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Post by Kestrel on Sept 20, 2020 3:57:46 GMT
This is now a general discussion thread for anything and everything related to the 8th Doctor, the Big Finish Doctor, Paul McGann's Doctor. Discuss it all: past, present and future.
Original Post: I plan on renaming this thread to, "The 8th Doctor: General Discussion (Spoilers, all) eventually, but for now, to start, I'd like to talk about something that affects the whole of Paul McGann's work with Big Finish. So... what do y'all think the 8th Doctor's biggest weakness is, either in terms of the stories offered, or the characters used? I was thinking lately about who each Doctor's "definitive" companions are, and why. The 2nd Doctor has Jaime; the 4th Doctor has Sarah Jane; the 6th Doctor has Evelyn (whose appreciation thread is still coming, promise); and the 12th Doctor has Bill. Every Doctor, or nearly every Doctor, has their perfect companion, and they all have one thing in common: they deviate from the norm. Sarah Jane was a professional woman with the competence to match the Doctor's; Bill's boundless curiosity was a perfect foil to the Doctor's paternal teacher persona; and Evelyn's experience and optimism perfectly grounded the bombastic, sometimes cynical Doctor while sharing his compassion. Whereas the normal companion is something of a default state. You know who I'm talking about: a pretty young woman, largely inexperienced but eager, smart enough to keep up with the Doctor, but never threatens to show him up. And you can probably guess where I'm coming with this: the 8th Doctor has had a lot of companions over the years, but very of them really deviate from that default archetype, and of those that do, none stick around long. Just to list them all out, we have: - Bliss
- C'Rizz
- Liv Chenka
- Tamsin Drew
- Grace Halloway
- Lucie Miller
- Molly O'Sullivan
- Charlotte Pollard
- Mary Shelley
- Helen Sinclair
I can't really think of any one companion as being the "definitive" companion to the 8th Doctor, but when I think about the one who comes the closest to that? It's probably Liv Chenka, because she breaks from the default to a greater extent than the others: while it doesn't come up often, she does have professional qualifications as a medtech, and where other companions are more eager and optimistic about their adventures, Liv isn't exactly cynical... but her approach is much more subdued. She knows who she is, and what she wants, and this allows her relationship to the Doctor to work on more equal terms.
So... I don't really have much here other than scattered thoughts, but I'm curious what y'all think. What do you think is the biggest weakness of the 8th Doctor audios? What do you think of his companions? And, if applicable, what would you like to see change in the future to rectify that perceived weakness?
TBH the whole reason I wrote all this up is because I thought to myself, in the wake of 8DTW4's release, "What do I want to see from future 8th Doctor stories," and my immediate thought was, "a new companion." Which is kind of a weird thought to have, you know? The 8th Doctor has already had so many companions.
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Post by theillusiveman on Sept 20, 2020 4:20:44 GMT
Companion wise I’d say the definitive companion for 8 Is lucie Miller in terms of chemistry and opposite personalities Similar to the 10th Doctor and Donna they spark well together Secondly companion wise was Fitz from The Company of friends Who isn’t mentioned here but I think the bromance between the two in the audio was great even better in the EDA books
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Post by theillusiveman on Sept 20, 2020 4:45:43 GMT
Weaknesses hmm
Companions wise:
Liv Chenka- honestly I found Liv to be incredibly unlikeable to the point that I was hoping they would kill her off in Ravenous as she is boring, sarcastic and overused since Dark Eyes 2
Helen- Honestly I thought she was created because Paul wanted to work with her voice actress and I don’t Have strong feelings about her character she is okay not great but not bad feels like she is there as the Nyssa to Liv’s Tegan
Bliss- bland and completely forgettable, the actress does what she can and to be honest the latest boxset she has gotten better
Crizz- a third wheel to Charley & 8 and couldn’t care less about him doesn’t help that most of his stories are bland and awful
Story wise:
The time war range- with the exception of The War Valeyard and Volume 4 the range is nothing to write home about, it feels generic and with 8’s characterisation (especially in the conscript) makes it feel extremely limited but to be fair Steven Moffat and Night of the Doctor pretty much killed any investment I could have for this range and for 8 but I am excited for volume 5 given volume 4’s ending so i will still stick with it for now
Stranded- still stuck with the same companions for the past two ranges I wasn’t impressed with, 8 once finds himself for the 3rd time stranded without the tardis I mean I applaud big finish for trying to do something different but the characters I couldn’t care less about hell I’m not even going to bother with 2-4 unless there is a character or something to make me want to get invested about
Honestly I just want a fresh start like dark eyes 1 or blood of the daleks
A new companion and format would be great
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Post by Digi on Sept 20, 2020 5:24:45 GMT
I was thinking lately about who each Doctor's "definitive" companions are, and why. The 2nd Doctor has Jaime; the 4th Doctor has Sarah Jane; the 6th Doctor has Evelyn (whose appreciation thread is still coming, promise); and the 12th Doctor has Bill. Every Doctor, or nearly every Doctor, has their perfect companion, and they all have one thing in common: they deviate from the norm. ... I can't really think of any one companion as being the "definitive" companion to the 8th Doctor I think the issue here (and I do mean issue, not problem) is that Paul's Doctor is somewhat unique and removed from the other Doctors. We as an audience tend to think of Doctor Who as a series in a very particular way, namely exactly what you're writing -- that this is the series Doctor Who and within Doctor Who this is the Jon Pertwee era, this is the Tom Baker era, this is the Peter Davison era, etc. But because Paul only ever had a TV movie, he never had an 'era' of his own. So I kind of see Paul's tenure as almost a kind of meta-riff on that traditional understanding of Doctor Who; so with Big Finish it's a little like this is the Eighth Doctor series, and within that we have the Mary Shelly era, the Charley era, the Lucie era, etc. Weaknesses hmm Companions wise: Liv Chenka- honestly I found Liv to be incredibly unlikeable to the point that I was hoping they would kill her off in Ravenous as she is boring, sarcastic and overused since Dark Eyes 2 Helen- Honestly I thought she was created because Paul wanted to work with her voice actress and I don’t Have strong feelings about her character she is okay not great but not bad feels like she is there as the Nyssa to Liv’s Tegan Bliss- bland and completely forgettable, the actress does what she can and to be honest the latest boxset she has gotten better Crizz- a third wheel to Charley & 8 and couldn’t care less about him doesn’t help that most of his stories are bland and awful Story wise: The time war range- with the exception of The War Valeyard and Volume 4 the range is nothing to write home about, it feels generic and with 8’s characterisation (especially in the conscript) makes it feel extremely limited but to be fair Steven Moffat and Night of the Doctor pretty much killed any investment I could have for this range and for 8 but I am excited for volume 5 given volume 4’s ending so i will still stick with it for now Stranded- still stuck with the same companions for the past two ranges I wasn’t impressed with, 8 once finds himself for the 3rd time stranded without the tardis I mean I applaud big finish for trying to do something different but the characters I couldn’t care less about hell I’m not even going to bother with 2-4 unless there is a character or something to make me want to get invested about Honestly I just want a fresh start like dark eyes 1 or blood of the daleks A new companion and format would be great Lol I disagree with nearly every single thing in this post
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Post by constonks on Sept 20, 2020 5:26:35 GMT
To me the Eighth Doctor's definitive companion is Charley, but I get why people would say Lucie as well. Charley fit the sweeping, romantic TVM Eight so well, whereas Lucie fits the newer, more cynical and sarcastic BF Eight in the same way. I guess both of them echo his characteristics rather than go against them. More compliment than contrast.
Thinking about that, the Eighth Doctor is an optimist who is very often forced into pessimism, bounding with energy. Maybe what he needs next is a companion without quips and confidence - someone who needs to be coaxed into positivity.
Actually, one of my favourite Eighth Doctor stories is a comic with Izzy - she's suffered a horrible fate in the previous issue and is, well... changed by it. The Doctor finds her in the TARDIS and tries to talk her out of her depression. That could be an angle worth hearing...
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Post by Kestrel on Sept 20, 2020 6:21:10 GMT
Also, crap, I forgot to mention: let's also not forget how awesome new companion introduction stories can be, and it's been a very long time since The Red Lady. Thinking about that, the Eighth Doctor is an optimist who is very often forced into pessimism, bounding with energy. Maybe what he needs next is a companion without quips and confidence - someone who needs to be coaxed into positivity. That's an excellent way to put it! I wonder, where do you think a companion like that would best fit in 8's character arc? The obvious openings (assuming no timey-wimey shenanigans like they do with the Classic Doctors) would be either post-Liv/Helen, or post-Bliss. I can definitely see the how either placement could work: in the former, you'd get 8 forced into a more positive/upbeat role immediately before everything gets much darker for him in the Time War; but with the latter, you could get him doing his best to introduce that positivity in much darker situations--and what could be more in-character for the 8th Doctor than trying to restore the "light" to someone traumatized by the war his people are raging?
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Sept 20, 2020 6:54:58 GMT
I can't say I agree with the premise of this thread as I like all his Big Finish companions, but as far as I'm concerned, the Eighth Doctor's definitive companion is Fitz Kreiner. I would kill for a boxset with him, adaptations of the EDAs or original stories. Or a new Eighth Doctor novel with him in it.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 20, 2020 8:45:27 GMT
Well, I think we might get 20 opinions for every 10 people who answer here. My first thought when I saw the thread title- Amnesia! As for my personal taste, I just do not click with neither Lucie or Fitz (neither novel nor audio). At all. Both of them just rub me completely the wrong way. But I think Liv Chenka is one of the greatest companions in the whole of Big Finish. I love her to bits. That out of the way... for me, the "happy go lucky" Doctor got old and boring pretty quick. This might also have to do with McGann losing interest in this, also, and it shows in his performance. But then Dark Eyes happened and you can just hear how much McGann loved this. I think with him in particular, it can be very obvious if he is enjoying himself or not. He is not Colin Baker who powers through and elevates even the biggest cattle droppings. So one of the weaknesses (if you want to call it that) of the 8th Doctor is certainly the actor. However, when McGann enjoys himself, the result can be absolutely stunning, shocking and nerve-wracking, something even Colin cannot do (and I admire Colin). Just look at the likes of Scherzo, Natural History of Fear or Lies in Ruins. Lies In Ruins shocked me so much, I could not sleep for 2 days. I personally think 8 works best in desperate situations and as a darker, grumpier character- simply for the reason that McGann brings so much more life to these characteristics (and he himself says on several of the extras that he likes the darker stories much more). Also, in direct comparison (and we actually have that, thanks to BF, just listen to Caerdroia!) the nasty dark Doctor just goes under your skin. While the happy go lucky one just makes me shake my head. Dark Eyes made me a fan of BF, mainly thanks to McGanns performance in it. I knew some of the Charley adventures before that, and never was a friend of Lucie, but Dark Eyes blew my mind. I think this is also why Liv Chenka works so well with 8- because she is able to kick his butt when he slips into too much doom and gloom and she is the one who reminds him to never ever give up.
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Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Sept 20, 2020 13:34:44 GMT
Charlie: her innocence matches his enthusiasm beautifully, but he tempers his with experience whereas Charlie blunders in with optimism blazing hopelessly.
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Post by fingersmash on Sept 20, 2020 15:05:33 GMT
Weaknesses hmm Companions wise: Liv Chenka- honestly I found Liv to be incredibly unlikeable to the point that I was hoping they would kill her off in Ravenous as she is boring, sarcastic and overused since Dark Eyes 2
Helen- Honestly I thought she was created because Paul wanted to work with her voice actress and I don’t Have strong feelings about her character she is okay not great but not bad feels like she is there as the Nyssa to Liv’s Tegan Bliss- bland and completely forgettable, the actress does what she can and to be honest the latest boxset she has gotten better Crizz- a third wheel to Charley & 8 and couldn’t care less about him doesn’t help that most of his stories are bland and awful Story wise: The time war range- with the exception of The War Valeyard and Volume 4 the range is nothing to write home about, it feels generic and with 8’s characterisation (especially in the conscript) makes it feel extremely limited but to be fair Steven Moffat and Night of the Doctor pretty much killed any investment I could have for this range and for 8 but I am excited for volume 5 given volume 4’s ending so i will still stick with it for now Stranded- still stuck with the same companions for the past two ranges I wasn’t impressed with, 8 once finds himself for the 3rd time stranded without the tardis I mean I applaud big finish for trying to do something different but the characters I couldn’t care less about hell I’m not even going to bother with 2-4 unless there is a character or something to make me want to get invested about Honestly I just want a fresh start like dark eyes 1 or blood of the daleks A new companion and format would be great I finally feel like I'm not alone in my dislike of Liv and Helen. Liv felt like she was all but set up to go in Ravenous, especially with what happened in Day of the Master and she could have had a really narratively satisfying departure by saving the day and sacrificing herself in the process. Helen just feels like a complete nonentity of a character and what little character moments she does get are consistently overpowered by Liv. The worst part is, I think Helen would be a top tier companion if she wasn't forced to be the third wheel. Helen always feels like more of a prop for other characters than her own character. It's never just Helen Sinclair or The Eighth Doctor and Helen Sinclair. It's Liv Chenka and Helen Sinclair or The Eleven and Helen Sinclair.
A new companion/team is top of my list with Eighth Doctor wants and right under it is a changeup to the format. I'm fine with Box Sets, I'm tired of 16 part epics. Do we really need 16 hours of a kitchen sink soap opera starring Eight, Liv, and Helen? Couldn't you tell that story in half the set?
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 20, 2020 22:27:50 GMT
I think the issue here (and I do mean issue, not problem) is that Paul's Doctor is somewhat unique and removed from the other Doctors. We as an audience tend to think of Doctor Who as a series in a very particular way, namely exactly what you're writing -- that this is the series Doctor Who and within Doctor Who this is the Jon Pertwee era, this is the Tom Baker era, this is the Peter Davison era, etc. But because Paul only ever had a TV movie, he never had an 'era' of his own. So I kind of see Paul's tenure as almost a kind of meta-riff on that traditional understanding of Doctor Who; so with Big Finish it's a little like this is the Eighth Doctor series, and within that we have the Mary Shelly era, the Charley era, the Lucie era, etc. I think that's a very good observation indeed. I think for me though the issue becomes the fact that Big Finish is usually all about revisiting eras, whereas the eras created by Big Finish seem to get left behind. Creating great companions and then never seeing them again sort of goes against my whole idea of what Big Finish is and does. I was very pleasantly surprised that The Further Adventures of Lucie Miller even happened, but it was truly a breath of fresh air for that reason alone. I can't really think of any one companion as being the "definitive" companion to the 8th Doctor, but when I think about the one who comes the closest to that? It's probably Liv Chenka, because she breaks from the default to a greater extent than the others: while it doesn't come up often, she does have professional qualifications as a medtech, and where other companions are more eager and optimistic about their adventures, Liv isn't exactly cynical... but her approach is much more subdued. She knows who she is, and what she wants, and this allows her relationship to the Doctor to work on more equal terms. I think this is also why Liv Chenka works so well with 8- because she is able to kick his butt when he slips into too much doom and gloom and she is the one who reminds him to never ever give up. I think these two posts do a great job capturing what is appealing about Liv, but on the other hand I can still also very much sympathize with the opinion that she does often come across as uncomfortably cynical or even that she's just been in too many stories non-stop. Really if someone asked, "Which companion do you think is best at cheering the Eight Doctor up?" it would still be Charley or Lucie before Liv and I think as things seem to get ever darker, that's probably important. I can also sympathize with the perspective that Helen's been very much overshadowed by Liv. Maybe it's not realistic on my part, but somehow it feels like even Bliss had gotten more character development than Helen even in all this time. It does seem kind of easy to ask why Helen is even there. Maybe Stranded will end up putting that to right somewhat, it actually is very nice that Liv is being afforded some character development by Stranded so far. I'm enjoying The Robots well enough so far - I think mainly because they're good stories - but nothing game-changing for me has happened with the character in as far as I've gotten with the series. I think if I had a much stronger sense of Liv being overused, though, it would only make things worse. Bliss I still don't quite know what to think of or why. Somehow the character still doesn't seem to stand out that much, which almost doesn't make any sense because a lot of memorable things have happened in the Time War set, but maybe she is like the default character described in the OP? Maybe I'm lacking a point of reference or something - somehow things seem as if they might be improving if I can think of her as a little bit Lucie and a little bit Zoe or that sort of thing, but that does also seem to hint that somehow she hasn't quite come across as a character in her own right. On the other hand, it works fine for me if Flip Jackson comes across as a Lucie sort of character. C'rizz is interesting - I think a number of important boxes were ticked: male companion, alien companion, likable enough and a good dynamic with other characters. I think of C'rizz and Charley on a good day as not far from the often enjoyable dynamic of Ace and Hex, but I think in the long run probably C'rizz was probably written more to be disposable than memorable? Charlie: her innocence matches his enthusiasm beautifully, but he tempers his with experience whereas Charlie blunders in with optimism blazing hopelessly. I think I'd have to go along with that - maybe also because in absence of further stories with Grace, Charley really is my first Eight Doctor companion, but I thought the "Edwardian Adventuress" aspect was great. Even with her novel temporal status, I like the idea of a companion who's actually looking for adventure rather than just getting caught up in events. For me that's probably a good break from the default character, and maybe that's what's helped Charley to emerge as something of a definitive companion for me. I do think she's worthy of her own series, which is not something I'd say about a lot of companions, even classic ones. I'm not really sure what direction I think things should go. Maybe it really would have been the right thing to do to come up with new companions a box set or two ago, but given the troubles with Helen and Bliss coming across as more memorable, I keep thinking what if they imported unlikely but already established characters, like characters from Torchwood - Gwen and Rhys, Martha Jones, even maybe a limited run with Captain Jack (shh, don't tell causality I said that, lol). Just a hint of Torchwood seemed like a very welcome thing to do with Stranded.
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Post by Kestrel on Sept 21, 2020 19:59:59 GMT
Ahahaha... I can't speak to Liv feeling "overused," though I haven't listened to the Robots sets yet, but I do think she's definitely been around long enough that it's probably time to start thinking about her leaving the TARDIS. She's definitely upstaged Helen a lot, which is unfortunate, because The Red Lady is one of my all-time favorite stories, and it was really the only time we really got to see Helen in an especially active role, demonstrating her expertise. The current TARDIS team feels very much like, "The Doctor and Liv Chenka, and also Helen is present." This is also true of Stranded, at least the first set, where the Doctor and Liv both have their own, indpendent adventures to get up to... and Helen is essentially stuck playing the housewife--a role that further dilutes her character as so much time needs to be spent establishing the peripheral cast. My first thought when I saw the thread title- Amnesia! Was his amnesia really a thing in the MR stories? I don't remember it as such, which is partly why I worded the premise as I did. The amnesia is... well, there's no getting around it, it's really, really stupid. Big Finish had a problem reconciling the continuity problems (they created) between the "Classic" era and the "New" era, and they solved that problem in the clumsiest, most hamfisted, and worst of all, impermanent fashion possible. I've said it before, I'll likely say it again: the perfect solution is and always has been quite obvious: the time war. They could have just said something in the Time War wound up scrambling all of the Doctor's memories. A convenient excuse for the Doctor to forget having met River Song before, or the War Master, or even Missy. Etc., etc. And they even had a very specific device to enable this in The Moment: Moffat literally created a reality-warping device in the TV show that could handily explain away any and all Big Finish-related continuity issues before and after its use.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 21, 2020 20:26:00 GMT
Ahahaha... I can't speak to Liv feeling "overused," though I haven't listened to the Robots sets yet, but I do think she's definitely been around long enough that it's probably time to start thinking about her leaving the TARDIS. She's definitely upstaged Helen a lot, which is unfortunate, because The Red Lady is one of my all-time favorite stories, and it was really the only time we really got to see Helen in an especially active role, demonstrating her expertise. The current TARDIS team feels very much like, "The Doctor and Liv Chenka, and also Helen is present." This is also true of Stranded, at least the first set, where the Doctor and Liv both have their own, indpendent adventures to get up to... and Helen is essentially stuck playing the housewife--a role that further dilutes her character as so much time needs to be spent establishing the peripheral cast. My first thought when I saw the thread title- Amnesia! Was his amnesia really a thing in the MR stories? I don't remember it as such, which is partly why I worded the premise as I did. The amnesia is... well, there's no getting around it, it's really, really stupid. Big Finish had a problem reconciling the continuity problems (they created) between the "Classic" era and the "New" era, and they solved that problem in the clumsiest, most hamfisted, and worst of all, impermanent fashion possible. I've said it before, I'll likely say it again: the perfect solution is and always has been quite obvious: the time war. They could have just said something in the Time War wound up scrambling all of the Doctor's memories. A convenient excuse for the Doctor to forget having met River Song before, or the War Master, or even Missy. Etc., etc. And they even had a very specific device to enable this in The Moment: Moffat literally created a reality-warping device in the TV show that could handily explain away any and all Big Finish-related continuity issues before and after its use. Uhm... at the top of my head, we had Minuet in Hell, Terror Firma, Something Inside, The Girl that Never Was... so it came up. A bit.
Yeah, I agree with you on the Time War.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 21, 2020 20:44:04 GMT
There should be an episode dedicated to Helen completing angry birds and eating macadamia nuts.
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Post by elkawho on Sept 22, 2020 1:11:42 GMT
I don't think the problem is that Helen hasn't had any character development. I think she's had quite a bit. She clashed with the museum's "Old White Men's Network" and left, went home to see her brother who hates her, she was able to calm The Eleven, she grows old in Ravenous, she is taking control at the Baker St. house in Stranded. It's not that she doesn't have character, but it's the fact that they made her NICE. It's terribly hard to take a NICE character and make her interesting. Which always bothers me, because I think I can relate to that. Liv upstages her because Liv goes after things, whether people like it or not. She makes enemies and doesn't care. Helen is always thinking about the other guy. Always thinking about how she can make it better while ruffling as few feathers as possible. That's not exciting, it might not even be interesting, but it is real.
I don't believe the "happy go lucky" Doctor is boring. The Doctor WANTS to be happy. He want's to travel the cosmos and show his companion how wonderful it all is. That is why I love Lucie. They are both characters with darker sides and using their travels as a way to keep each other entertained. They end up loving (not in a romantic way) and valuing each other, which is why Lucie's arc is so devastating.
Ok, so this is the Eight's Biggest Weakness thread, not his Best Companions thread. So what do I think is his biggest weakness? His constant search for hope. It's his belief in that elusive concept that is his undoing over and over. He has gained and lost more companions than any other Doctor because of it. He almost lost it when Lucie and Alex died, but he didn't. And that is the problem, his biggest weakness is also his biggest strength. And that is what makes him the interesting and tragic character that he is. His mission to stay out of the Time War is full of hope that he can find another way to help. And when he loses his hope, that's when he gives in and regenerates into War.
The War Doctor isn't forgotten because of his actions during the Time War. It's because he's the regeneration that lost hope and gave in.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2020 2:23:14 GMT
I don't think the problem is that Helen hasn't had any character development. I think she's had quite a bit. She clashed with the museum's "Old White Men's Network" and left, went home to see her brother who hates her, she was able to calm The Eleven, she grows old in Ravenous, she is taking control at the Baker St. house in Stranded. It's not that she doesn't have character, but it's the fact that they made her NICE. It's terribly hard to take a NICE character and make her interesting. Which always bothers me, because I think I can relate to that. Liv upstages her because Liv goes after things, whether people like it or not. She makes enemies and doesn't care. Helen is always thinking about the other guy. Always thinking about how she can make it better while ruffling as few feathers as possible. That's not exciting, it might not even be interesting, but it is real. [...] I think a common mistake made when compositing characters is putting the cart before the horse for personality traits like nice. It's very similar to saying, "Okay, I want a sad character." What makes that person sad? What makes them nice? Ian, Jamie, Jo, Nyssa and Mel are all prominently nice characters, but the manner and experiences that each of them have to bring out those traits are radically different from one another. Nice doesn't necessarily mean they lack their own inner demons. Nyssa, for instance, had her whole world and everything she knew annihilated before her eyes. Her parents destroyed. She has a lot of emotional baggage 1, but the way she deals with it is quite different from Adric, Tegan, Turlough or even the Doctor 2. (1 - I will say that Chris probably helped a bit by telling her about the planet Serenity's survival in Cold Fusion.)
(2 - Something I noticed recently: Everyone in that initial Season 19 TARDIS crew has lost family. Adric lost Vash, Tegan lost Vanessa, Nyssa lost Tremas and Kassia, and the Doctor lost a possible spouse in Patience.)
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Post by Kestrel on Sept 24, 2020 5:28:53 GMT
That's true, to a point, but I think Helen's "niceness" isn't so much a causal factor as it is a symptom of Liv's popularity. I think the writers have deliberately altered Helen's character to better complement Liv, by giving Helen traits that are the inverse of Liv's. In other words, she's nice because Liv's not.
Thinking back to the (fantastic) The Red Lady, Helen wasn't initially much of a "nice" person--quite the opposite. Theoretically we could maybe justify Helen's "nice" disposition as a defense mechanism she nurtured in order to to advance her career in a male-dominated and (does it go without saying?) misogynistic field... except when we first see Helen, working in that field, she's not nice. She's kind of abrasive, prideful, and extremely outspoken. It's immediately clear that she earned her position at the museum simply for being that good. A result of hypercompetence, Not charm. The story does a great job of characterizing Helen as such, as well as neatly demonstrating her more appealing attributes (EG she's used to being the smartest person in the room, but quickly recognizes when she's out of her depth and defers to the Doctor's expertise).
Honestly, she reminds me a lot of Hex. I don't think I've commented here on my recent listen-through of the MR's "Hex Arc," but in short, there, I was left underwhelmed. Specifically because I felt Hex was under-served by his stories, in a very similar way to Helen. In both cases, we have fairly by-the-numbers companions without any real rough edges personality-wise, whose best stories come when they can make use of their professional expertise, affording them greater narrative agency (the aforementioned The Red Lady and The Angel of Scutari). The rest of the time, they're spent playing second-fiddle to both the Doctor and the "primary" companion--Liv and Ace respectively.
Also this seems like a good time, so I'll be renaming the thread now.
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Post by fingersmash on Sept 27, 2020 15:50:55 GMT
That's true, to a point, but I think Helen's "niceness" isn't so much a causal factor as it is a symptom of Liv's popularity. I think the writers have deliberately altered Helen's character to better complement Liv, by giving Helen traits that are the inverse of Liv's. In other words, she's nice because Liv's not. Thinking back to the (fantastic) The Red Lady, Helen wasn't initially much of a "nice" person--quite the opposite. Theoretically we could maybe justify Helen's "nice" disposition as a defense mechanism she nurtured in order to to advance her career in a male-dominated and (does it go without saying?) misogynistic field... except when we first see Helen, working in that field, she's not nice. She's kind of abrasive, prideful, and extremely outspoken. It's immediately clear that she earned her position at the museum simply for being that good. A result of hypercompetence, Not charm. The story does a great job of characterizing Helen as such, as well as neatly demonstrating her more appealing attributes (EG she's used to being the smartest person in the room, but quickly recognizes when she's out of her depth and defers to the Doctor's expertise). Honestly, she reminds me a lot of Hex. I don't think I've commented here on my recent listen-through of the MR's "Hex Arc," but in short, there, I was left underwhelmed. Specifically because I felt Hex was under-served by his stories, in a very similar way to Helen. In both cases, we have fairly by-the-numbers companions without any real rough edges personality-wise, whose best stories come when they can make use of their professional expertise, affording them greater narrative agency (the aforementioned The Red Lady and The Angel of Scutari). The rest of the time, they're spent playing second-fiddle to both the Doctor and the "primary" companion--Liv and Ace respectively.
Also this seems like a good time, so I'll be renaming the thread now. I think Hex is better served than Helen though simply by nature of the 2 hour format, having his personal twist on the typical companion format (a male nurse from the near future, which is alter brought back with Rory when you think about it) and that Ace, while being a strong presence, is so clearly defined as a character at that point that she and Hex compliment rather than take away from each other. I think there's such an eagerness to explore Liv that Helen gets left to the background because they really don't compliment each other in the same way that Ace and Hex or even Steven and Sara Kingdom or Sarah Jane and Harry Sullivan do. It's the same problem we've had with Ryan, Graham, and Yaz: they don't all compliment each other so the team doesn't form the cohesive whole it needs to. Helen could have been the trigger to get some of that Tigger Eight that's been missing from the boxset era when we've really been stuck with the Eeyore side that Liv facilitates but it doesn't happen because Liv seems to just overpower Helen's character instead of them complimenting each other.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 27, 2020 16:16:58 GMT
I kind of get all the critisism levelled against Helen... she still gets some great moments to shine. She carries the story with the Eleven when locked up with the Candyman and even figures out how to fly the TARDIS in the second Ravenous set. That Christmas story basically had her as the star because she figured out the solution. I think the issue is, Helen is used as some kind of anchor to the "real" world. This is exemplified in Stranded where she is "the closest thing to a native". While the Doctor and Liv are "space-people", she is a "normal" human closest to our own reality. This could be used as a bridge for the audience, but I think it has been handled clumsily. Rather and being an asset, it kind of holds the character back. In Stranded, her role is vital, but pointing this out by Liv and the Doctor also highlights that flaw even more. Stranded is maybe a very good place to examine this- no wonder it feels so jarring for quite a few people. After all, Doctor Who is all about "space men", and just having normal people doing normal things is going to make them fade into the background. I think the intention is there to use her the right way, but it seems not quite clear how to do it. It is a bit like Yaz and her police training- only in the last few episodes of series 12, Yaz is taking more charge and is growing into the niche she is supposed to occupy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 18:25:20 GMT
I kind of get all the critisism levelled against Helen... she still gets some great moments to shine. She carries the story with the Eleven when locked up with the Candyman and even figures out how to fly the TARDIS in the second Ravenous set. That Christmas story basically had her as the star because she figured out the solution. I think the issue is, Helen is used as some kind of anchor to the "real" world. This is exemplified in Stranded where she is "the closest thing to a native". While the Doctor and Liv are "space-people", she is a "normal" human closest to our own reality. This could be used as a bridge for the audience, but I think it has been handled clumsily. Rather and being an asset, it kind of holds the character back. In Stranded, her role is vital, but pointing this out by Liv and the Doctor also highlights that flaw even more. Stranded is maybe a very good place to examine this- no wonder it feels so jarring for quite a few people. After all, Doctor Who is all about "space men", and just having normal people doing normal things is going to make them fade into the background. I think the intention is there to use her the right way, but it seems not quite clear how to do it. It is a bit like Yaz and her police training- only in the last few episodes of series 12, Yaz is taking more charge and is growing into the niche she is supposed to occupy. Helen to me is the ideal companion and for me has eclipsed Liz she is the closest thing as to be identifiable to me am not super intelligent or a space surgeon or have any idea of quantum physics,I mean look how great her and Missy were together,so why not her and MCGANN we still have a gap of when Liv was on Kaldor so,it would be interesting to know how her and McGann got on on their solo adventures
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