on Paul McGann quietly deleting his own Twitter account. From what I recall, he was very anti brexit and pro Jeremy Corbyn/Momentum. All perfectly within his right and with spoken with integrity, given his Liverpudlian background, but alas we live in a time where an intolerant few exercise the power to shut down others. Whatever happened to politely disagreeing, or agreeing to differ? As you (and shutupbanks ) say, BF are wise in their approach to quietly get on with things and be judged on actions, not words. I get the frustration in all this - social media magnifies things so much more than once upon a time. you feel like you can't get away from this or that. However, being someone into history and as someone who has been at the crossroads of various debates and social causes over the years, 'both sides' is something of a bugbear of mine. It's a nice sentiment broadly, and there are cases where it is valid, but most times, it's used as a means to let weak or bad ideas off the hook. Ideas being challenged is how they get better, and starting from a place of 'both are equal/have equal elements of right and wrong' is somewhat counterproductive to being able to rigourously test them and see their worth (it's like Syndrome saying in Incredibles, 'With everyone super, no one will be'.) In fact, it can give bad ideas, and just as crucially their actors, more legitimacy - how do you think we end with climate deniers, flat earthers and far right nuts who think everything is the fault of people a shade darker than mayo on panels with actual thinking people comes from? Indeed, what's productive here?
From my view, it's not that we can't disagree civilly that's the problem - it's that we don't have or take accountability for what our ideas mean. We want the cake and no dinner and don't want nanny to scold us for eating it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 15:16:58 GMT
I'm not all that interested in their comments and wouldn't go out of my way to read them. That's pretty much why I don't do Twitter or Facebook...
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 5, 2020 15:43:56 GMT
That a show of support in a belief that equality, diversity and social justice is a political act displays clearly how screwed up our world is. Companies are saying "I see you" to people of color, they are saying we can be better. Again, not politics in my eyes but rather a show of decency. Better to affirm a belief that everyone should be treated equally & fairly by saying something, and putting that support in action, instead of sitting on the sidelines. Big Finish's statement was the worst of both worlds, which is why I think they should have said nothing because nothing would have been better than hiding behind the BBC's rules.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jun 5, 2020 16:37:07 GMT
That a show of support in a belief that equality, diversity and social justice is a political act displays clearly how screwed up our world is. Companies are saying "I see you" to people of color, they are saying we can be better. Again, not politics in my eyes but rather a show of decency. Better to affirm a belief that everyone should be treated equally & fairly by saying something, and putting that support in action, instead of sitting on the sidelines. Big Finish's statement was the worst of both worlds, which is why I think they should have said nothing because nothing would have been better than hiding behind the BBC's rules. Well said.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 5, 2020 23:52:31 GMT
That a show of support in a belief that equality, diversity and social justice is a political act displays clearly how screwed up our world is. Companies are saying "I see you" to people of color, they are saying we can be better. Again, not politics in my eyes but rather a show of decency. Better to affirm a belief that everyone should be treated equally & fairly by saying something, and putting that support in action, instead of sitting on the sidelines. Big Finish's statement was the worst of both worlds, which is why I think they should have said nothing because nothing would have been better than hiding behind the BBC's rules. But afterwards things quite often go back to how they were. I’d much rather get a statement from the people behind the company: you know, actual people putting their names and faces to something rather than a corporate image. For me, that’s worth more.
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Post by escalus5 on Jun 6, 2020 2:04:02 GMT
One of the reasons why I listen to Big Finish's product is escapism, so that I can get a break from everything on the nightly news. Why in the world would I want them to remind me of all the craziness going on?
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 6, 2020 2:10:22 GMT
One of the reasons why I listen to Big Finish's product is escapism, so that I can get a break from everything on the nightly news. Why in the world would I want them to remind me of all the craziness going on? I don’t see how a company statement laying out their support of equal rights, equal justice under the law and a commitment to making their artist pool as diverse as possible brings anyone down. Not like it is going to be on the disc or the download. Why in the world would you want to know? I don’t know, it’s nice knowing that a company you love celebrates and stands with people of all races in a fight for equality?
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Post by escalus5 on Jun 6, 2020 17:23:54 GMT
One of the reasons why I listen to Big Finish's product is escapism, so that I can get a break from everything on the nightly news. Why in the world would I want them to remind me of all the craziness going on? I don’t see how a company statement laying out their support of equal rights, equal justice under the law and a commitment to making their artist pool as diverse as possible brings anyone down. Not like it is going to be on the disc or the download. Why in the world would you want to know? I don’t know, it’s nice knowing that a company you love celebrates and stands with people of all races in a fight for equality? Except that it's been apparent since the company's inception that BF consists of individuals who stand for progressive values and who are sensitive to all of the issues that you've raised. They've gone out of their way on numerous occasions to champion diversity and to bring a diverse pool of talent to their projects. Of course they stand with "people of all races in a fight for equality." If you need that constantly spelled out to you by the company, that's your problem -- not theirs.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 6, 2020 18:21:46 GMT
I don’t see how a company statement laying out their support of equal rights, equal justice under the law and a commitment to making their artist pool as diverse as possible brings anyone down. Not like it is going to be on the disc or the download. Why in the world would you want to know? I don’t know, it’s nice knowing that a company you love celebrates and stands with people of all races in a fight for equality? Except that it's been apparent since the company's inception that BF consists of individuals who stand for progressive values and who are sensitive to all of the issues that you've raised. They've gone out of their way on numerous occasions to champion diversity and to bring a diverse pool of talent to their projects. Of course they stand with "people of all races in a fight for equality." If you need that constantly spelled out to you by the company, that's your problem -- not theirs. I will refrain from responding with the confrontational tone you took since this is just people talking on a audio drama message board. As I have noted a few times now, I have no doubt Nick, David and Big Finish are all on the right side of this but I would politely disagree on the optics and go back to the non-statement they put out. Words matter. Symbols matter. Statements of support matter. Actions matter. And this isn't my problem. Or their problem. Or your problem. This is everyone's problem. We can all do better. I'm also not suggesting they tag on a Black Lives Matter to the You Are Listening To A Big Finish Production intro, so I fail to see how it interferes with your escapism listening.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 18:52:51 GMT
Regardless of whether BF put out a statement of support or not, the important thing is that action speaks louder than words. As a company they have quietly got on with recruiting more people of BAME backgrounds without fuss and purely on the strength of talent. No need for self congratulation, no 'quotas', no 'positive discrimination'. The last thing anyone wishes, in any appointment, is to think they got on because of their colour and not because they were the best person for the job. So it that respect, as in many cases, reticence does less harm.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 19:27:53 GMT
Regardless of whether BF put out a statement of support or not, the important thing is that action speaks louder than words. As a company they have quietly got on with recruiting more people of BAME backgrounds without fuss and purely on the strength of talent. No need for self congratulation, no 'quotas', no 'positive discrimination'. The last thing anyone wishes, in any appointment, is to think they got on because of their colour and not because they were the best person for the job. So it that respect, as in many cases, reticence does less harm. Great post, @daver.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 21:00:37 GMT
... the important thing is that action speaks louder than words. ... and always will do.
Words are just words unless backed up by deeds.
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Post by ollychops on Jun 6, 2020 22:30:11 GMT
I've spoken out against him on Twitter for his comments/views, but this is somewhat decent of Dreyfus, especially since Elliot seems nice and doesn't deserve any sort of abuse in response to that article that Lineham tweeted.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 22:51:53 GMT
I've spoken out against him on Twitter for his comments/views, but this is somewhat decent of Dreyfus, especially since Elliot seems nice and doesn't deserve any sort of abuse in response to that article that Lineham tweeted. I am not sure as to whether I got to the root of Dreyfus's original posts, and I was unaware of what Glinner contributed in his wisdom, but its better to see people treating others with the same respect and consideration online, as they would face to face. I note that Dreyfus has put a conciliatory emphasis on his profile bio, so at least it appears he has reconsidered how careless words in print or online have consequences.
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