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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 12, 2020 23:54:15 GMT
So, would've posted this up before, but well, do I have to say it?
His reasoning is certainly very straight, unlike other parts of online criticism about this, though I can't be alone in wanting to be a little cheap and say, 'Well Andrew, you were the guy whose answer to 'restore mystery to the Doctor' was to make 7 a secret god-reincarnation. Not exactly a huge amount of difference between you and Chris here'. But anyhoo, now that we're a few months out from the finale, I wonder if that's shaped anyone's view on TC?
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Post by Digi on Jun 13, 2020 0:00:33 GMT
I think he's dead wrong that it 'goes too deeply into specifics.' It gave an origin, and then left blank a countless number of lives, organizations, and stories between then and Hartnell.
It'd be like telling an alien who knows nothing of Earth or its history "Oh, well Athens was founded in our ancient history, and now here we are." They'd have no idea how long ago it was, how many civilizations rose and fell between then and now, who was aligned with who, who fought what wars and with who, what other cities have risen and fallen--the canvass is infinite.
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Post by constonks on Jun 13, 2020 0:03:10 GMT
I mean, Cartmel's reveal is a Maybe - the Doctor might be fully the Other, or he might have a tiny hint of the Other's DNA, or he might be unrelated entirely. Lungbarrow, Cold Fusion say "there IS a mystery" and give you a small pile of puzzle pieces without giving you the picture on the box.
Chibnall's reveal does get into more detail - but not much more come to think of it - but while it has a bit of Maybe to it, if it turned out that the whole thing was a lie, it would feel pretty cheap.
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Post by newt5996 on Jun 13, 2020 2:22:51 GMT
I mean, Cartmel's reveal is a Maybe - the Doctor might be fully the Other, or he might have a tiny hint of the Other's DNA, or he might be unrelated entirely. Lungbarrow, Cold Fusion say "there IS a mystery" and give you a small pile of puzzle pieces without giving you the picture on the box. Chibnall's reveal does get into more detail - but not much more come to think of it - but while it has a bit of Maybe to it, if it turned out that the whole thing was a lie, it would feel pretty cheap. As a massive VNA nerd (Lungbarrow is my favorite Doctor Who story of all time), constonks hits the nail right onto the head. There's also the problem of Lungbarrow separating them into literally different people, while Timeless Children has the Timeless Child be the Doctor. It also doesn't help that Timeless Children as an episode literally was only about explaining the Doctor's past without any real plot of a substance, verses Lungbarrow which puts it's murder mystery plot first while the Doctor/Other/Looms stuff is supplemental.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 7:17:32 GMT
He doesn't like
{Spoiler} the sonic screwdriver
either (which I think would have been valid criticism a few years ago but now, not so much ...).
I slightly agree with Cartmel on this. Suggesting mystery is more effective than making a story arc out of it. I'm not sure who it was that said 'Doctor Who is rarely as interesting when the story is about the Doctor,' but I think that's pretty on point too. I really enjoyed Series 12 though, and there were enough stand alone stories to make it hugely entertaining.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jun 13, 2020 8:28:07 GMT
Disagree completely with Cartmel's opinion & the Timeless Child is superior to his awful ideas. Certainly not had my view shaped by his opinion. "depletes the mystery" ? It adds to the mystery!
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Post by theillusiveman on Jun 13, 2020 9:13:16 GMT
The Whole Cartmell Master plan was simply intriguing viewers to the potential mystery box of The Doctor having a past reincarnation cycle / different identity it was never meant to be revealed but left to the interpretation of the viewer to drum up intrigue
Chris Chibnall however......
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Post by tuigirl on Jun 13, 2020 9:26:08 GMT
Well, to be honest, I like neither the Timeless Children reveal nor Cartmel's ideas. I think I like the Doctor best as a renegate Time Lord, who is less powerful (for example less skilled at telepathy and hypnosis than others) and more of a rejected "loser" type character in his society. I am not at all a fan of making him a god like figure. I hated that in the RTD era (including all the quasi religious symbolism) and it is not better now nor is the ideas Cartmel dreamed up. For me personally, the Doctor will never be Space Jesus. I am all for keeping the Doctor a mysterious figure, but please keep Gallifrey and the Time Lords out of it. They were fine in the War Games, but became quite pathetic in the Deadly Assassin. Keep them as shady, rarely seen, near all-powerful and lawfully evil powers in the background. Making them a joke or a mirror on our society was a mistake. However, one great idea came from the Timeless Children- the Time Lords were shown as evil and shifty as I by now came to love them. Doing all these medical experiments and torture on that little child, having him die and die again and abusing his power to make themselves great. That was a great idea and it nearly makes up for the ancient god type thing- because it makes the Doctor an ancient god who was tortured and abused by his adoptive race. Which is actually a very powerful character tool and does indeed explain so much about the background of the show. I also wonder if the next reveal will be that the Doctor is actually one of the Old Gods who has renounced his name and powers because he hated what they had become. Maybe the appearance of the two Old Gods earlier in series 12 was a hint towards that.
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Post by Jeedai on Jun 13, 2020 9:55:16 GMT
Well, to be honest, I like neither the Timeless Children reveal nor Cartmel's ideas. I think I like the Doctor best as a renegate Time Lord, who is less powerful (for example less skilled at telepathy and hypnosis than others) and more of a rejected "loser" type character in his society. I am not at all a fan of making him a god like figure. I hated that in the RTD era (including all the quasi religious symbolism) and it is not better now nor is the ideas Cartmel dreamed up. For me personally, the Doctor will never be Space Jesus. Well, to be honest, I like neither the Timeless Children reveal nor Cartmel's ideas. However, one great idea came from the Timeless Children- the Time Lords were shown as evil and shifty as I by now came to love them. Doing all these medical experiments and torture on that little child, having him die and die again and abusing his power to make themselves great. That was a great idea and it nearly makes up for the ancient god type thing- because it makes the Doctor an ancient god who was tortured and abused by his adoptive race. Which is actually a very powerful character tool and does indeed explain so much about the background of the show. I dont think the Timeless Child reveal renders the Doctor some kind of god-like figure at all. Not to the extent that Davies was going for, anyway. The Doctor instead becomes retroactively rendered into another in a line of unique entities from a much-different primal Universe that Rassilon (among others) screwed over, stepped on, or wiped out along the path towards making Gallifrey the supreme temporal power in the cosmos and hammering reality into that which we recognize as familiar. Less a deity, more a cosmic plaything caught up in the schemes of others.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jun 13, 2020 10:16:54 GMT
Well, to be honest, I like neither the Timeless Children reveal nor Cartmel's ideas. I think I like the Doctor best as a renegate Time Lord, who is less powerful (for example less skilled at telepathy and hypnosis than others) and more of a rejected "loser" type character in his society. I am not at all a fan of making him a god like figure. I hated that in the RTD era (including all the quasi religious symbolism) and it is not better now nor is the ideas Cartmel dreamed up. For me personally, the Doctor will never be Space Jesus. Well, to be honest, I like neither the Timeless Children reveal nor Cartmel's ideas. However, one great idea came from the Timeless Children- the Time Lords were shown as evil and shifty as I by now came to love them. Doing all these medical experiments and torture on that little child, having him die and die again and abusing his power to make themselves great. That was a great idea and it nearly makes up for the ancient god type thing- because it makes the Doctor an ancient god who was tortured and abused by his adoptive race. Which is actually a very powerful character tool and does indeed explain so much about the background of the show. I dont think the Timeless Child reveal renders the Doctor some kind of god-like figure at all. Not to the extent that Davies was going for, anyway. The Doctor instead becomes retroactively rendered into another in a line of unique entities from a much-different primal Universe that Rassilon (among others) screwed over, stepped on, or wiped out along the path towards making Gallifrey the supreme temporal power in the cosmos and hammering reality into that which we recognize as familiar. Less a deity, more a cosmic plaything caught up in the schemes of others. What I like about the Timeless Child idea is that it doesn't make the Doctor some god like figure. The Doctor's past is more important & expansive than we all realised but is still mysterious. They are important to the foundations of Timelord society but not through any deliberate action, which they would be with all this 'The Other' nonsense but simply because of their genes. We don't know where the Doctor comes from, they are a mysterious character again like when the show began.
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Post by theillusiveman on Jun 13, 2020 10:50:32 GMT
Honestly The Doctor being Half Human is better than being The Timeless Child
At least Half Human explains some of the plot-hole lore in the 60s episodes
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 10:53:20 GMT
Well, to be honest, I like neither the Timeless Children reveal nor Cartmel's ideas. I think I like the Doctor best as a renegate Time Lord, who is less powerful (for example less skilled at telepathy and hypnosis than others) and more of a rejected "loser" type character in his society. I am not at all a fan of making him a god like figure. I hated that in the RTD era (including all the quasi religious symbolism) and it is not better now nor is the ideas Cartmel dreamed up. For me personally, the Doctor will never be Space Jesus. I am all for keeping the Doctor a mysterious figure, but please keep Gallifrey and the Time Lords out of it. They were fine in the War Games, but became quite pathetic in the Deadly Assassin. Keep them as shady, rarely seen, near all-powerful and lawfully evil powers in the background. Making them a joke or a mirror on our society was a mistake. I always felt that 'less is more'. Readers or viewers were free to fill in the gaps with their own back story ideas. From the outset, the show was not about the Doctor but the places he went and the things that happened there, to him and his fellow travellers. He wasn't even the focal character initially (we had Barbara and Ian as the heroes). RTD reset things quite well with the 9th Doctor & Rose in 2005 and whilst I liked the Time Lords 2009 reintroduction for the bravura of it all at the time, it's not something I revisit. I have never cared for any show once they get bogged down with things and always switch off long before they finish their run when they do.
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Post by coffeeaddict on Jun 14, 2020 16:30:34 GMT
He is 1000% right that the sonic screwdriver needs to go. Or, at the very least be featured far less. More often than not its use comes off a lazy writing - "Well, I've got no clue who to end this, guess it is time for the sonic - I'll have it order some Starbucks at the same time."
As for the rest - the current direction of the show holds no interest for me, the writing over the last 4 seasons has turned me off, so I won't offer comments on what I haven't watched.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 28, 2020 1:10:56 GMT
Well, to be honest, I like neither the Timeless Children reveal nor Cartmel's ideas. I think I like the Doctor best as a renegate Time Lord, who is less powerful (for example less skilled at telepathy and hypnosis than others) and more of a rejected "loser" type character in his society. I am not at all a fan of making him a god like figure. I hated that in the RTD era (including all the quasi religious symbolism) and it is not better now nor is the ideas Cartmel dreamed up. For me personally, the Doctor will never be Space Jesus. I would actually argue to the contrary: the Timeless Child is Chibnall explicitly rejecting the notion of The Doctor as Space Jesus. Aside from regeneration, the Doctor doesn't actually create anything for the Time Lords - they just allowed them the immortality to explore those boundaries, and as indicated by Tecteun's voyages, that drive was already there. Plus, even when 13 does learn all this, she doesn't embrace it or let it define her - she completes fight back against being the most important person around and instead says she's defined only by herself and no one or nothing else. It's a total oppostie to RTD or Moffat 'Lonely God' idea and even Cartmel's 'Other'.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jun 28, 2020 17:11:10 GMT
Well, to be honest, I like neither the Timeless Children reveal nor Cartmel's ideas. I think I like the Doctor best as a renegate Time Lord, who is less powerful (for example less skilled at telepathy and hypnosis than others) and more of a rejected "loser" type character in his society. I am not at all a fan of making him a god like figure. I hated that in the RTD era (including all the quasi religious symbolism) and it is not better now nor is the ideas Cartmel dreamed up. For me personally, the Doctor will never be Space Jesus. I would actually argue to the contrary: the Timeless Child is Chibnall explicitly rejecting the notion of The Doctor as Space Jesus. Aside from regeneration, the Doctor doesn't actually create anything for the Time Lords - they just allowed them the immortality to explore those boundaries, and as indicated by Tecteun's voyages, that drive was already there. Plus, even when 13 does learn all this, she doesn't embrace it or let it define her - she completes fight back against being the most important person around and instead says she's defined only by herself and no one or nothing else. It's a total oppostie to RTD or Moffat 'Lonely God' idea and even Cartmel's 'Other'. Agree 100%. & if nothing else it means there will be no more clunky way for the character to exceed their regeneration limit. Although I hold fast to the idea that they don't have an infinite number of regenerations & that the Face of Boe is actually the final regeneration of the being called The Doctor.
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Post by tuigirl on Jun 28, 2020 18:02:14 GMT
I would actually argue to the contrary: the Timeless Child is Chibnall explicitly rejecting the notion of The Doctor as Space Jesus. Aside from regeneration, the Doctor doesn't actually create anything for the Time Lords - they just allowed them the immortality to explore those boundaries, and as indicated by Tecteun's voyages, that drive was already there. Plus, even when 13 does learn all this, she doesn't embrace it or let it define her - she completes fight back against being the most important person around and instead says she's defined only by herself and no one or nothing else. It's a total oppostie to RTD or Moffat 'Lonely God' idea and even Cartmel's 'Other'. Agree 100%. & if nothing else it means there will be no more clunky way for the character to exceed their regeneration limit. Although I hold fast to the idea that they don't have an infinite number of regenerations & that the Face of Boe is actually the final regeneration of the being called The Doctor. Now that is an interesting twist.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 18:49:36 GMT
Agree 100%. & if nothing else it means there will be no more clunky way for the character to exceed their regeneration limit. Although I hold fast to the idea that they don't have an infinite number of regenerations & that the Face of Boe is actually the final regeneration of the being called The Doctor. Now that is an interesting twist. Boe....well we can Chuck that idea out the window please🤪
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 5:00:09 GMT
Disagree completely with Cartmel's opinion & the Timeless Child is superior to his awful ideas. Certainly not had my view shaped by his opinion. "depletes the mystery" ? It adds to the mystery! Well I found after watching that I have accepted Jodie as The Doctor,this was maybe just a great way to invigorate some new life into the show.Also what new depths can we sink to and reveal about the Timelords themselves and The Doctor and I hope the producers do NOT feel the need to reveal everything they may have planned but it’s a good way for new writers to come on board and explore and maybe introduce some Timeless Children LOOMS 😉 Cartmel had his plans and I enjoyed the mystery injected into the Doctor during his tenure that the Doctor was something more than a Time Lord. Well am looking forward to 13 and just for the heck of it I will try to revisit 11 not that I was very enthusiastic at all during the episodes I did watch.
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Post by Andymac on Oct 1, 2020 16:49:43 GMT
It's always interesting how people can watch the same thing and see something different. Some see the TC making the Doctor more of a god while others see it turning them back into less than a god. It's also fascinating that generally speaking the former site it as a reason why they hate it and the later why they liked it.
I'm one of the later but I can see why someone who perceived the contrary wouldn't.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Oct 2, 2020 6:50:40 GMT
Depletes the mystery? There's even more mystery now! And we're finally rid of the ****ing Looms. Loved what he engendered for 7 as a "darker" Doctor, but with regeneration...I mean how was that going to work if the show had continued? If AC was still script editor when whoever would have been cast as 8 showed up circa maybe 1991? Even Darker? More Mysterious? No. One and done. the Masterplan, unlike the Timeless Child, seems to have been centered on making 7 more mysterious, not the rest of them, despite the fact they're all the same person. As for his comments on minutiae, well, he'd seen it done heavy handedly with Sixie in Attack of the Cybermen, and frankly however much anyone might dislike Chibnall or Moffat, they have a much lighter touch than that.
Now, give me Raine Creevey! She deserves more stories with 7! Love Ace but c'mon now.
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