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Post by timegirl on Sept 16, 2020 19:25:22 GMT
These are both Victorian Gothic mystery episodes set in London with two very alien incarnations of the Doctor (4 and 12) and feature a quirky investigation team that have shades of Sherlock Holmes (Jago and Lightfoot/Paternoster Gang). Which of these do you prefer? Or do you like both equally or neither?
My take:
While I prefer Jago and Lightfoot over Paternoster Gang and the atmosphere of “Talons” is very effective and creepy I ultimately prefer “Deep Breath”. Deep Breath in fact is one of the episodes that I watch the most of Doctor Who! It just has so many different layers to it. The villain The half faced man is not only extremely creepy he also ties parallels the Doctor symbolically with how he replaced his features so many other parts. It’s also very funny and heartbreaking. “Big sexy woman” , the veil scene, “Just see me.”, these are just a few memorable moments. Talons has good mystery and atmosphere but is bit more emotionally sterile than I enjoy. Also Deep Breath isn’t problematic like Talons is, and I think may age better in fans eyes. Both are brilliant in their way though and I am glad talons gave us Jago and Lightfoot but ultimately I choose Deep Breath.
side note: I wish we could have a story where 12 teams up with Jago and Lightfoot!
Which story do you prefer?
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Post by grinch on Sept 16, 2020 19:39:13 GMT
Of course, it just has to be the Talons of Weng-Chiang. It’s the first appearance of those infernal investigators Jago and Litefoot after all!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 20:04:39 GMT
I think we can judge them entirely superficially and arbitrarily upon how fittingly each story goes into the Target Books range:
Doctor Who and the Talons of Weng Chiang
versus
Doctor Who and Deep Breath
Talons wins my vote....
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Sept 16, 2020 20:20:21 GMT
Talons. Deep Breath was when, after my initial positive reaction to the casting of Capaldi, the alarm bells started ringing for me. Talons is, despite some problematic elements, one of the best Who stories ever & one of my earliest Dr Who memories.
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Post by pazzer on Sept 16, 2020 22:09:55 GMT
Find Deep Breath a bit clunky. I get Clara is stand in for audiance in adjusting to new Doctor. But she's seen all previous Doctors so that didn't really work for me. Then you have the ending which is both the best and worst part.
I get Talons is problematic but it's still one of the best ever episodes of Who.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 22:32:27 GMT
In one word, Talons!
I know it has it's critics but for me The Talons of Weng-Chiang is one of the best Doctor Who stories ever made.
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Post by timegirl on Sept 16, 2020 22:41:07 GMT
Interesting 🤔
Seems I’m the only person who prefers Deep Breath😄 I think both are really good, but Deep Breath wins for me being the first story of my favorite Doctor and having more emotional depth.
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Post by polly on Sept 17, 2020 19:09:01 GMT
Talons by a mile. It nails the spooky atmosphere, it has better supporting characters - and not just Jago and Litefoot - and it keeps the more implausible things confined to the characters actually involved in the story. Exquisite dialogue. Great pacing, especially for a 6-parter. Plus, it has one of my all-time favorite Leela scenes - her late dinner with Litefoot.
Deep Breath....well, I like Capaldi's performance, I like "I'm not your boyfriend," and the actual "deep breath" scene is very tense. But, I really do not like the Paternoster Gang in the least. The story in general exemplifies what I mean when I say the new series treats history like a playground and not a real setting. They are far too brazen for a bunch of aliens stranded on earth, both with being aliens and with being gay. Then there's a damn dinosaur in the Thames for all to see. It strains credibility. I know that Doctor Who is not realistic, but it does have to be believable.
It also begins the Missy plotline, and she is another character I really do not like.
So for me, it's an all time classic vs a decent episode with serious dislikes.
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Post by grinch on Sept 17, 2020 19:10:55 GMT
Talons by a mile. It nails the spooky atmosphere, it has better supporting characters - and not just Jago and Litefoot - and it keeps the more implausible things confined to the characters actually involved in the story. Exquisite dialogue. Great pacing, especially for a 6-parter. Plus, it has one of my all-time favorite Leela scenes - her late dinner with Litefoot. Deep Breath....well, I like Capaldi's performance, and the actual "deep breath" scene is very tense. But, I really do not like the Paternoster Gang in the least. The story in general exemplifies what I mean when I say the new series treats history like a playground and not a real setting. They are far too brazen for a bunch of aliens stranded on earth, both with being aliens and with being gay. Then there's a damn dinosaur in the Thames for all to see. It strains credibility. I know that Doctor Who is not realistic, but it does have to be believable. It also begins the Missy plotline, and she is another character I really do not like. So for me, it's an all time classic vs a decent episode with serious dislikes. I must admit (although my opinion has softened somewhat since then) that when I first watched Deep Breath I thought the Paternoster Gang had been written as a potential spin off first and characters second. Not sure if that makes any sense but it’s the best I can articulate it. |
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Post by polly on Sept 17, 2020 19:16:02 GMT
I must admit (although my opinion has softened somewhat since then) that when I first watched Deep Breath I thought the Paternoster Gang had been written as a potential spin off first and characters second. Not sure if that makes any sense but it’s the best I can articulate it. Makes sense to me. Back when they were first introduced for the Battle of Demons Run, I didn't understand why they were given so much emphasis. We'd never seen them before, and yet the show acted like they'd been there forever. I don't mind the Doctor having adventures we don't know about, but for these characters to come from nowhere and immediately gain such prominence....yes, it seems like there's a second agenda at work, very possibly a spinoff-y one. If the point was Eleven calling in his favors, there are other, pre-established characters he could have called on, or at the very least the ones we knew should have been the most important. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 19:28:14 GMT
Interesting 🤔 Seems I’m the only person who prefers Deep Breath😄 I think both are really good, but Deep Breath wins for me being the first story of my favorite Doctor and having more emotional depth. I'm not sure I prefer Deep Breath, but I think I like both stories roughly the same. Talons is beautifully filmed, features an incredible cast and has Tom Baker and Louise Jameson at the height of their powers. However, I do think it is a little overlong and Michael Spice ascends to new heights of ham. The highlight for me is Mr Sin, one seriously scary creation. Little details like him having the heart of a pig only adds to this.
Deep Breath contains similarly gruesome elements to its story. It also features another favourite Doctor, played by Peter Capaldi, putting in a majestic debut performance ("Don't look in that mirror: it's furious!"). Some wonderful creations like the half-face-man, a restaurant full of creepy non-eaters and of course, Missy.
Of the two out-sized creatures, clearly the dinosaur looks the best (haven't seen the new Talons Blu-Ray effects, but that will be rectified soon!), but the giant rat is more easy to invest in. Clara's conversations with Vastra about the Doctor's new appearance are incredibly good and profound, undone by the fact that Clara has seen the Doctor's many incarnations already, so why would she be so bothered here (just one line about 'but the 11th Doctoe was 'my' Doctor' would have helped)? Then again, Henry Gordon Jago's extravagant streams of dialogue are wonderful too.
So it's difficult to choose for me. But difficult in a good way!
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Post by timegirl on Sept 17, 2020 19:44:55 GMT
Interesting 🤔 Seems I’m the only person who prefers Deep Breath😄 I think both are really good, but Deep Breath wins for me being the first story of my favorite Doctor and having more emotional depth. I'm not sure I prefer Deep Breath, but I think I like both stories roughly the same. Talons is beautifully filmed, features an incredible cast and has Tom Baker and Louise Jameson at the height of their powers. However, I do think it is a little overlong and Michael Spice ascends to new heights of ham. The highlight for me is Mr Sin, one seriously scary creation. Little details like him having the heart of a pig only adds to this.
Deep Breath contains similarly gruesome elements to its story. It also features another favourite Doctor, played by Peter Capaldi, putting in a majestic debut performance ("Don't look in that mirror: it's furious!"). Some wonderful creations like the half-face-man, a restaurant full of creepy non-eaters and of course, Missy.
Of the two out-sized creatures, clearly the dinosaur looks the best (haven't seen the new Talons Blu-Ray effects, but that will be rectified soon!), but the giant rat is more easy to invest in. Clara's conversations with Vastra about the Doctor's new appearance are incredibly good and profound, undone by the fact that Clara has seen the Doctor's many incarnations already, so why would she be so bothered here (just one line about 'but the 11th Doctoe was 'my' Doctor' would have helped)? Then again, Henry Gordon Jago's extravagant streams of dialogue are wonderful too.
So it's difficult to choose for me. But difficult in a good way!
That’s a very good explanation they are both brilliant in their own ways but with flaws! I completely agree about the conversation with Vastra! It’s one of my favorite scenes in the whole episode but with one major flaw! Just that one line could have helped! On a side note: I think when Big Finish eventually get Capaldi and Coleman they should really explore the themes more of the Vastra conversation because I think it could be explored and expanded on even more. I know exactly how they could go about it as well. |
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Sept 17, 2020 20:12:18 GMT
The Paternoster Gang are the best thing about Deep Breath!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 20:48:59 GMT
I'm not sure I prefer Deep Breath, but I think I like both stories roughly the same. Talons is beautifully filmed, features an incredible cast and has Tom Baker and Louise Jameson at the height of their powers. However, I do think it is a little overlong and Michael Spice ascends to new heights of ham. The highlight for me is Mr Sin, one seriously scary creation. Little details like him having the heart of a pig only adds to this.
Deep Breath contains similarly gruesome elements to its story. It also features another favourite Doctor, played by Peter Capaldi, putting in a majestic debut performance ("Don't look in that mirror: it's furious!"). Some wonderful creations like the half-face-man, a restaurant full of creepy non-eaters and of course, Missy.
Of the two out-sized creatures, clearly the dinosaur looks the best (haven't seen the new Talons Blu-Ray effects, but that will be rectified soon!), but the giant rat is more easy to invest in. Clara's conversations with Vastra about the Doctor's new appearance are incredibly good and profound, undone by the fact that Clara has seen the Doctor's many incarnations already, so why would she be so bothered here (just one line about 'but the 11th Doctoe was 'my' Doctor' would have helped)? Then again, Henry Gordon Jago's extravagant streams of dialogue are wonderful too.
So it's difficult to choose for me. But difficult in a good way!
That’s a very good explanation they are both brilliant in their own ways but with flaws! I completely agree about the conversation with Vastra! It’s one of my favorite scenes in the whole episode but with one major flaw! Just that one line could have helped! On a side note: I think when Big Finish eventually get Capaldi and Coleman they should really explore the themes more of the Vastra conversation because I think it could be explored and expanded on even more. I know exactly how they could go about it as well. Thank you for pretending you didn't notice I referred to the 11th Doctor as the 11th Doctoe!! I always manage at least one typo with every post 
I thought the conversation Vastra had with Clara was excellent and yes, well worth exploring again. The bit about the masks slipping and the vagaries of perception were superbly written and acted. Mind you, I also enjoyed The Seventh Doctor's explanation of his change of appearance to Mel in Tim and the Rani ("It's entirely perceptual!"). I love the way Doctor Who has made such a profound and witty virtue of a change of lead actor. It's one of the many things on Doctor Who could get away with, I think!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 19:35:32 GMT
Definitely Talons....and I find the Paternoster just another overfilling of a particular time period with friends of the Doctor...did Torchwood also exist at this Time?
If it had been an alternative timeline I would have said ok but once the trio met Jago that was an end to my way of thinking lol.
Deep breath was visually well done but am not a fan
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Post by grinch on Sept 27, 2020 19:46:43 GMT
Definitely Talons....and I find the Paternoster just another overfilling of a particular time period with friends of the Doctor...did Torchwood also exist at this Time? If it had been an alternative timeline I would have said ok but once the trio met Jago that was an end to my way of thinking lol. Deep breath was visually well done but am not a fan I always like to joke that with the likes of Jago and Litefoot, Torchwood and the Paternoster Gang (not to mention Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson) that the Victorian era is so protected against alien intervention that the Doctor need not ever revisit the time period. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 19:48:47 GMT
Definitely Talons....and I find the Paternoster just another overfilling of a particular time period with friends of the Doctor...did Torchwood also exist at this Time? If it had been an alternative timeline I would have said ok but once the trio met Jago that was an end to my way of thinking lol. Deep breath was visually well done but am not a fan I always like to joke that with the likes of Jago and Litefoot, Torchwood and the Paternoster Gang (not to mention Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson) that the Victorian era is so protected against alien intervention that the Doctor need not ever revisit the time period. Excellently put...hey shove them in Georgian Times in can’t remember the Georgian Epsisodes title and I probably wouldn’t have batted an eyelid lol |
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Post by timegirl on Sept 27, 2020 19:57:26 GMT
Definitely Talons....and I find the Paternoster just another overfilling of a particular time period with friends of the Doctor...did Torchwood also exist at this Time? If it had been an alternative timeline I would have said ok but once the trio met Jago that was an end to my way of thinking lol. Deep breath was visually well done but am not a fan I always like to joke that with the likes of Jago and Litefoot, Torchwood and the Paternoster Gang (not to mention Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson) that the Victorian era is so protected against alien intervention that the Doctor need not ever revisit the time period. That’s very true what if all those Victorian alien intervention teams stared their own secret combined league of alien crime fighting?😄 |
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