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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 20, 2020 0:34:48 GMT
Even with comic book movies and shows ruling cinemas and TV, sales for the original books are in a not-terribly great state. But do you think there is a reason why success doesn't transfer? Is it lack of access? Continuity being too prominent? Maybe a bias against the medium's techniques and presentation?
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Post by Digi on Jun 20, 2020 1:33:49 GMT
Even with comic book movies and shows ruling cinemas and TV, sales for the original books are in a not-terribly great state. But do you think there is a reason why success doesn't transfer? Is it lack of access? Continuity being too prominent? Maybe a bias against the medium's techniques and presentation? All of the above, plus a little more. 1) For whatever reason, the public perception of comics is that they're kiddie fare, or when it skews adult, that it's pervert porn. 2) The transition of comic book sales from every grocery store in America to specialized comic shops was a colossal error in judgement that dramatically shrank public access. So comics became a specialty item, rather than something mom could grab at the cash register while buying groceries so the kid would be quiet on the drive home. 3) An increasing reliance on continuity but especially on ridiculously complicated crossover events (I'm looking at you, Marvel) is a huge deterrent even to casual fans. 4) The storytelling style that the major publishers have settled into is not compatible with new or casual fans. Both DC and Marvel have set into a routine of 5 or 6 issue long story arcs in order to accommodate sales of trade paperbacks later on. Except, in day-to-day terms, that means they're expecting people to follow that one single story (and heaven forbid they're following more than one range) for five or six months at a time and remember what they read 3, 4, 5 months ago. 5) Price. Holy flipping hell comics are expensive these days, both in absolute terms and in terms of value per page. The average comic book these days is only 20 pages long, and the price is $3.50 USD (or $4.50 here in Canada) per issue. That's expensive for what you get. And if you follow more than one range, that multiplies rapidly. And some comics are published twice a month, making it even more expensive. And I say all of this as a fan of comics. It's a deeply problematic industry.
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Post by Jeedai on Jun 20, 2020 2:46:55 GMT
All of the above, plus a little more. 1) For whatever reason, the public perception of comics is that they're kiddie fare, or when it skews adult, that it's pervert porn. 2) The transition of comic book sales from every grocery store in America to specialized comic shops was a colossal error in judgement that dramatically shrank public access. So comics became a specialty item, rather than something mom could grab at the cash register while buying groceries so the kid would be quiet on the drive home. 3) An increasing reliance on continuity but especially on ridiculously complicated crossover events (I'm looking at you, Marvel) is a huge deterrent even to casual fans. 4) The storytelling style that the major publishers have settled into is not compatible with new or casual fans. Both DC and Marvel have set into a routine of 5 or 6 issue long story arcs in order to accommodate sales of trade paperbacks later on. Except, in day-to-day terms, that means they're expecting people to follow that one single story (and heaven forbid they're following more than one range) for five or six months at a time and remember what they read 3, 4, 5 months ago. 5) Price. Holy flipping hell comics are expensive these days, both in absolute terms and in terms of value per page. The average comic book these days is only 20 pages long, and the price is $3.50 USD (or $4.50 here in Canada) per issue. That's expensive for what you get. And if you follow more than one range, that multiplies rapidly. And some comics are published twice a month, making it even more expensive. And I say all of this as a fan of comics. It's a deeply problematic industry. And that's just on the production end. Recent years have seen a number of fumbles on the management/storyrunning end that have come from outright petty one-upsmanship and bizarre ego trips on the part of the people at the top. One More Day retconned away all of Peter Parker's marriage to Mary Jane Watson, to enormous fan backlash, because the guy in charge of Marvel Comics at the time thought Spider-Man should never be happy. Nothing the writer on the title had to say about that mattered. Dan DiDio's tenure over DC (especially the New 52 era) was marked by a personal vendetta against various legacy heroes and sidekicks (basically any character created after the Silver Age, regardless of their popularity or sales numbers). Kicking various characters to the curb that didn't fit into his personal pack of favorites. At the height of the Fox/ Disney kerfuffle over film rights, Marvel comics was made kill off or otherwise remove or depower Mutants and the Fantasitc 4 to just to reduce the number of X-Men and Fantastic Four comic tiles in order to deny Fox any extra hype for their movie projects. A lesser example would be fiddling around with Squirrel Girl's background to pretend that she was never a Mutant. So carrying on from Digi 's point about following umpteen comics to follow a single story, add to that slogging through all that just to see the tale end with the death or diminished of one of your favorite characters. Another example of a movie having a blow back effect on comics sales: Ike Perlmutter. Before Kevin Feige assumed creative control of the entire MCU, Perlmutter ran the movies and had his fingers on the scales of which film projects would be added to the series. He blocked any efforts at a Black Panther movie or any movie headlined by a female super, and also diminished Black Widow's presence on or in Avengers movie merchandise, all from the belief that minority and female characters wouldn't push as much product. Thus denying those characters spotlights that could have driven new readers to their comic titles for YEARS. But the problems are not all in-house. Comic books are suffering the same plague of toxic fandom that everything else is these days. Top of my head, I'm thinking of the vocal minority that threw fits over Marvel adding more women and people of color to their headliner series (Jane Foster Thor, Ironheart, etc). In our social media dominated pop culture landscape, the controversy they generate over every little precious thing does the job of driving some people away.
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Post by polly on Jun 20, 2020 4:53:49 GMT
I can only speak for myself, but until they became available digitally for cheap, I simply didn't think they were good value for money most of the time. Paying 4-5 bucks for what amounts to a pamphlet minus ads is not very appealing. Trades and omnibuses are a little better, but even then I didn't feel particularly eager to spend $20 on something I can finish in under two hours. I'd much rather pick up a nice hardback novel for that kind of money.
At least with Comixology, paying about $1 per issue is much more palatable, and thanks to them I have begun reading comics again.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jun 20, 2020 6:16:56 GMT
Even with comic book movies and shows ruling cinemas and TV, sales for the original books are in a not-terribly great state. But do you think there is a reason why success doesn't transfer? Is it lack of access? Continuity being too prominent? Maybe a bias against the medium's techniques and presentation? All of the above, plus a little more. 1) For whatever reason, the public perception of comics is that they're kiddie fare, or when it skews adult, that it's pervert porn. 2) The transition of comic book sales from every grocery store in America to specialized comic shops was a colossal error in judgement that dramatically shrank public access. So comics became a specialty item, rather than something mom could grab at the cash register while buying groceries so the kid would be quiet on the drive home. 3) An increasing reliance on continuity but especially on ridiculously complicated crossover events (I'm looking at you, Marvel) is a huge deterrent even to casual fans. 4) The storytelling style that the major publishers have settled into is not compatible with new or casual fans. Both DC and Marvel have set into a routine of 5 or 6 issue long story arcs in order to accommodate sales of trade paperbacks later on. Except, in day-to-day terms, that means they're expecting people to follow that one single story (and heaven forbid they're following more than one range) for five or six months at a time and remember what they read 3, 4, 5 months ago. 5) Price. Holy flipping hell comics are expensive these days, both in absolute terms and in terms of value per page. The average comic book these days is only 20 pages long, and the price is $3.50 USD (or $4.50 here in Canada) per issue. That's expensive for what you get. And if you follow more than one range, that multiplies rapidly. And some comics are published twice a month, making it even more expensive. And I say all of this as a fan of comics. It's a deeply problematic industry. Or about AUST$7. comics was 1 of the first items to cop the full GST back in July 1 2000. Comics literally doubled in price overnight back then.. And as a comics reader/collector since the early 80's.. OUCH
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Post by pazzer on Jun 20, 2020 11:15:34 GMT
Keep meaning to get into comics but am put off by how complicated it all seems. As can't just pick up the latest issue due to it all been so continuity heavy. Even looking at following one character there still seems to be crossover events. So need to buy issue about another character to get whole story.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jun 20, 2020 12:05:27 GMT
1) Because, in the English-speaking world, comics are seen as being juvenile, produced for children, even when that's not been the case for something like thirty years. When Tim Burton's "Batman" came out in the cinemas, a lot of parents took their kids and came out furious that it wasn't anything like the 1960s tv series - a lot of people haven't learned this lesson. I can't remember *why* this is the case, I have a vague memory reading that there were efforts in the UK and US over stopping certain kinds of material being published, but in France this never happened so comics are read more widely).
2) Because, in the English-speaking world, comics are (paradoxically) read mainly by thirty-something and early-middle-aged men. Not a cool demographic.
3) Because Marvel UK went bust after over-reaching itself by direct selling into the US. That killed the domestic UK comics market. Back in the 1980s, you could spend your pocket money (and get change back, in fact) on a comic with two comic strips (one of which would more likely than not be an original and not a US reprint), a Lew Stringer humour strip, a text story, a letters page, a readers' art page, and some decent adverts. Nowadays - and I recommend tracking down the relevant article on the downthetubes website - UK comics are more expensive and contain much less original material. The ones I've seen resemble World Distributors DW annuals - all filler.
4) Because supermarkets play silly buggers (again, see downthetubes, but basically the supermarkets insist on something special to get a place on their shelves so the publishers still a crappy plastic toy on the cover, then the supermarkets complain the comics don't sit on the shelves properly)
5) Because (no3 notwithstanding) US comics are bloody expensive, and if you've been following the DC/Diamond debacle you'll know that the price of comics from all US publishers is going to go through the roof everywhere outside America, even Canada's not going to be immune.
6) Because superheroes only count if they're in the movies. When "Smallville" was first announced as coming to tv, one of the objections raised was that it couldn't possibly be set in the present day, it must be set in the 1970s; presumably on the basis that Superman is Christopher Reeve and Christopher Reeve is Superman and nothing else counts.
7) Because people are dumb. We can't even get DW fans to listen to FREE Big Finish - not just downloads, even on the radio - so why does any body expect them to lash out money? IF iT i noT ONB tV tHeN iT iS not cAnNoN.
8) Continuity has been suggested above, but I think that's only an obstacle to specific comics or characters, not comics as a whole.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 20, 2020 13:23:08 GMT
All of the above, plus a little more. 1) For whatever reason, the public perception of comics is that they're kiddie fare, or when it skews adult, that it's pervert porn. 2) The transition of comic book sales from every grocery store in America to specialized comic shops was a colossal error in judgement that dramatically shrank public access. So comics became a specialty item, rather than something mom could grab at the cash register while buying groceries so the kid would be quiet on the drive home. 3) An increasing reliance on continuity but especially on ridiculously complicated crossover events (I'm looking at you, Marvel) is a huge deterrent even to casual fans. 4) The storytelling style that the major publishers have settled into is not compatible with new or casual fans. Both DC and Marvel have set into a routine of 5 or 6 issue long story arcs in order to accommodate sales of trade paperbacks later on. Except, in day-to-day terms, that means they're expecting people to follow that one single story (and heaven forbid they're following more than one range) for five or six months at a time and remember what they read 3, 4, 5 months ago. 5) Price. Holy flipping hell comics are expensive these days, both in absolute terms and in terms of value per page. The average comic book these days is only 20 pages long, and the price is $3.50 USD (or $4.50 here in Canada) per issue. That's expensive for what you get. And if you follow more than one range, that multiplies rapidly. And some comics are published twice a month, making it even more expensive. And I say all of this as a fan of comics. It's a deeply problematic industry. Another example of a movie having a blow back effect on comics sales: Ike Perlmutter. Before Kevin Feige assumed creative control of the entire MCU, Perlmutter ran the movies and had his fingers on the scales of which film projects would be added to the series. He blocked any efforts at a Black Panther movie or any movie headlined by a female super, and also diminished Black Widow's presence on or in Avengers movie merchandise, all from the belief that minority and female characters wouldn't push as much product. Thus denying those characters spotlights that could have driven new readers to their comic titles for YEARS. But the problems are not all in-house. Comic books are suffering the same plague of toxic fandom that everything else is these days. Top of my head, I'm thinking of the vocal minority that threw fits over Marvel adding more women and people of color to their headliner series (Jane Foster Thor, Ironheart, etc). In our social media dominated pop culture landscape, the controversy they generate over every little precious thing does the job of driving some people away. The irony there being the Marvel diversification was happening while Ike was in charge, so the complainers basically had the head honcho on their side and didn't need to try and create boogeymen, since Kamala Khan or Miles Morales getting a movie, at that time, was so unlikely.
Besides, sales had been tanking for a long time before the SJWs 'came', no matter how much revisionist denialism there is. The schism has only deepened what was there - besides, it ignores that given how often series are rebooted, clearly neither Disney nor Warners want to actively waste money on stuff that doesn't sell, meaning oft-beaten sticks like Ms Marvel or Captain Marvel clearly did enough, commercially, to justify running. Capitalism isn't strictly right-wing: the big push for more diverse is, while there are altruistic people trying to give voices to the ignored, ultimately about widening your pool of potential customers. Even if, as these guys want to argue, Ms Marvel is too OP or there isn't enough peril or danger in her books, or that it's too goofy and slice-of-life to be an 'American superhero book', clearly the MM fanbase doesn't see that as an issue, and is still happy to pay for that content.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jun 20, 2020 14:02:32 GMT
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Post by Digi on Jun 20, 2020 14:06:59 GMT
Keep meaning to get into comics but am put off by how complicated it all seems. As can't just pick up the latest issue due to it all been so continuity heavy. Even looking at following one character there still seems to be crossover events. So need to buy issue about another character to get whole story. Slightly off-topic, but there are probably enough comic readers here at DU to suggest friendly 'jumping on' points for various characters. Except Spider-Man. There is no convenient place to jump into Spider-Man. I know, because I have been completely unable to start reading his stories
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jun 20, 2020 14:19:36 GMT
Keep meaning to get into comics but am put off by how complicated it all seems. As can't just pick up the latest issue due to it all been so continuity heavy. Even looking at following one character there still seems to be crossover events. So need to buy issue about another character to get whole story. I'd also suggest looking beyond Marvel & DC, its not all about the familiar superheroes. Image comics do some good stuff, as do Boom Studios.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 20, 2020 15:16:26 GMT
1. It started the whole interconnected continuity thing its tricky to read a strand/series without following another one. At the same time its all about cost and the readers interest.
2. I'd echo Mills comments should comics cater to all tastes and can they? But also it does seem to be one of last areas of level discussion in Media of "All forms of representation positive and negative have their place in this medium".
Regards
mark687
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Post by elkawho on Jun 20, 2020 19:50:47 GMT
I used to be a huge comics reader. I have schlepped 17 long boxes of comics from the 80s an d90s with me from Boston to New Jersey and from one house to another. I stopped when my oldest was born because I no longer had the disposable income or time to spend on them. I have wanted to get back into them, but the sheer cost of really getting into some titles and the amount of story that has gone on for the last 19 years is daunting. I do read a few every so often these days, but my regular buying and collecting is way behind me.
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Post by Jeedai on Jun 20, 2020 21:40:27 GMT
Besides, sales had been tanking for a long time before the SJWs 'came', no matter how much revisionist denialism there is. The schism has only deepened what was there - besides, it ignores that given how often series are rebooted, clearly neither Disney nor Warners want to actively waste money on stuff that doesn't sell, meaning oft-beaten sticks like Ms Marvel or Captain Marvel clearly did enough, commercially, to justify running. Capitalism isn't strictly right-wing: the big push for more diverse is, while there are altruistic people trying to give voices to the ignored, ultimately about widening your pool of potential customers. Even if, as these guys want to argue, Ms Marvel is too OP or there isn't enough peril or danger in her books, or that it's too goofy and slice-of-life to be an 'American superhero book', clearly the MM fanbase doesn't see that as an issue, and is still happy to pay for that content. Mz Marvel is not in the same ballpark as what I was referring to. She's an example of a headliner hero (in that case Captain Marvel) getting more characters added to their 'family' of themed associates and partners. Similar to Batman rounding up more Robins and Batgirls over time. And when Miles Morales was acting as Spider-Man's replacement, he was doing so in an explicitly alternate universe (Ultimate Marvel), with the 'real' Spider-Man untouched and carrying on in the regular comics line. If a fan wanted to keep on reading Peter Parker's story, they were freely able to do so. Ditto Spider-Gwen. I was referring to the more recent presentations of characters and storylines where leading hero themselves, in this case the Earth-616 Thor and Iron Man, are replaced by someone else. I dont recall Doctor Octopus taking over the mantle of Spider-Man (as the Superior Spider-Man) being met with the kind of vitriol that was directed at those two recasts. But swap out the mainline Thor for a lady and Tony Stark for a POC and suddenly the internet trolls popped up to moan about their childhoods being taken away or chanting "Go Woke Go Broke." The controversies and ugliness they stir up dont just leave someone's head when they walk into a comics shop. They influence whether a person wants to spend $3.50/$4.50 a pop to get sucked further into yet another ideological clusterf*ck they'll never hear the end of on Facebook and Twitter and YouTube, or just pick up something else.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,661
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 21, 2020 0:39:14 GMT
It’s interesting that Mr Mills talks about comics not being for kids any more when it was 2000AD that spearheaded that approach of writing above the age of the audience which eventually led to kids not reading them. Which - based on over 20 years of anecdotal observations - kids don’t do these days. Computer games have taken over as the dominant art form for what used to be the comic audience. Comics are, as noted by others here, ridiculously expensive and hard to follow. When I buy them these days, which isn’t often, it’s always a limited series, which I will then follow up with a trade collection. I do agree with Mills when he says the superhero POV has changed, but I’d argue also that the subtext has become the text with most stories in that the stories used to be about heroes defeating the villains with their inner life as a commentary: however, now the situation is often reversed. Comics are becoming a literary form rather than a genre
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 21, 2020 0:46:32 GMT
I think there's a discussion to be had there on whether that's necessarily a bad thing - sure, the tradition and accesibility that Mills is discussing gets lost, but then again, without the boundaries of a strict 'genre' and its attendant tropes, a comic can really be whatever the creator wants.
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
Likes: 5,062
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Post by ljwilson on Jun 23, 2020 18:19:47 GMT
Keep meaning to get into comics but am put off by how complicated it all seems. As can't just pick up the latest issue due to it all been so continuity heavy. Even looking at following one character there still seems to be crossover events. So need to buy issue about another character to get whole story. I'd definitely recommend looking beyond all the super hero stuff, and go for some of the trade paperbacks (collected anthologies or series), which you can pick up for £5 to £10 (2nd hand or new). Here are a few recommendations: Locke and Key: Welcome to Lovecraft Goodbye Krool World East of West Sanctum The Watchmen The Last American
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Post by elkawho on Jun 23, 2020 21:01:15 GMT
Keep meaning to get into comics but am put off by how complicated it all seems. As can't just pick up the latest issue due to it all been so continuity heavy. Even looking at following one character there still seems to be crossover events. So need to buy issue about another character to get whole story. I'd definitely recommend looking beyond all the super hero stuff, and go for some of the trade paperbacks (collected anthologies or series), which you can pick up for £5 to £10 (2nd hand or new). Here are a few recommendations: Locke and Key: Welcome to Lovecraft Goodbye Krool World East of West Sanctum The Watchmen The Last American After watching the show I'm tempted to read Locke and Key.
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
Likes: 5,062
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Post by ljwilson on Jun 24, 2020 15:16:39 GMT
I'd definitely recommend looking beyond all the super hero stuff, and go for some of the trade paperbacks (collected anthologies or series), which you can pick up for £5 to £10 (2nd hand or new). Here are a few recommendations: Locke and Key: Welcome to Lovecraft Goodbye Krool World East of West Sanctum The Watchmen The Last American After watching the show I'm tempted to read Locke and Key. Best set of comics I've ever read!
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Post by kurumais on Jun 26, 2020 17:09:24 GMT
honestly i think it comes down to price point. you get 22 pages for 3 or 4 dollars here in the states. that a lot of money for a 10 minute read.
when i was akid i could earn my comic book money. how many kids can do thast now. how many parents want to pay those prices. plus if you like
superheroes you cant watch the cartoons, play the video game, watch the live action tv show, and watch the block buster movies. also there are a lot
of prose novels about superheroes now. not just big name imports from the comics but wholly original character and worlds. why hunt down a comic
store and spend a lot to get little?
i am a huge comic fan. that is my number one fandom. i want to give up floppies and just trade wait. you get great prices online for trades.
i was just about to give up floppies completely when a friend of a friend opened up a store. and to quote al pacino "just when i thought i was out
they pull me back in!" but i would rather trade wait and get cheap trades, OHCs, epic collections, and maybe an omnibus.
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