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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 19:34:29 GMT
I would have preferred Calypso to have appeared before with the 6th Doctor, the introduction of an NB character in a story dealing with a bigot seems like they are only there as a plot device, an antithesis to Lovecraft’s beliefs, which does them a disservice. Yeah, it reminds me of the TV show getting a pat on the back for casting a deaf actor for Under The Leak/Before The Flood in Series 9 when her deafness was then necessary for everyone to get out alive. That's not inclusivity.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Aug 5, 2020 14:38:27 GMT
I would have preferred Calypso to have appeared before with the 6th Doctor, the introduction of an NB character in a story dealing with a bigot seems like they are only there as a plot device, an antithesis to Lovecraft’s beliefs, which does them a disservice. Yeah, it reminds me of the TV show getting a pat on the back for casting a deaf actor for Under The Leak/Before The Flood in Series 9 when her deafness was then necessary for everyone to get out alive. That's not inclusivity. This does feed into a debate going on in media, and its creators, right now on whether representation is better when a trait is highlighted, or not. Is it more progressive to have a deaf or blind person's view/ability used in a story, or to just have them be part of the world fabric where it doesn't matter? Does it risk tokenism in the one or empty lip-service on the other?
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Post by constonks on Aug 5, 2020 14:53:38 GMT
Yeah, it reminds me of the TV show getting a pat on the back for casting a deaf actor for Under The Leak/Before The Flood in Series 9 when her deafness was then necessary for everyone to get out alive. That's not inclusivity. This does feed into a debate going on in media, and its creators, right now on whether representation is better when a trait is highlighted, or not. Is it more progressive to have a deaf or blind person's view/ability used in a story, or to just have them be part of the world fabric where it doesn't matter? Does it risk tokenism in the one or empty lip-service on the other? I think the simplest answer is to do both, whenever appropriate. Don't have one "diverse" character in your series and call it a day, regardless of how you use them in the story. And if you have diverse characters, sometimes their specific life experiences will change the story you're telling - and sometimes they won't. So, sure, lip reading is part of the plot in Under the Lake, so they hired a deaf actress. But, in another Capaldi episode, we have Rachel Denning - IIRC her height doesn't enter into the story of The Pyramid at the End of the World at all. Similarly, Bethany Black being trans isn't a part of Sleep No More.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2020 16:14:58 GMT
Yeah, it reminds me of the TV show getting a pat on the back for casting a deaf actor for Under The Leak/Before The Flood in Series 9 when her deafness was then necessary for everyone to get out alive. That's not inclusivity. This does feed into a debate going on in media, and its creators, right now on whether representation is better when a trait is highlighted, or not. Is it more progressive to have a deaf or blind person's view/ability used in a story, or to just have them be part of the world fabric where it doesn't matter? Does it risk tokenism in the one or empty lip-service on the other? I think the debate has moved on significantly even since 2015 when that ep aired. It's uncomfortable for someone to only be utilised as a manifestation of Chekov's Gun especially when press releases were sent out highlighting the progressive casting. That was unfortunate. Things have gotten better though and more voices are being heard from groups sick of having their conditions used cheaply, or worse like super-powers. As raised above, the very next series had a short person whose height played no part. Not long ago that scene with The Doctor trapped and Bill having to ask The Monks for help would be because she couldn't reach some doodah, or the like, making the reason for her casting obvious. I'm glad the show, and the BBC in general, has moved away from that so quickly. Any accusations of pandering, quotas and agendas I don't listen to anyway as they're idiotic now, they'll hopefully look even moreso as society integrates more and we reintroduce - God forbid - tolerance, and an eagerness to understand each other's situations. Rather than the majority getting to have mainstream pop culture and media made to be seen through their prism.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Aug 5, 2020 17:36:35 GMT
This does feed into a debate going on in media, and its creators, right now on whether representation is better when a trait is highlighted, or not. Is it more progressive to have a deaf or blind person's view/ability used in a story, or to just have them be part of the world fabric where it doesn't matter? Does it risk tokenism in the one or empty lip-service on the other? I think the debate has moved on significantly even since 2015 when that ep aired. It's uncomfortable for someone to only be utilised as a manifestation of Chekov's Gun especially when press releases were sent out highlighting the progressive casting. That was unfortunate. Things have gotten better though and more voices are being heard from groups sick of having their conditions used cheaply, or worse like super-powers. As raised above, the very next series had a short person whose height played no part. Not long ago that scene with The Doctor trapped and Bill having to ask The Monks for help would be because she couldn't reach some doodah, or the like, making the reason for her casting obvious. I'm glad the show, and the BBC in general, has moved away from that so quickly. Any accusations of pandering, quotas and agendas I don't listen to anyway as they're idiotic now, they'll hopefully look even moreso as society integrates more and we reintroduce - God forbid - tolerance, and an eagerness to understand each other's situations. Rather than the majority getting to have mainstream pop culture and media made to be seen through their prism. I very much agree with your points, though I would err on that, while it has gotten better, improvement is still slow-coming: look at how split discourse was about Last of Us 2, where some claimed it was empowering for women in games and others said it was using abused women as meat puppets for another male-revenge fantasy, or (though this is more behind-the-scenes) BBC's A Suitable Boy causing upset, with British-Asian writers and filmmakers being angry that Andrew Davies was hired to write it, rather than someone from that background. For Davies, it's just another show - for a Asian screenwriter, it could've been a career maker and even a way to bust stereotypes. As someone who works in television (and indeed, owed his first break to a diverse-positive show), even as it outwardly looks like representation has moved ahead considerably, I do hear often from peers and colleagues how hard it still is to increase representation without 'justification' from execs or even the show's own makers.
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Post by vivdunstan on Aug 11, 2020 5:40:45 GMT
Just listened to it now. I was rather dreading it, though I have strongly critical views about Lovecraft’s racism, and have an ongoing battle separating his writings from his views. It’s also a problem I have with other authors I still read, including Agatha Christie, Charles Dickens and Enid Blyton. But for me those authors are not comparable to the challenge I have when reading HPL.
I’m pleased to say that I enjoyed it more than I feared. I liked the idea of a dangerous virtual world created from HPL’s stories and monsters, and overall I enjoyed this. I’m not usually a fan of stories starting in the middle of the action, but the opening was brisk, and set up the audio’s main situation effectively.
However I wasn’t entirely happy with how the racism aspect was handled. HPL’s racism wasn’t demonstrated strongly enough for me, and was assumed far too readily by characters told about it at the start. Though it might have been extremely difficult to demonstrate it in action acceptably on audio.
More worryingly as a lifelong Doctor Who fan I found the Doctor’s closing words to HPL cruel. I don’t think it was in character. Even the 6th incarnation. I’m struck by how often the Doctor gave passes to other appalling characters, not least Nazi soldiers in the previous 6th Doctor story. Against that there is a slightly more hopeful section after, but it’s still an unpleasant moment.
I understand why tweaks were made. Given what happened recently in the wider world re Black Lives Matter this became an extremely problematic release for Big Finish. They did what they thought was best. The original version would have been more nuanced, though still not handled quite as I would have liked, with too much telling and not enough showing.
Oh and thumbs up for the Call of Cthulhu RPG references in the story. At times it felt like listening to an audio version of “Petersen’s Field Guide to Cthulhu Monsters”. Though I did wonder how well people unfamiliar with the critters of the Mythos would visualise them from the descriptions in the audio.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Aug 11, 2020 7:53:34 GMT
Edit: In fact, thinking about it - and it is good to have a story that makes you think - the bombastic Sixth Doctor telling a dying Lovecraft how much better he is than Lovecraft doesn't paint the Time Lord in a particularly good light. Judgemental, yes, kind, no.
I think that if Howard had shown even a hint of contrition, the seed of being a better man than history remembers and most importantly didn’t attempt to attribute similarities between himself and the Doctor, the Doctor would have been far more tactful.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Aug 11, 2020 21:07:44 GMT
Edit: In fact, thinking about it - and it is good to have a story that makes you think - the bombastic Sixth Doctor telling a dying Lovecraft how much better he is than Lovecraft doesn't paint the Time Lord in a particularly good light. Judgemental, yes, kind, no.
I think that if Howard had shown even a hint of contrition, the seed of being a better man than history remembers and most importantly didn’t attempt to attribute similarities between himself and the Doctor, the Doctor would have been far more tactful. That said, he was far more polite than some of the other Doctors might have been - Three, Nine and Twelve would have eaten him alive, ten and one would have shouted at him, four just brushed him off and perhaps only Thirteen and Two would have shown more compassion towards him.
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Post by grinch on Aug 11, 2020 21:09:58 GMT
I think that if Howard had shown even a hint of contrition, the seed of being a better man than history remembers and most importantly didn’t attempt to attribute similarities between himself and the Doctor, the Doctor would have been far more tactful. That said, he was far more polite than some of the other Doctors might have been - Three, Nine and Twelve would have eaten him alive, ten and one would have shouted at him, four just brushed him off and perhaps only Thirteen and Two would have shown more compassion towards him. Two strikes me as the sort who would quietly whisper ‘No’ and then walk off shaking his head sadly as he does so.
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Post by mark687 on Aug 21, 2020 15:36:50 GMT
DW MR Subscriber PDF Script and Extended Interviews DL are in Accounts.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Hieronymus on Aug 21, 2020 18:41:05 GMT
I read the entire corpus of Lovecraft when I was a teenager, and I enjoyed this story.
While there are skilled writers out there who could prepare a more detailed and thoughtful review point by point, I think any commentary from me beyond that fact and opinion would be surplus to requirement. There are certainly many points on which listeners could feel strongly one way or the other, I saw this as a bit of a nostalgic romp with bits added.
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Post by slithe on Oct 28, 2020 9:23:36 GMT
So... After the furore and issues associated with this release, I deliberately avoided it and have only just got round to listening to it. I didn't quite intend to leave it that long, but events seemed to delay my listening for longer than I expected.
I thought this was an 'ok' release. It did the job and was a reasonably good story and kept me entertained. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't amazing either. Where I am a bit frustrated, to put it mildly, is that this ends a trilogy with Sixie-Connie-Flip that has been a long time waiting for, yet nothing really has happened to develop the characterisation and/or story-arc. Little is developed from the ending of Static - which you would expect to see considering the implications of that story. It is almost like this Trilogy could precede Static and it would make more sense. Perhaps it's the wrong phrasing here, but I felt a bit let down by this one.
I am not familiar with Lovecraft's work, so the more subtle nuances here probably went over my head. I envisaged this almost as being like The Invisible Enemy - with the Doctor/Flip going into Lovecraft's Body to catch the Somnifax, whilst Constance/Calypso deal with the threat outside and keep watch. The interaction between the characters was good and Calypso was one character that I'd like to see again - her interplay with Sixie was particularly strong (I also think she'd work well with 7 as well - I got a NA vibe about her).
Undoubtedly, edits have been made to the story. I could work out where they were likely to be and it would be interesting to hear (or read) the original at some point. There was a lot which you could comment on in respect of the wider issues raised by Lovecraft and his work, which does make this worth a revisit at some point. If I'm honest, I found Lovecraft to be a rather pathetic character (whether that was intentional or not) and the contrast between him and Calpyso was probably very powerful.
Not sure about the ending. I get why Sixie said what he did (this was probably one of the areas of re-write) but I'm not sure it fits the incarnation (this being the Doctor that tries to shake Davros' hand at the end of Revelation). I picture it with 7, but not Sixie so much. The approach also jars a bit with the treatment of the Nazis/collaborators in the previous story as well.
Not a bad release. I was hoping for more from the trilogy if I'm honest. The idea of fantasy and reality could have mixed well with 'who' Constance is now post-Static. Hopefully, this will be revisited soon in a future trilogy.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 7, 2020 13:08:35 GMT
I think the debate has moved on significantly even since 2015 when that ep aired. It's uncomfortable for someone to only be utilised as a manifestation of Chekov's Gun especially when press releases were sent out highlighting the progressive casting. That was unfortunate. Things have gotten better though and more voices are being heard from groups sick of having their conditions used cheaply, or worse like super-powers. As raised above, the very next series had a short person whose height played no part. Not long ago that scene with The Doctor trapped and Bill having to ask The Monks for help would be because she couldn't reach some doodah, or the like, making the reason for her casting obvious. I'm glad the show, and the BBC in general, has moved away from that so quickly. Any accusations of pandering, quotas and agendas I don't listen to anyway as they're idiotic now, they'll hopefully look even moreso as society integrates more and we reintroduce - God forbid - tolerance, and an eagerness to understand each other's situations. Rather than the majority getting to have mainstream pop culture and media made to be seen through their prism. I very much agree with your points, though I would err on that, while it has gotten better, improvement is still slow-coming: look at how split discourse was about Last of Us 2, where some claimed it was empowering for women in games and others said it was using abused women as meat puppets for another male-revenge fantasy, or (though this is more behind-the-scenes) BBC's A Suitable Boy causing upset, with British-Asian writers and filmmakers being angry that Andrew Davies was hired to write it, rather than someone from that background. For Davies, it's just another show - for a Asian screenwriter, it could've been a career maker and even a way to bust stereotypes. As someone who works in television (and indeed, owed his first break to a diverse-positive show), even as it outwardly looks like representation has moved ahead considerably, I do hear often from peers and colleagues how hard it still is to increase representation without 'justification' from execs or even the show's own makers. So, bit of a belated follow up, but I think worthwhile: here's a thread of LGBTQ writers, talking about work being rejected. Sadly, issues are still present and, frankly, it's only one of many reminders that the entertainment industry is not as blindly-woke or mega left-wing as pundits try to insist it is:
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Post by Ela on Oct 17, 2021 4:48:30 GMT
I'm not a huge Lovecraft fan, but I was amused at the thought of them having to face his creations brought to life.
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