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Post by Star Platinum on Jun 27, 2020 4:05:46 GMT
Price is a huge factor for me. I avoid floppies simply because of the price of each individual one and the fact that I can usually pick up the trade a year later.
Pricing wise the hardback trades really aren’t much better. Grabbing vol 1 of Grant Morrison’s Green Lantern put me out $33 plus tax. Which, is fair compared to the price of floppies mentioned earlier in the thread, but it’s still pricy.
Grabbing one Azzarello’s Wonder Woman paperback trades ( an excellent run of stories btw!) put me out $18 plus tax. A more palatable price tag, but that was roughly two years after they were published as floppies, so the story has long since moved on since then.
Those are just regular storylines. When you look at omnibus editions or events, and all the tie ins for those, they can quickly become difficult to continue with!
Granted, there are tricks you can use to keep prices down. I tend to buy a bunch when comic stores or conventions do US cover price sales and the like.
Comics are a very expensive hobby, I’d argue one of the m more expensive ones from the design. At this point, I’m happy to experience the medium through TV, movies and games, while picking up the odd trade from an author I enjoy.
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Post by kurumais on Jun 27, 2020 20:41:52 GMT
i just want to add something. i have had this discussion in real life and online and heard others have it as well. one thing that i think everyone
assumes is " if the normies just knew what comics were really like. they would buy them." i am pretty convinced the normies do know and they
aren't interested.
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Post by Digi on Jun 28, 2020 0:34:37 GMT
I am so amused to see people calling individual issues "floppies" in this thread. I'd never heard that before, and I love it
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Post by Ela on Jun 28, 2020 3:42:34 GMT
I used to buy a lot of comics as a kid. Then I stopped for a long time. Now, when I see the comics displays at con, there's so much stuff out there that I have no idea where to start. I did buy some comics in the last year or so (for the first time in a long time) through the mail because I decided I wanted particular comics.
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Post by agentten on Jun 28, 2020 4:27:34 GMT
It's true it can be complicated to follow certain comic stories and characters, though I'd say the continuity is no more complicated to keep track of than Doctor Who. To me, the secret is to just find good stories, characters you like, writers/artists you like, and follow them, enjoying the stories and not fussing too much about continuity. Continuity is always secondary to the quality of the story. Comic books, being modern myth, are almost like a game of telephone. Each person who writes the book interprets what the previous writers did and then puts their own spin on it. I have no problem checking out of a title for a while if I don't like the current take on the character, and then checking back in when things change up. When friends of mine ask me how to get into reading comics I always just say pick something that looks interesting and then follow your bliss from there. I personally tend to avoid a lot of the big crossover events, usually because I'm not interested in most of the things I'd have to read to keep up with it, though a really well done event with a nice epic scope can be very exciting to read.
There are some times that comic book companies have sabotaged themselves in various ways, such as Marvel's endless issue #1 reboots and their deliberate rotation of deaths and resurrections, which appear to be entirely motivated by sales figures, but which get an eye roll from me and a cessation of purchasing that title until it returns to normal. Those tactics may result in short term sales and media attention, but I think they do more damage in the long run. There have been a few times that I've been driven away from a title never to return. The infamous One More Day event, which I'd politely call a miscalculated creative fumble, made me feel that I needed to vote with my wallet and avoid Spider-man titles, which I continue to do to this day.
All in all, there's a lot of joy to be found in reading comics, but like anything that's been around for a long enough time, eventually there's so much of it and the investment in time, money, and mental energy to pursue such a hobby may make some people balk, but those of us who've wiled away happy Saturday afternoons with a stack of comics are unlikely to regret it.
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Post by tuigirl on Jun 28, 2020 11:00:18 GMT
i just want to add something. i have had this discussion in real life and online and heard others have it as well. one thing that i think everyone assumes is " if the normies just knew what comics were really like. they would buy them." i am pretty convinced the normies do know and they aren't interested. Hmm.
Depends.
I am not sure "normies" really make an effort to look into it. And if they ever give themselves a chance to learn to appreciate comics. I am not sure if to call it "disinterest" or more "ignorance" and "indifference".
I would not call myself a "normie" (not by a long shot and my family and friends would laugh in my face if I did). But I have grown up with the firm (indoctrinated) belief that comics were just for kids and there were only juvenile stories told. In my family, we only ever had comics like Tintin and Asterix, and my parents refused to ever buy us any other comics. I remember from my childhood that one of my uncles who died at a young age was an avid comic fan. He had a HUGE collection. When he died, my dad, his brother, just gave the comics away. We kids were not allowed to have them (I assume there was some adult and violent stuff in there, as well as the "useless superhero stuff"). What my dad could not give away, he burned. I am sure today these things might have been worth a fortune.
Having grown up with this attitude, I always looked down on comics. Only when I studied, I actually started to go into comic book stores and looked at what they had there and bought some stuff. I started out with Star Trek (because I am a Trekkie) and slowly branched out. I learned that comics are indeed a work of art and some of them are truly amazing. Yes, there are still comics which are juvenile and violent trash, but they are indeed an art-form in themselves.
Certainly nothing to look down upon.
I still retain some of the inbred apprehension, however, and for a long time I for example refused to look into the Who comics. I thought they were just a bunch of juvenile Kiddie- stories. Luckily, the good people on this forum convinced me to give them a try. This was certainly not the last time I was wrong with my assumptions. Some of the Who comics are truly amazing with some fantastic original characters.
As a more normie perspective- A couple of years ago, my sister was dragged by a friend of hers (who is a famous German cos-player and lives in our village and attends every European convention in existence) to a comic festival organized by the local comic book store. My sister said she felt like visiting another planet and she would never had thought there were so many "crazy people" living in our region. Plus, the whole thing reminded her of an episode of "the Big Bang Theory" with all the archetypical characters present. I have also tried introducing comics to my sister and to my niece and nephew, but I predict that might not be entirely successful.
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Post by fingersmash on Jun 28, 2020 13:10:15 GMT
The same reason people large scale don't watch animated film/tv shows. A perception that they are for children and children only. It's not an art form for people at large (disregarding the fact that comics are one of the few American created artforms). It's just there for them. Despite the pop culture relevance of the creations of comics, that is in spite of their origin rather than because of it. Shows like The Big Bang Theory showing these nerds as manchildren don't help the perception.
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Post by Ela on Jun 28, 2020 16:45:19 GMT
It's true it can be complicated to follow certain comic stories and characters, though I'd say the continuity is no more complicated to keep track of than Doctor Who. To me, the secret is to just find good stories, characters you like, writers/artists you like, and follow them, enjoying the stories and not fussing too much about continuity. Continuity is always secondary to the quality of the story. Comic books, being modern myth, are almost like a game of telephone. Each person who writes the book interprets what the previous writers did and then puts their own spin on it. I have no problem checking out of a title for a while if I don't like the current take on the character, and then checking back in when things change up. When friends of mine ask me how to get into reading comics I always just say pick something that looks interesting and then follow your bliss from there. I personally tend to avoid a lot of the big crossover events, usually because I'm not interested in most of the things I'd have to read to keep up with it, though a really well done event with a nice epic scope can be very exciting to read. There are some times that comic book companies have sabotaged themselves in various ways, such as Marvel's endless issue #1 reboots and their deliberate rotation of deaths and resurrections, which appear to be entirely motivated by sales figures, but which get an eye roll from me and a cessation of purchasing that title until it returns to normal. Those tactics may result in short term sales and media attention, but I think they do more damage in the long run. There have been a few times that I've been driven away from a title never to return. The infamous One More Day event, which I'd politely call a miscalculated creative fumble, made me feel that I needed to vote with my wallet and avoid Spider-man titles, which I continue to do to this day. All in all, there's a lot of joy to be found in reading comics, but like anything that's been around for a long enough time, eventually there's so much of it and the investment in time, money, and mental energy to pursue such a hobby may make some people balk, but those of us who've wiled away happy Saturday afternoons with a stack of comics are unlikely to regret it. My problem is figuring out where to start after being away from it for so many years. I used to be a regular consumer of Superman (and related "super" stories), Batman, and Spiderman. But the stories have expanded and been revised so much (in terms of backstory) that it's a bit of a mystery what to buy or read. So I just don't. I look at them (also on Comixology) and in the end don't buy.
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Post by project37 on Jun 28, 2020 23:58:10 GMT
Even with comic book movies and shows ruling cinemas and TV, sales for the original books are in a not-terribly great state. But do you think there is a reason why success doesn't transfer? Is it lack of access? Continuity being too prominent? Maybe a bias against the medium's techniques and presentation? All of the above, plus a little more. 1) For whatever reason, the public perception of comics is that they're kiddie fare, or when it skews adult, that it's pervert porn. 2) The transition of comic book sales from every grocery store in America to specialized comic shops was a colossal error in judgement that dramatically shrank public access. So comics became a specialty item, rather than something mom could grab at the cash register while buying groceries so the kid would be quiet on the drive home. 3) An increasing reliance on continuity but especially on ridiculously complicated crossover events (I'm looking at you, Marvel) is a huge deterrent even to casual fans. 4) The storytelling style that the major publishers have settled into is not compatible with new or casual fans. Both DC and Marvel have set into a routine of 5 or 6 issue long story arcs in order to accommodate sales of trade paperbacks later on. Except, in day-to-day terms, that means they're expecting people to follow that one single story (and heaven forbid they're following more than one range) for five or six months at a time and remember what they read 3, 4, 5 months ago. 5) Price. Holy flipping hell comics are expensive these days, both in absolute terms and in terms of value per page. The average comic book these days is only 20 pages long, and the price is $3.50 USD (or $4.50 here in Canada) per issue. That's expensive for what you get. And if you follow more than one range, that multiplies rapidly. And some comics are published twice a month, making it even more expensive. And I say all of this as a fan of comics. It's a deeply problematic industry.
This is a perfect summation of the issues for me, especially 2 and 5. I'm old (mid-40s) and remember when comics were a fantastic impulse buy. You could take a chance and jump in on random titles simply because the cover caught your eye. And at 75 cents to $1, my parents had no problem letting me pick a few at the end of the grocery store trip.
Now you have to seek them out at specialty shops and when you do, where are you supposed to begin? And then the price (!), all for some entertainment that's over within a few minutes. You could buy three issues of an incomplete story (22 pages each) or a month of Netflix. It's not a hard decision and turns away many new potential readers.
There's no incentive for me to read issue by issue. I'd rather wait for the collected trades of a somewhat complete story arc. There's no incentive for me to purchase at that price, either. I read via my library (including digital books at Hoopla) and enjoy Marvel Unlimited and Comixology sales.
I also get hopelessly bored with mainstream superhero books and am more interested in the weirder off-beat books. They rarely last long, though. They don't sell well, get canceled and then lost in the deluge. Some recommendations: Charles Soule did a fun book about She-Hulk that focused on her law career (with Soule drawing on his own experience as an attorney), Kelly Thompson had an entertaining run on Hawkeye with Kate Bishop (instead of Clint Barton) as the lead, Nick Spencer's Superior Foes of Spider-Man remains one of my all-time favorites (it's a comedy about a group of B- and C-list bad guys trying to be taken seriously), Jeff Lemire's Moon Knight was electric.
Oh, and it lasted longer than the others I'd mentioned, Dan Slott's shamelessly Doctor Who-inspired Silver Surfer is a must-read for anyone and everyone here.
As with Big Finish, I know why things have to be priced as they are. I enjoy them, but just can't afford them so unless it's irresistibly special, I'll just wait for a sale, a library access option, or skip it entirely and read what others think on forums like this one. Comics will have their collectors, but the industry seems content to let them tick away at that level. It doesn't seem to be about bringing in new readers, but rather using them as a lab to generate storytelling ideas to be adapted for Netflix/Amazon/movie theaters.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jun 29, 2020 0:57:11 GMT
We kids were not allowed to have them (I assume there was some adult and violent stuff in there, as well as the "useless superhero stuff"). What my dad could not give away, he burned. I am sure today these things might have been worth a fortune. Well I guess I'm at least still enough of a comics nerd that I still groan when I hear stories like this. I used to get in arguments over a quarter with my dad who used to talk about all the comics they had hoisted off of ships in the war. They had given the things away by the tons and he just couldn't seem to understand the idea of kids paying 25 cents for one because no one was giving them away to us by the ton, lol. I had to earn the money for the first New X-Men one cent at a time by picking potato bugs off the potato plants in the garden. If dad only knew what that would sell for he'd have given me the money to buy 20 copies, lol. Being disabled and having a troubled family though, I ended up selling my whole collection for dirt soon enough, just to eat. I don't know why they're hard to warm to these days. Every now and then I catch a glimpse of something by a particularly good artist and it's so compelling, they are literally works of art, every panel, like Neal Adams was "back in the day". I see that and think I should follow it, just like Big Finish - what if someone threw a party like that and no one showed up for it? I know continuity can seem like an issue, I don't know if I could ever catch up to 30 years of Spider-Man, but I think availability of some things these days may be such that you can go back and start at the beginning if you want to, and if you have issues with sensibilities (raises hand), it's always nice to get back to the simple old-fashioned stories. Something for everyone. I don't know if specialty shops took some of the fun out of it? One the one hand they made sure you didn't miss anything, but you'd just go in and pick this this this and that, whereas I have so many fond memories of going miles on my bicycle to six different stores trying to find all the titles for the month, trudging through snow in hopes that the latest issue of X-Men by Claremont and Byrne had come in on time.
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Post by Digi on Jun 29, 2020 2:41:11 GMT
It's true it can be complicated to follow certain comic stories and characters, though I'd say the continuity is no more complicated to keep track of than Doctor Who. To me, the secret is to just find good stories, characters you like, writers/artists you like, and follow them, enjoying the stories and not fussing too much about continuity. Continuity is always secondary to the quality of the story. Comic books, being modern myth, are almost like a game of telephone. Each person who writes the book interprets what the previous writers did and then puts their own spin on it. I have no problem checking out of a title for a while if I don't like the current take on the character, and then checking back in when things change up. When friends of mine ask me how to get into reading comics I always just say pick something that looks interesting and then follow your bliss from there. I personally tend to avoid a lot of the big crossover events, usually because I'm not interested in most of the things I'd have to read to keep up with it, though a really well done event with a nice epic scope can be very exciting to read. There are some times that comic book companies have sabotaged themselves in various ways, such as Marvel's endless issue #1 reboots and their deliberate rotation of deaths and resurrections, which appear to be entirely motivated by sales figures, but which get an eye roll from me and a cessation of purchasing that title until it returns to normal. Those tactics may result in short term sales and media attention, but I think they do more damage in the long run. There have been a few times that I've been driven away from a title never to return. The infamous One More Day event, which I'd politely call a miscalculated creative fumble, made me feel that I needed to vote with my wallet and avoid Spider-man titles, which I continue to do to this day. All in all, there's a lot of joy to be found in reading comics, but like anything that's been around for a long enough time, eventually there's so much of it and the investment in time, money, and mental energy to pursue such a hobby may make some people balk, but those of us who've wiled away happy Saturday afternoons with a stack of comics are unlikely to regret it. My problem is figuring out where to start after being away from it for so many years. I used to be a regular consumer of Superman (and related "super" stories), Batman, and Spiderman. But the stories have expanded and been revised so much (in terms of backstory) that it's a bit of a mystery what to buy or read. So I just don't. I look at them (also on Comixology) and in the end don't buy. As a rule (at least with Batman, because that's my go-to), the start of a new writer's tenure is usually a good spot. The New 52 reboot in 2011 changed Batman's early years, and for my money what Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo did with their 50-odd issues (the only writer/artist team to stay on their title for the entire run of the New 52) was just terrific end to end. That's the main "Batman" title that ran from 2011-16, issues #1-51. When DC did their "Rebirth" reboot in 2016, they started again at #1 but Tom King took over as writer. He didn't really make any major continuity changes and made the run all his own. His time as writer could be a bit trying on an arc-to-arc basis IMO. For me at least, he seesawed back and forth between "oh my god this is terrible" and "holy smokes this is good" without much in between. His run started in 2016 at #1 and ran till late 2019 at #85 when he was taken off writing duty for reasons that are still a bit murky. He wasn't completely thrown aside though, DC offered him a 12-issue miniseries (Batman/Catwoman) to conclude the storylines he was hoping to continue. That hasn't been published yet -- it was supposed to be earlier this year, but the artist (Clay Mann) needed extra time because he was working on another comic and King decided that Mann's art was worth the wait. That, plus comics being delayed for the last few months mean it just hasn't happened yet. Post-#85, the main Batman line was taken over by James Tynion IV, a protege of Scott Snyder's who did a few guest co-writing spots during Snyder's run and who wrote the Rebirth run of Detective Comics from 2016-18. Tynion has set about doing his own thing with the main Batman title rather than trying to finish Tom King's stories, so you could really probably hop on here at #86 as well. With the COVID comics delay, his run is only up to about #92 or so, so he's only a half dozen issues in. Of course if you want to do the pre-New 52 reboot (New Earth, as it's called), we could go down that road too. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who could help with that either Afraid I'm not much use on Superman/Super-people stories though. I do know for sure that the Rebirth reboot ditched the New 52 Superman and brought back the original New Earth Superman, but otherwise, Mr Clark Kent isn't always the most interesting to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 4:25:26 GMT
i just want to add something. i have had this discussion in real life and online and heard others have it as well. one thing that i think everyone assumes is " if the normies just knew what comics were really like. they would buy them." i am pretty convinced the normies do know and they aren't interested. Hmm.
Depends. I am not sure "normies" really make an effort to look into it. And if they ever give themselves a chance to learn to appreciate comics. I am not sure if to call it "disinterest" or more "ignorance" and "indifference". I would not call myself a "normie" (not by a long shot and my family and friends would laugh in my face if I did). But I have grown up with the firm (indoctrinated) belief that comics were just for kids and there were only juvenile stories told. In my family, we only ever had comics like Tintin and Asterix, and my parents refused to ever buy us any other comics. I remember from my childhood that one of my uncles who died at a young age was an avid comic fan. He had a HUGE collection. When he died, my dad, his brother, just gave the comics away. We kids were not allowed to have them (I assume there was some adult and violent stuff in there, as well as the "useless superhero stuff"). What my dad could not give away, he burned. I am sure today these things might have been worth a fortune. Having grown up with this attitude, I always looked down on comics. Only when I studied, I actually started to go into comic book stores and looked at what they had there and bought some stuff. I started out with Star Trek (because I am a Trekkie) and slowly branched out. I learned that comics are indeed a work of art and some of them are truly amazing. Yes, there are still comics which are juvenile and violent trash, but they are indeed an art-form in themselves.
Certainly nothing to look down upon. I still retain some of the inbred apprehension, however, and for a long time I for example refused to look into the Who comics. I thought they were just a bunch of juvenile Kiddie- stories. Luckily, the good people on this forum convinced me to give them a try. This was certainly not the last time I was wrong with my assumptions. Some of the Who comics are truly amazing with some fantastic original characters.
As a more normie perspective- A couple of years ago, my sister was dragged by a friend of hers (who is a famous German cos-player and lives in our village and attends every European convention in existence) to a comic festival organized by the local comic book store. My sister said she felt like visiting another planet and she would never had thought there were so many "crazy people" living in our region. Plus, the whole thing reminded her of an episode of "the Big Bang Theory" with all the archetypical characters present. I have also tried introducing comics to my sister and to my niece and nephew, but I predict that might not be entirely successful.
Looking at it from that initial perspective as an outsider, part of the issue might be the same one that's plagued introductions to things like anime over the past couple decades. Treating a medium strictly like its own single genre. "Do you like comics?" is a bit like asking "Do you like movies?" or "Do you like novels?" I like particular kinds of movies and novels. I've favourite genres and authors, but the question is a bit too broad to come up with anything conclusive. Those Star Trek comics (I'm thinking of the DC ones with the original TOS movie crew, though there are others) are a good example of how it isn't all Silver Age word balloons and superheroes. There's a range of storytelling styles across the medium. The Sixth Doctor comics are great as an example because altogether they're a *starts counting on fingers* high-fantasy soft science-fiction grim light romance contemporary retrofuturist action mystery adventure 1. You know, the kind of run where you can go from a serious Asimov-inspired kidnapping tale to a romp with gangsters and jazz that wouldn't look out of place in Fireball-XL5 (or the recent Nebula-75). 1 - Fulfilling Doctor Who's longstanding mission statement that strict genres are a thing that happens to other series.
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Post by elkawho on Jul 7, 2020 18:37:31 GMT
My problem is figuring out where to start after being away from it for so many years. I used to be a regular consumer of Superman (and related "super" stories), Batman, and Spiderman. But the stories have expanded and been revised so much (in terms of backstory) that it's a bit of a mystery what to buy or read. So I just don't. I look at them (also on Comixology) and in the end don't buy. As a rule (at least with Batman, because that's my go-to), the start of a new writer's tenure is usually a good spot. The New 52 reboot in 2011 changed Batman's early years, and for my money what Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo did with their 50-odd issues (the only writer/artist team to stay on their title for the entire run of the New 52) was just terrific end to end. That's the main "Batman" title that ran from 2011-16, issues #1-51. When DC did their "Rebirth" reboot in 2016, they started again at #1 but Tom King took over as writer. He didn't really make any major continuity changes and made the run all his own. His time as writer could be a bit trying on an arc-to-arc basis IMO. For me at least, he seesawed back and forth between "oh my god this is terrible" and "holy smokes this is good" without much in between. His run started in 2016 at #1 and ran till late 2019 at #85 when he was taken off writing duty for reasons that are still a bit murky. He wasn't completely thrown aside though, DC offered him a 12-issue miniseries (Batman/Catwoman) to conclude the storylines he was hoping to continue. That hasn't been published yet -- it was supposed to be earlier this year, but the artist (Clay Mann) needed extra time because he was working on another comic and King decided that Mann's art was worth the wait. That, plus comics being delayed for the last few months mean it just hasn't happened yet. Post-#85, the main Batman line was taken over by James Tynion IV, a protege of Scott Snyder's who did a few guest co-writing spots during Snyder's run and who wrote the Rebirth run of Detective Comics from 2016-18. Tynion has set about doing his own thing with the main Batman title rather than trying to finish Tom King's stories, so you could really probably hop on here at #86 as well. With the COVID comics delay, his run is only up to about #92 or so, so he's only a half dozen issues in. Of course if you want to do the pre-New 52 reboot (New Earth, as it's called), we could go down that road too. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who could help with that either Afraid I'm not much use on Superman/Super-people stories though. I do know for sure that the Rebirth reboot ditched the New 52 Superman and brought back the original New Earth Superman, but otherwise, Mr Clark Kent isn't always the most interesting to me. I've heard really good things about Scott Snyder's Batman and I've wanted to read it but just haven't gotten around to it. Thanks for the information, though. It's very helpful.
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Post by Digi on Jul 7, 2020 19:01:02 GMT
And Scott Snyder isn't related to Zack Snyder, for anyone reading the thread and wondering
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Sept 24, 2020 9:53:31 GMT
Touches on a few things covered here too:
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