Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 22:42:39 GMT
I was listening to The Wormery again and I was caught by the cute little line from the barmaid, Mickey: "The audio medium... It can be so deceptive," which triggered an old memory. I think it turned up as a question years and years ago, so I'll be interested to see what's changed and remained the same (if I remember ). Audio stories function primarily on a theatre of the mind. Listeners can direct, provide production design, costuming, lighting and so on. How does your mental image of Doctor Who on audio differ from that seen on television (if at all)? For listeners who came to the audio dramas first and saw the original stories later: what did you imagine accurately and what was radically different from what appeared on in the BBC's studios? How much has seeing the televised article changed that perception of what was imagined before?
|
|
|
Post by timegirl on Sept 18, 2020 22:58:02 GMT
For me it depends on the story. If it’s something very traditional Who (that could be on tv ) I picture it with all the effects and sets and costumes that you would get if it was a tv episode. On the other hand if it’s something much more experimental or expansive my mental picture is much more cinematic or expressive. For example, The Holy Terror, I picture the sets springing up from pages of an old fashioned book.
|
|
|
Post by timegirl on Sept 18, 2020 23:18:57 GMT
I was listening to The Wormery again and I was caught by the cute little line from the barmaid, Mickey: "The audio medium... It can be so deceptive," which triggered an old memory. I think it turned up as a question years and years ago, so I'll be interested to see what's changed and remained the same (if I remember ). Audio stories function primarily on a theatre of the mind. Listeners can direct, provide production design, costuming, lighting and so on. How does your mental image of Doctor Who on audio differ from that seen on television (if at all)? For listeners who came to the audio dramas first and saw the original stories later: what did you imagine accurately and what was radically different from what appeared on in the BBC's studios? How much has seeing the televised article changed that perception of what was imagined before? how do you visualize it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 7:00:09 GMT
I was listening to The Wormery again and I was caught by the cute little line from the barmaid, Mickey: "The audio medium... It can be so deceptive," which triggered an old memory. I think it turned up as a question years and years ago, so I'll be interested to see what's changed and remained the same (if I remember ). Audio stories function primarily on a theatre of the mind. Listeners can direct, provide production design, costuming, lighting and so on. How does your mental image of Doctor Who on audio differ from that seen on television (if at all)? For listeners who came to the audio dramas first and saw the original stories later: what did you imagine accurately and what was radically different from what appeared on in the BBC's studios? How much has seeing the televised article changed that perception of what was imagined before? how do you visualize it? Me? Hmm... I find with a lot of stories, I spend quite a lot of my imagination with the body language and interaction of the characters. They're rarely standing still. One thing that's always stuck with me is the Doctor chastising, "It's rude to point, you know," to someone in The Apocalypse Element. Something about the way that Colin Baker delivers the line, it's really hard not to visualise Sixie doing exactly the same thing from the opposite end of the room. I'm much the same, although I wish I had the imagination for doing The Holy Terror as a pop-up book, that's rather brilliant. The closest I've gotten to that, which has stuck in the memory, is The Magic Mousetrap. The whole story looks as though it could have been shot by Wes Anderson, using that dollshouse aesthetic from The Grand Budapest Hotel. Quirky and macabre without either cancelling one another out. The Wormery was a lot gritter than I remembered, so the whole thing is shot at night "on film". Gaudy tatters under cool studio lights. Bianca's having a sort of faded elegance of paint-stripped doors plastered in counterculture stickers you find in Bohemian haunts. It doesn't really resemble anything from television at the time. Zaltys, on the other hand, I couldn't help but picture with peak 1982 production values. Right down to the Quantel matte paintings and modelwork for the surface of the planet. An incredibly snug fit for that time period.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 7:23:06 GMT
Me? Hmm... I find with a lot of stories, I spend quite a lot of my imagination with the body language and interaction of the characters. They're rarely standing still. One thing that's always stuck with me is the Doctor chastising, "It's rude to point, you know," to someone in The Apocalypse Element. Something about the way that Colin Baker delivers the line, it's really hard not to visualise Sixie doing exactly the same thing from the opposite end of the room. I'm much the same, although I wish I had the imagination for doing The Holy Terror as a pop-up book, that's rather brilliant. The closest I've gotten to that, which has stuck in the memory, is The Magic Mousetrap. The whole story looks as though it could have been shot by Wes Anderson, using that dollshouse aesthetic from The Grand Budapest Hotel. Quirky and macabre without either cancelling one another out. The Wormery was a lot gritter than I remembered, so the whole thing is shot at night "on film". Gaudy tatters under cool studio lights. Bianca's having a sort of faded elegance of paint-stripped doors plastered in counterculture stickers you find in Bohemian haunts. It doesn't really resemble anything from television at the time. Zaltys, on the other hand, I couldn't help but picture with peak 1982 production values. Right down to the Quantel matte paintings and modelwork for the surface of the planet. An incredibly snug fit for that time period. I have to agree on the Zaltys ....I very much imagined Peri and Sixes pinkish planet in MINDWARP lol. Other ones Magic Mousetrap filmic Poirot later Film style (Suchet) but definitely it’s so ingrained and the comedic timings are super you cannot help but picture the scenes vividly. Iterations Of I very dark an grainy almost film noir another one that for me becomes scene by scene...The house on Fleming island I in no way picture it in the style of the CD artwork cover it’s more a house than the castle featured but with definite gothic styled architecture all TV harsh lighting has been removed in all my imaginings there are shadows in everything 🤪 The Iterations one also I have imaginings akin to Evil Willow in BUFFY absorbing the magic from the books and the writing flowing over the body type of effect so a lot of the imaginings are from other shows and the way the team might have tried to film it in the past or dodgy effects
|
|
|
Post by tuigirl on Sept 19, 2020 8:13:10 GMT
Well, in my minds eye everything is certainly more elaborate than the visuals of the classic stories ever were. Plus, since I came from New Who originally, everything is much more grittier and darker (not the bright TARDIS interior, for example). Since many BF stories are big on atmosphere and creepy and decrepit spaceships and haunted houses, seeing it as dark and spooky environments really enhances the audio. Also, the explosions are a bit bigger and fancier in my head. If the sound design is done right, I can also very well imagine the environments. However. I have had some real issues imagining big crowds and supposedly large planetary populations and crowded settings on audio. More often than not, this does not work for me. I think one of the reasons is that it is only a small cast in most audios, and conveying a huge crowd just does not work. It always throws me right out of the setting. As an example, "Dark Universe" falls apart for me completely, because it is a supposedly universe shattering story, but for me, just sounds like a locked room mystery with a very small cast (which it is). I know that BF is trying to do something about this, and when they are at conventions, they use the fans in the audience to record some crowd scenes. I think this is very clever, and the fans are happy to do that. But I am also aware they cannot do this all the time. Therefore, for me, BF stories that play out in a well defined setting with a small cast always work best for me, examples would be Scherzo, Night Thoughts, Aquitaine, and the first 3 stories from the latest Benny set (Volume 6). While Dark Universe and "Gallifrey" from the latest Benny set would be examples of stories that did not work for me. As for how I imagine the Doctors and companions.... I might be a special case. I "suffer" (not sure if that is the right word, because I am not really suffering and got over my constant embarrassment) from aphantasia for visualising faces. I cannot picture faces, even of people very close to me and even loved ones, in my mind. I close my eyes and I am unable to picture the face of the person in front of me. I recognize people by voice, gait, stature and their little ticks. Oh, and if they have green hair or something, and male and female, if obvious. Even when I paint my Warhammer miniatures, I have real issue painting the faces (I prefer helmets) because I just cannot visualise how it is supposed to look. This can be really embarrassing in normal life because I mix up people all the time and call them by the wrong names. I meet new people every day, I always say. Anyways, so when listening to audios, I can imagine very well the action and how the Doctor and companions react and all the shenanigans they do. But I never see their faces. So when I started listening to the classic stories by Big Finish, and did not even know exactly how the old Doctors looked like, this was no issue at all, because I imagines just generic people going through the motions. With Peter Davison, I knew Tristan from All Creatures and I just imagined the vet jumping ship to BF.... Plus, Sixie's coat is a special case, that is something that even my brain tends to tone down on audio.
|
|
|
Post by Timelord007 on Sept 19, 2020 8:21:09 GMT
Listen to Doctor Who at night in the dark, close your eyes let your imagination flow, works for me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 9:01:10 GMT
Me? Hmm... I find with a lot of stories, I spend quite a lot of my imagination with the body language and interaction of the characters. They're rarely standing still. One thing that's always stuck with me is the Doctor chastising, "It's rude to point, you know," to someone in The Apocalypse Element. Something about the way that Colin Baker delivers the line, it's really hard not to visualise Sixie doing exactly the same thing from the opposite end of the room. I'm much the same, although I wish I had the imagination for doing The Holy Terror as a pop-up book, that's rather brilliant. The closest I've gotten to that, which has stuck in the memory, is The Magic Mousetrap. The whole story looks as though it could have been shot by Wes Anderson, using that dollshouse aesthetic from The Grand Budapest Hotel. Quirky and macabre without either cancelling one another out. The Wormery was a lot gritter than I remembered, so the whole thing is shot at night "on film". Gaudy tatters under cool studio lights. Bianca's having a sort of faded elegance of paint-stripped doors plastered in counterculture stickers you find in Bohemian haunts. It doesn't really resemble anything from television at the time. Zaltys, on the other hand, I couldn't help but picture with peak 1982 production values. Right down to the Quantel matte paintings and modelwork for the surface of the planet. An incredibly snug fit for that time period. I have to agree on the Zaltys ....I very much imagined Peri and Sixes pinkish planet in MINDWARP lol.
Other ones Magic Mousetrap filmic Poirot later Film style (Suchet) but definitely it’s so ingrained and the comedic timings are super you cannot help but picture the scenes vividly. Iterations Of I very dark an grainy almost film noir another one that for me becomes scene by scene...The house on Fleming island I in no way picture it in the style of the CD artwork cover it’s more a house than the castle featured but with definite gothic styled architecture all TV harsh lighting has been removed in all my imaginings there are shadows in everything 🤪 The Iterations one also I have imaginings akin to Evil Willow in BUFFY absorbing the magic from the books and the writing flowing over the body type of effect so a lot of the imaginings are from other shows and the way the team might have tried to film it in the past or dodgy effects Yeah, it was that and -- do you remember the desert planet, Zolfa-Thura, from Meglos? Rather than film on location or build a set, they constructed a miniature of the Screens and put the actors on a separate chromakey set. The idea being that when one camera moved across the "landscape" with the characters, the live image of the miniature would shift accordingly in the background. Very clever, but a little bit like that. Iterations of I was straight John Carpenter and strobe lights for me I remember. All the colour draining from the room and then just a technicolour whirligig of conflicting shapes as the I attempted its breakthrough. The kind of camera trick where you can fake the room into taking on a shape that doesn't look quite right to the human eye. [...] I know that BF is trying to do something about this, and when they are at conventions, they use the fans in the audience to record some crowd scenes. I think this is very clever, and the fans are happy to do that. But I am also aware they cannot do this all the time. This is kind of a side note, but a fun story all the same: Back in the pre-Big Finish days, when there was a fan-led audio production company called Audio Visuals, they managed to bring aboard Nabil Shaban -- who'd just recently played Sil on television -- for their Guy Fawkes story. He got really into it. The sound effects of an encounter between the king's guards and the conspirators were done, in part, by him helpfully disassembling parts of his wheelchair and hammering them together. Clash! Clash! Bang! Clash! He was so caught up in his mêlée that he missed the cue from the director to end the scene and only finished his battle when he discovered he was the only one left fighting it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 9:46:05 GMT
Well, in my minds eye everything is certainly more elaborate than the visuals of the classic stories ever were. Plus, since I came from New Who originally, everything is much more grittier and darker (not the bright TARDIS interior, for example). Since many BF stories are big on atmosphere and creepy and decrepit spaceships and haunted houses, seeing it as dark and spooky environments really enhances the audio. Also, the explosions are a bit bigger and fancier in my head. If the sound design is done right, I can also very well imagine the environments. However. I have had some real issues imagining big crowds and supposedly large planetary populations and crowded settings on audio. More often than not, this does not work for me. I think one of the reasons is that it is only a small cast in most audios, and conveying a huge crowd just does not work. It always throws me right out of the setting. As an example, "Dark Universe" falls apart for me completely, because it is a supposedly universe shattering story, but for me, just sounds like a locked room mystery with a very small cast (which it is). I know that BF is trying to do something about this, and when they are at conventions, they use the fans in the audience to record some crowd scenes. I think this is very clever, and the fans are happy to do that. But I am also aware they cannot do this all the time. Therefore, for me, BF stories that play out in a well defined setting with a small cast always work best for me, examples would be Scherzo, Night Thoughts, Aquitaine, and the first 3 stories from the latest Benny set (Volume 6). While Dark Universe and "Gallifrey" from the latest Benny set would be examples of stories that did not work for me. As for how I imagine the Doctors and companions.... I might be a special case. I "suffer" (not sure if that is the right word, because I am not really suffering and got over my constant embarrassment) from aphantasia for visualising faces. I cannot picture faces, even of people very close to me and even loved ones, in my mind. I close my eyes and I am unable to picture the face of the person in front of me. I recognize people by voice, gait, stature and their little ticks. Oh, and if they have green hair or something, and male and female, if obvious. Even when I paint my Warhammer miniatures, I have real issue painting the faces (I prefer helmets) because I just cannot visualise how it is supposed to look. This can be really embarrassing in normal life because I mix up people all the time and call them by the wrong names. I meet new people every day, I always say. Anyways, so when listening to audios, I can imagine very well the action and how the Doctor and companions react and all the shenanigans they do. But I never see their faces. So when I started listening to the classic stories by Big Finish, and did not even know exactly how the old Doctors looked like, this was no issue at all, because I imagines just generic people going through the motions. With Peter Davison, I knew Tristan from All Creatures and I just imagined the vet jumping ship to BF.... Plus, Sixie's coat is a special case, that is something that even my brain tends to tone down on audio. That’s pretty interesting as am a definite face person.
|
|
|
Post by tuigirl on Sept 19, 2020 9:56:28 GMT
That’s pretty interesting as am a definite face person. I think this is maybe why I like audio dramas so much. Since I am forced to recognize people by voice, I am very good at keeping voices apart on audio and telling the characters apart as well as recognizing them very fast. Opposed to that it takes me several episodes in a TV series to learn to recognize the characters- especially when they do not have defining costumes (which makes Who a very "easy" series for me to watch; Star Trek is also easy, as is Orville, since everybody is colour coded ). Maybe that is one of the reason I am not watching a lot of TV.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 10:13:11 GMT
That’s pretty interesting as am a definite face person. I think this is maybe why I like audio dramas so much. Since I am forced to recognize people by voice, I am very good at keeping voices apart on audio and telling the characters apart as well as recognizing them very fast. Opposed to that it takes me several episodes in a TV series to learn to recognize the characters- especially when they do not have defining costumes (which makes Who a very "easy" series for me to watch; Star Trek is also easy, as is Orville, since everybody is colour coded ). Maybe that is one of the reason I am not watching a lot of TV.
I do not tend anymore to watch a lot of TV but even in audio facial expression is important in my imaginings.Someone like Tegan for instance in delivering a dry line or a quote I see a definite facial expression ...back later away to drive on the pavements🤪
|
|
|
Post by tuigirl on Sept 19, 2020 10:18:36 GMT
I think this is maybe why I like audio dramas so much. Since I am forced to recognize people by voice, I am very good at keeping voices apart on audio and telling the characters apart as well as recognizing them very fast. Opposed to that it takes me several episodes in a TV series to learn to recognize the characters- especially when they do not have defining costumes (which makes Who a very "easy" series for me to watch; Star Trek is also easy, as is Orville, since everybody is colour coded ). Maybe that is one of the reason I am not watching a lot of TV.
I do not tend anymore to watch a lot of TV but even in audio facial expression is important in my imaginings.Someone like Tegan for instance in delivering a dry line or a quote I see a definite facial expression ...back later away to drive on the pavements🤪 I have not even owned a TV for years.
Even without facial expressions I somehow can imagine the reactions and emotions. So while I cannot image the facial expression, I can imagine how the characters feel. I basically visualize the emotions.
|
|
mbt66
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 3,081
|
Post by mbt66 on Sept 19, 2020 10:45:02 GMT
For me it depends on the story. If it’s something very traditional Who (that could be on tv ) I picture it with all the effects and sets and costumes that you would get if it was a tv episode. On the other hand if it’s something much more experimental or expansive my mental picture is much more cinematic or expressive. For example, The Holy Terror, I picture the sets springing up from pages of an old fashioned book. Oh I am going to have to dig out my CD and listen with that in mind - thank you for the imagination prompt! It is one of the appeals of audio, the visuals can change every time you listen to a story.
|
|
|
Post by barnabaslives on Sept 19, 2020 10:47:06 GMT
I hadn't really thought it before - I'm surprised by my answers, actually. I guess I tend to see the audio adventures of the first four Doctors more era-appropriate and the rest a little more New Series. I've no idea why that is. Also for the first two Doctors things are a bit Schroedinger - I don't really picture them in black and white or color, but if someone asks then black and white naturally, lol.
I don't think I've ever been surprised by the show's look even though I'd seen very little if any of the first two Doctors before listening to their audios, I'd only seen An Unearthly Child and had only seen Pat Troughton in multi-Doctor stories, but I just thought okay black and white, mid-60's and a modest effects budget and things probably came pretty close to the TV episodes. The TV movie was also a lot like I imagined from Eight Doctor audios.
|
|
|
Post by shallacatop on Sept 19, 2020 11:58:00 GMT
I think my mind naturally smooths out the rough edges, but I do picture them as era appropriate, down to their visual representation. So that’s black and white for adventures with the first two Doctors, the faded colour of the Third Doctor, etc. I can’t remember if I mentioned it at the time, but I pictured volume two of the 10DAs with that odd Vaseline style look that the 2006 series had!
It sounds weird reading the above back, but it’s just my mind trying to picture the look as easy as possible, which is taking the visuals of the TARDIS teams and their respective eras exactly how I’d see them if I stuck a DVD or BluRay on.
|
|
|
Post by Echohawk on Sept 19, 2020 13:31:33 GMT
As for how I imagine the Doctors and companions.... I might be a special case. I "suffer" (not sure if that is the right word, because I am not really suffering and got over my constant embarrassment) from aphantasia for visualising faces. This is a fascinating thread. I don't have aphantasia, but I do have a mild form of prosopagnosia, which is the face-specific version of aphantasia. While I can usually recognize people I've met before, that's a result of a lifetime of learning to remember things other than their faces, just as you described -- voices, height, hairstyles or even clothing styles. My condition is mild enough that I can recognize the faces of close family members or friends I've known a long time, but new faces -- no chance.
As far as visualizing audio stories goes, I tend to see the setting and the scenery quite clearly in my mind, but the people (even most of the monsters) are all just nebulous placeholders. Except, for some reason, Sixie, whose coat is always his specific placeholder. Amusingly, this is true even for the stories in which he has switched to his blue coat. For those audios (assuming I'm aware that I'm listening to a blue-coat story), Sixie's placeholder switches to the blue coat.
For example, I'm currently busy listening to The Rani Elite1. I could sketch out the basic layout of the College of Advanced Galactic Education as it appears in my mind's eye, including the relative positions of the rooms Peri and the Doctor are held prisoner in, the medical facility, the library and the Vice-Chancellor's office. I can picture the furniture, light fittings, and exactly where everyone is standing in each scene. But the protagonists themselves are just undefined blobs, except for the coat.
1This is entirely unrelated to this thread, but despite being a life-long Doctor Who fan, I somehow only discovered Big Finish about five or six years back. Since then I've been working my way through BF's entire Who and Who spin-off output in the exact order it was released. (Yes, this has been a fairly expensive undertaking.) I'm almost at the end of 2014 now, and by my count, I've listened to 751½ stories, and I still have 840½ left to go. That means that BF's Who output in the six years from 2015-2020 has exceeded the seventeen years from 1998-2014, which is an impressive feat.
|
|
|
Post by tuigirl on Sept 19, 2020 13:48:23 GMT
As for how I imagine the Doctors and companions.... I might be a special case. I "suffer" (not sure if that is the right word, because I am not really suffering and got over my constant embarrassment) from aphantasia for visualising faces. This is a fascinating thread. I don't have aphantasia, but I do have a mild form of prosopagnosia, which is the face-specific version of aphantasia. While I can usually recognize people I've met before, that's a result of a lifetime of learning to remember things other than their faces, just as you described -- voices, height, hairstyles or even clothing styles. My condition is mild enough that I can recognize the faces of close family members or friends I've known a long time, but new faces -- no chance.
As far as visualizing audio stories goes, I tend to see the setting and the scenery quite clearly in my mind, but the people (even most of the monsters) are all just nebulous placeholders. Except, for some reason, Sixie, whose coat is always his specific placeholder. Amusingly, this is true even for the stories in which he has switched to his blue coat. For those audios (assuming I'm aware that I'm listening to a blue-coat story), Sixie's placeholder switches to the blue coat.
Ah, I knew there must be a specific name for the condition. I also have it only specific for faces, like you. But it is so bad, I actually have issues visualizing my mum and dad and even my own face. It can get quite embarrassing, but at my workplace, people usually know about this pretty fast and when I explain myself, further embarrassment is prevented. Even my students when teaching sooner or later accepted the fact, and understood that it was not meant personally. But we are not alone! There are actually 2 more people at my workplace (500 people) that I know of who have the same problem.
Oh, and what you describe about the placeholders.... yeah, this sounds familiar. Depending on how much I concentrate on the story and how much I am involved, I have the same experience.
As for Sixies coat... I usually tone it down mentally, but I have difficulty visualizing the blue version.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Sept 19, 2020 15:05:30 GMT
I don't put effort into visualizing. I let the images come of their own accord.
Sometimes, it's like watching a daydream. Other times, I do not so much as see images. Instead, I ....I don't know how to put this into words.... I feel the shape of the events. I intuit what is going on, sort of in the same way that when you close your eyes and move your hand to your mouth, you can feel the shape of the movement without seeing it.
|
|
|
Post by Echohawk on Sept 19, 2020 15:14:51 GMT
But we are not alone! There are actually 2 more people at my workplace (500 people) that I know of who have the same problem. Probably even more. Apparently about 2% of the population suffers from prosopagnosia in some form. I suspect many of those people don't realize it though, and just assume they are bad at remembering people. (Like I did for most of my life.)
|
|
|
Post by timegirl on Sept 19, 2020 15:16:44 GMT
I think my mind naturally smooths out the rough edges, but I do picture them as era appropriate, down to their visual representation. So that’s black and white for adventures with the first two Doctors, the faded colour of the Third Doctor, etc. I can’t remember if I mentioned it at the time, but I pictured volume two of the 10DAs with that odd Vaseline style look that the 2006 series had! It sounds weird reading the above back, but it’s just my mind trying to picture the look as easy as possible, which is taking the visuals of the TARDIS teams and their respective eras exactly how I’d see them if I stuck a DVD or BluRay on. That’s so funny I always thought that RTD era had an odd Vaseline look to it too! I wondered if anyone else noticed that!🤔😄
|
|