|
Post by timegirl on Sept 12, 2020 2:50:42 GMT
River’s comment about wizards in fairytales always being the Doctor rings pretty true here. It’s clear that The Moff was running a clear fairytale agenda during his time, pretty explicitly during Matt Smith’s time as the Doctor. In the Classic run, it was something that I noticed with the McCoy Doctor: a lot of his stories had him interacting with fairy tales (Fenric, the gods of Ragnarok, Arthur) while previous incarnations would have commented on similarities or written them off as a coincidence (Underworld references a lot of Greek myth, seeing as it’s a retelling of the story of Jason). But then, the show has always riffed off classic literature, most obviously during the Hinchcliffe/Williams eras. It's kind of interesting what we mean by "fairytale", isn't it? The Seventh Doctor feels, at times, like a myth wandering through other mythologies. The novelisation of The Curse of Fenric, for instance, tells a story-within-a-story of a djinn, Aboo-Fenran, terrorising a Great City and its rulers; a Traveller challenging it to a game of traps over forty days and forty nights. A tale that, in its telling, bears some resemblance to the folk stories of One Thousand and One Nights. The emphasis of Fenric shifts, as the flask moves through various cultures and societies, but never its underlying nature. Not unlike the Doctor in their various appearances. Underworld's an interesting example as from our perspective (and the TARDIS travellers), we're encountering the myth of "Jason and the Argonauts". From the perspective of the Minyans aboard their spacecraft, they're confronted with the Gods from their own mythology through the Doctor. It's a regular force in Leela's stories, in particular. The Horror of Fang Rock is a superstition turned terrifying reality, the Doctor confronts a childhood horror in The Image of the Fendahl and, outside of Underworld, the Doctor (or, at least, his image) accidentally became a deity in The Face of Evil. A saviour to the Tesh and a force of evil to the Sevateem. In the classic series, the fairytale aspect has leaned more towards the original Brothers Grimm or Hans Christian Anderson interpretations than their Disney counterparts. That’s interesting about 7 being a myth wandering through mythologies do you think that was done to tie into the Cartmel master plan? Also interesting that when Classic Who references fairytales it’s usually Brothers Grimm or Anderson but with Modern they are more likely to reference Disney interpretations 🤔
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 3:27:48 GMT
It's kind of interesting what we mean by "fairytale", isn't it? The Seventh Doctor feels, at times, like a myth wandering through other mythologies. The novelisation of The Curse of Fenric, for instance, tells a story-within-a-story of a djinn, Aboo-Fenran, terrorising a Great City and its rulers; a Traveller challenging it to a game of traps over forty days and forty nights. A tale that, in its telling, bears some resemblance to the folk stories of One Thousand and One Nights. The emphasis of Fenric shifts, as the flask moves through various cultures and societies, but never its underlying nature. Not unlike the Doctor in their various appearances. Underworld's an interesting example as from our perspective (and the TARDIS travellers), we're encountering the myth of "Jason and the Argonauts". From the perspective of the Minyans aboard their spacecraft, they're confronted with the Gods from their own mythology through the Doctor. It's a regular force in Leela's stories, in particular. The Horror of Fang Rock is a superstition turned terrifying reality, the Doctor confronts a childhood horror in The Image of the Fendahl and, outside of Underworld, the Doctor (or, at least, his image) accidentally became a deity in The Face of Evil. A saviour to the Tesh and a force of evil to the Sevateem. In the classic series, the fairytale aspect has leaned more towards the original Brothers Grimm or Hans Christian Anderson interpretations than their Disney counterparts. That’s interesting about 7 being a myth wandering through mythologies do you think that was done to tie into the Cartmel master plan? Also interesting that when Classic Who references fairytales it’s usually Brothers Grimm or Anderson but with Modern they are more likely to reference Disney interpretations 🤔 Yeah, I think so, part of the appeal of the Doctor -- according to Andrew Cartmel -- was an element of mystery regarding his origins and, at times, his intentions. In one of the NAs, Transit, the book describes him as this vast and shapeless thing crammed down into a small, affable body. A lot of emphasis was put on the otherworldly aspect of his incarnation, which is ironic because it only helped to emphasise incredibly human moments of compassion and weakness. Ah, now, that might have something to do with what happened during the Wilderness Years. Here's a theory: I have a tendency to split the period in half with the TV Movie in the middle. In the first half of the 1990s, the direction of the show was more towards what's called hard sci-fi. Stories that took influences from space opera, Gothic horror and cyberpunk. It was quite a lot about impact. Companions didn't twist ankles, they broke them. The Doctor's -- all Doctors' -- tendency for violence was put under the microscope and so on. Come the TV Movie and something rather interesting happens in the texture of the show. There's a new element of magical realism or straight fantasy that ends up introduced into the mix. The impact is still there, but there's less of an element of fatalism. That "this is it," feeling. Whether the backdoor pilot was well-received or not, the show had been given another chance in a period where genuine considerations were being made to regenerate the Doctor in the books. That validation, this new Doctor, opened up the possibility of a more Disney-like approach (part of the Eighth Doctor's characterisation as someone just happy to be alive also helped nudge that forward). It's very, very cautious at first, but by the time of the Moffat era... The show has well and truly gotten a happy ending. It's back and well-established. But, in addition to that, it's phased out of being something primarily aimed at teens or adults (as it was during the 1990s) and returned to being a family programme. Addressing a new demographic and new generations of fans, so the myths, consequently, became more optimistic in their telling.
|
|
|
Post by timegirl on Sept 12, 2020 3:54:26 GMT
That’s interesting about 7 being a myth wandering through mythologies do you think that was done to tie into the Cartmel master plan? Also interesting that when Classic Who references fairytales it’s usually Brothers Grimm or Anderson but with Modern they are more likely to reference Disney interpretations 🤔 Yeah, I think so, part of the appeal of the Doctor -- according to Andrew Cartmel -- was an element of mystery regarding his origins and, at times, his intentions. In one of the NAs, Transit, the book describes him as this vast and shapeless thing crammed down into a small, affable body. A lot of emphasis was put on the otherworldly aspect of his incarnation, which is ironic because it only helped to emphasise incredibly human moments of compassion and weakness. Ah, now, that might have something to do with what happened during the Wilderness Years. Here's a theory: I have a tendency to split the period in half with the TV Movie in the middle. In the first half of the 1990s, the direction of the show was more towards what's called hard sci-fi. Stories that took influences from space opera, Gothic horror and cyberpunk. It was quite a lot about impact. Companions didn't twist ankles, they broke them. The Doctor's -- all Doctors' -- tendency for violence was put under the microscope and so on. Come the TV Movie and something rather interesting happens in the texture of the show. There's a new element of magical realism or straight fantasy that ends up introduced into the mix. The impact is still there, but there's less of an element of fatalism. That "this is it," feeling. Whether the backdoor pilot was well-received or not, the show had been given another chance in a period where genuine considerations were being made to regenerate the Doctor in the books. That validation, this new Doctor, opened up the possibility of a more Disney-like approach (part of the Eighth Doctor's characterisation as someone just happy to be alive also helped nudge that forward). It's very, very cautious at first, but by the time of the Moffat era... The show has well and truly gotten a happy ending. It's back and well-established. But, in addition to that, it's phased out of being something primarily aimed at teens or adults (as it was during the 1990s) and returned to being a family programme. Addressing a new demographic and new generations of fans, so the myths, consequently, became more optimistic in their telling. I have to admit I kind of really like the “Disney” approach in Modern Who, it’s a bit cheesy at times but lots of heartwarming moments there and there’s something to be said for that magical element 😊the fairytale elements of modern Who often get me a bit emotional 😢 I like classic who a lot but sometimes I often find there’s a cerebral coldness to it at times hence the “Grimm/Anderson” feeling to the fairytale aspects, it almost feels eerily detached. The darker take is interesting but it doesn’t always have the warmth New Who does. Do you ever think Modern Who will go back that more cerebral “Grimm/ Anderson” feel? Although I ultimately prefer a bit more of the “Disney” take, it could be interesting for a while 🤔 Also I am curious, what do you think about the 12 and Clara beauty and the beast parallel? There are so many similarities I can’t help but wonder if it was intentional on Moffat’s part 🤔
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 4:20:38 GMT
Are we allowed to use the word Fairy? It isn’t PC 😉 PC isn’t a fairy: he’s the Twelfth Doctor ... I’ll get my coat. And don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way oot 🤪😂
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 4:25:46 GMT
I guess on the fairy tale aspect we can now have the Doctor awaken from a hundred year sleep by the kiss of a handsome PRINCE
DO YOU THINK AM STILL BITTER ?😂😂😎😜
|
|
shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,667
|
Post by shutupbanks on Sept 12, 2020 4:41:42 GMT
I’m not sure about McCoy and fairytales on BF, although he does seem to be more into the shady/ nebulous areas of history than his other incarnations. With 12 and Clara, I got more of a morality tale vibe off them along the lines of “don’t meet your heroes” mashed up with “don’t look too long into the abyss.” Clara so wanted to recapture the magic (there’s that word again) she had with 11 that she ended up becoming like him. I think she had a combative/addictive relationship with 12 but by the opening of Death in Heaven (that wonderful “do you think I care for you so little...” line) their friendship/ love and trust had reasserted itself over the codependency they had. Which is making me feel that Beauty and the Beast may not be too far off, though I’m not sure whois who, character-wise. Interesting 🤔 🙂 I’m curious by what you mean not sure who is who, character wise? The obvious one is 12 as Beast, Clara as Beauty. But they spend so much of Season 8 alienating each other and winning each other back that you could make a claim that they are frequently unwelcome in each other’s spaces and swap those roles. In Deep Breath, it’s clear that the handsome young prince has been transformed into a gnarled old beast but he’s still the same person: it’s up to Clara to turn him back into a person she sort of recognises. In The Caretaker, they each resent that the other is encroaching on their territory and push against each other. In Kill the Moon they are at loggerheads and deciding that they must go their own way. It takes MotOE for the Doctor to win Clara back onto his side: she’s made a choice to reject him, but in Flatline they realise that they are flipped sides to each other, with the foreshadowing that Clara is every bit as capable as the Doctor. After Danny’s death Clara becomes the beast by being addicted to the life of adventure and it’s the Doctor who has to try and pull her back from the brink. It’s a bit muddy in places but there’s a lot of interchangeability between the two of them: Beauty resents the Beast at first then comes to love him and, ultimately, transforms him. Clara resents the “new” Doctor but comes to care about him and guide him back onto his path but then she becomes far too reckless and “beast-like” herself and it’s the Doctor that has to bring her back.
|
|
shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,667
|
Post by shutupbanks on Sept 12, 2020 4:42:44 GMT
I guess on the fairy tale aspect we can now have the Doctor awaken from a hundred year sleep by the kiss of a handsome PRINCE DO YOU THINK AM STILL BITTER ?😂😂😎😜 There’s some that would like to see her being awakened by a fair cop.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 4:53:16 GMT
I guess on the fairy tale aspect we can now have the Doctor awaken from a hundred year sleep by the kiss of a handsome PRINCE DO YOU THINK AM STILL BITTER ?😂😂😎😜 There’s some that would like to see her being awakened by a fair cop. Is that innuendo lol?....I prefer my Doctor when HE was above all that stuff I mean I wouldn’t feel safe in the TARDIS anymore 🤪
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 7:52:22 GMT
Yeah, I think so, part of the appeal of the Doctor -- according to Andrew Cartmel -- was an element of mystery regarding his origins and, at times, his intentions. In one of the NAs, Transit, the book describes him as this vast and shapeless thing crammed down into a small, affable body. A lot of emphasis was put on the otherworldly aspect of his incarnation, which is ironic because it only helped to emphasise incredibly human moments of compassion and weakness. Ah, now, that might have something to do with what happened during the Wilderness Years. Here's a theory: I have a tendency to split the period in half with the TV Movie in the middle. In the first half of the 1990s, the direction of the show was more towards what's called hard sci-fi. Stories that took influences from space opera, Gothic horror and cyberpunk. It was quite a lot about impact. Companions didn't twist ankles, they broke them. The Doctor's -- all Doctors' -- tendency for violence was put under the microscope and so on. Come the TV Movie and something rather interesting happens in the texture of the show. There's a new element of magical realism or straight fantasy that ends up introduced into the mix. The impact is still there, but there's less of an element of fatalism. That "this is it," feeling. Whether the backdoor pilot was well-received or not, the show had been given another chance in a period where genuine considerations were being made to regenerate the Doctor in the books. That validation, this new Doctor, opened up the possibility of a more Disney-like approach (part of the Eighth Doctor's characterisation as someone just happy to be alive also helped nudge that forward). It's very, very cautious at first, but by the time of the Moffat era... The show has well and truly gotten a happy ending. It's back and well-established. But, in addition to that, it's phased out of being something primarily aimed at teens or adults (as it was during the 1990s) and returned to being a family programme. Addressing a new demographic and new generations of fans, so the myths, consequently, became more optimistic in their telling. I have to admit I kind of really like the “Disney” approach in Modern Who, it’s a bit cheesy at times but lots of heartwarming moments there and there’s something to be said for that magical element 😊the fairytale elements of modern Who often get me a bit emotional 😢 I like classic who a lot but sometimes I often find there’s a cerebral coldness to it at times hence the “Grimm/Anderson” feeling to the fairytale aspects, it almost feels eerily detached. The darker take is interesting but it doesn’t always have the warmth New Who does. Do you ever think Modern Who will go back that more cerebral “Grimm/ Anderson” feel? Although I ultimately prefer a bit more of the “Disney” take, it could be interesting for a while 🤔 In some ways, it already has. The Chibnall era's been very up front about not necessarily providing a happy ending. Classic Who did something similar, but the thing to remember about one of the earliest examples, something like The Aztecs, is that history is all about perspective. The take-away from that story for me was what the Doctor said to Barbara at the very end: And he considers that to have been a good enough reason to have come in the first place. It may only be one, but it's still one. It's not nothing. Also I am curious, what do you think about the 12 and Clara beauty and the beast parallel? There are so many similarities I can’t help but wonder if it was intentional on Moffat’s part 🤔 It's certainly possible. The impression I got watching, regarding Clara's character flaw -- the "Beast-like" quality, so to speak, that tends to get her into trouble (and later seals her fate) -- is that she's more likely to repress her problems than actively talk them out. Her way of coping with problems beyond her control is to hide them. She hides the Doctor from Danny, hides her grief from the Doctor and uses the TARDIS as a way to hide from her everyday life. If something repressed needs to be addressed, it's usually through some form of confrontation. If it isn't, then it leaks out in ways like her actively seeking out danger (culminating in Face the Raven). I get the impression that's a learned behaviour. Maybe growing up after her mother passed, she didn't have anyone she could talk to (or felt comfortable talking to) about that and it became her way.
|
|
|
Post by timegirl on Sept 12, 2020 12:38:18 GMT
Interesting 🤔 🙂 I’m curious by what you mean not sure who is who, character wise? The obvious one is 12 as Beast, Clara as Beauty. But they spend so much of Season 8 alienating each other and winning each other back that you could make a claim that they are frequently unwelcome in each other’s spaces and swap those roles. In Deep Breath, it’s clear that the handsome young prince has been transformed into a gnarled old beast but he’s still the same person: it’s up to Clara to turn him back into a person she sort of recognises. In The Caretaker, they each resent that the other is encroaching on their territory and push against each other. In Kill the Moon they are at loggerheads and deciding that they must go their own way. It takes MotOE for the Doctor to win Clara back onto his side: she’s made a choice to reject him, but in Flatline they realise that they are flipped sides to each other, with the foreshadowing that Clara is every bit as capable as the Doctor. After Danny’s death Clara becomes the beast by being addicted to the life of adventure and it’s the Doctor who has to try and pull her back from the brink. It’s a bit muddy in places but there’s a lot of interchangeability between the two of them: Beauty resents the Beast at first then comes to love him and, ultimately, transforms him. Clara resents the “new” Doctor but comes to care about him and guide him back onto his path but then she becomes far too reckless and “beast-like” herself and it’s the Doctor that has to bring her back. That’s kind of fascinating what you bring up about the Beauty and the Beast parallels where 12 is Beast and Clara is Beauty, but after trying to help turn 12 into someone she recognizes as the Doctor she takes on some of his reckless “beast-like” qualities herself. Another interesting unconventional Beauty and the beast aspect is that while Clara does help 12 her “beast” mellow out and learn social skills, he does not physically transform that much unlike most versions of the story. He does look a bit less severe overtime (longer hair, less buttoned up, smiles more) but his transformation is mostly mental and contemplative. Clara accepts during Deep Breath that she can’t physically transform him back into a dashing young man (and defends herself on this during the veil scene) after initially wanting to, but she does after lots of pushback help him loosen up and be more kind. Clara “ the beauty” never gets her young handsome prince back but that’s okay with her because she becomes even closer with her Beast instead. To be honest she probably would be a bit disappointed and confused if her beast did somehow manage to actually physically transform back into a “prince”, as she initially wanted in Deep Breath. Both Clara taking on more aggressive negative “beast” like qualities and 12’s transformation away from beastliness being more mental rather than physical, make it seem like a slightly more realistic take on the Beauty and Beast story.
|
|
|
Post by timegirl on Sept 12, 2020 18:41:49 GMT
I have to admit I kind of really like the “Disney” approach in Modern Who, it’s a bit cheesy at times but lots of heartwarming moments there and there’s something to be said for that magical element 😊the fairytale elements of modern Who often get me a bit emotional 😢 I like classic who a lot but sometimes I often find there’s a cerebral coldness to it at times hence the “Grimm/Anderson” feeling to the fairytale aspects, it almost feels eerily detached. The darker take is interesting but it doesn’t always have the warmth New Who does. Do you ever think Modern Who will go back that more cerebral “Grimm/ Anderson” feel? Although I ultimately prefer a bit more of the “Disney” take, it could be interesting for a while 🤔 In some ways, it already has. The Chibnall era's been very up front about not necessarily providing a happy ending. Classic Who did something similar, but the thing to remember about one of the earliest examples, something like The Aztecs, is that history is all about perspective. The take-away from that story for me was what the Doctor said to Barbara at the very end: And he considers that to have been a good enough reason to have come in the first place. It may only be one, but it's still one. It's not nothing. Also I am curious, what do you think about the 12 and Clara beauty and the beast parallel? There are so many similarities I can’t help but wonder if it was intentional on Moffat’s part 🤔 It's certainly possible. The impression I got watching, regarding Clara's character flaw -- the "Beast-like" quality, so to speak, that tends to get her into trouble (and later seals her fate) -- is that she's more likely to repress her problems than actively talk them out. Her way of coping with problems beyond her control is to hide them. She hides the Doctor from Danny, hides her grief from the Doctor and uses the TARDIS as a way to hide from her everyday life. If something repressed needs to be addressed, it's usually through some form of confrontation. If it isn't, then it leaks out in ways like her actively seeking out danger (culminating in Face the Raven). I get the impression that's a learned behaviour. Maybe growing up after her mother passed, she didn't have anyone she could talk to (or felt comfortable talking to) about that and it became her way. Interesting that things seem to be shifting away from the Disney approach in the Chibnall era🤔 I wonder if the tonal shift was influenced by Chibnall’s work on Broadchurch at all? Out of curiosity do you prefer the Disney approach or the Grimm/Anderson approach in homaging fairytales in Who? It’s so interesting that more than one of you brought up Clara taking on 12’s more aggressive beastly qualities in the process of trying to help him🤔 I wonder if the more realistic approach to the beauty and the beast homage, such as Clara taking on beastly qualities and 12’s transformation away from beastliness being more mental than physical was meant to contrast/subvert the more straightforward fairytale feel of 11’s era?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 21:25:09 GMT
In some ways, it already has. The Chibnall era's been very up front about not necessarily providing a happy ending. Classic Who did something similar, but the thing to remember about one of the earliest examples, something like The Aztecs, is that history is all about perspective. The take-away from that story for me was what the Doctor said to Barbara at the very end: And he considers that to have been a good enough reason to have come in the first place. It may only be one, but it's still one. It's not nothing. It's certainly possible. The impression I got watching, regarding Clara's character flaw -- the "Beast-like" quality, so to speak, that tends to get her into trouble (and later seals her fate) -- is that she's more likely to repress her problems than actively talk them out. Her way of coping with problems beyond her control is to hide them. She hides the Doctor from Danny, hides her grief from the Doctor and uses the TARDIS as a way to hide from her everyday life. If something repressed needs to be addressed, it's usually through some form of confrontation. If it isn't, then it leaks out in ways like her actively seeking out danger (culminating in Face the Raven). I get the impression that's a learned behaviour. Maybe growing up after her mother passed, she didn't have anyone she could talk to (or felt comfortable talking to) about that and it became her way. Interesting that things seem to be shifting away from the Disney approach in the Chibnall era🤔 I wonder if the tonal shift was influenced by Chibnall’s work on Broadchurch at all? Out of curiosity do you prefer the Disney approach or the Grimm/Anderson approach in homaging fairytales in Who?
It’s so interesting that more than one of you brought up Clara taking on 12’s more aggressive beastly qualities in the process of trying to help him🤔 I wonder if the more realistic approach to the beauty and the beast homage, such as Clara taking on beastly qualities and 12’s transformation away from beastliness being more mental than physical was meant to contrast/subvert the more straightforward fairytale feel of 11’s era? It depends on the story? It depends on the story. What a cop out answer that is. True enough, though. It depends on what the author is trying to accomplish. For instance, The Holy Terror is the darkest of dark fairytales -- complete with a cautionary moral lesson -- but the ending is well-earned and poignant for its subject matter. Something like A Christmas Carol, in contrast, benefits from something upbeat.
|
|
|
Post by timegirl on Sept 16, 2020 18:41:15 GMT
What fairytales would you like Doctor Who to homage that they have not already? And what already existing fairytale parallels in who would you like to be expanded on?
I would be curious if they did Cinderella parallel with the Doctor but with a male incarnation (to be less stereotypical) them being in a different guise than we are used to with that incarnation and then it ending abruptly at midnight.
A retelling of the little mermaid with a sea devil who longs to be human saves the Doctor and against their better judgment the Doctor uses the chameleon arch on the sea devil to transform her into a human as a way to repay her and she becomes a companion. The sea devil turned human has difficulty adjusting to her new species and also develops a bit of crush on the Doctor due to them “saving her.
Theme I would like expanded on is 12 and Clara’s parallel with Beauty and the Beast. There is a lot that could be played in expanded universe particularly since it’s an unconventional take on the fairytale. Also I would like at one point for Doctor Who to go full “Disney” at some point for one story perhaps even have small animals go follow around the Doctor and companion(s),etc.😁
This is going to sound weirdly specific but on the topic of fairytale genres in Who, I would like a Doctor Who story in the style of a 1980s urban fantasy modern fairytale romantic comedy. Something along the lines of Splash and Big🤔
|
|