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Post by timegirl on Sept 27, 2020 15:14:03 GMT
So I was thinking, there are a lot of flawed stories I like better for various reasons than some episodes that are objectively better or have better reputations.
For example:
I prefer Deep Breath over Eleventh Hour. I do think that Eleventh Hour is more streamlined structurally and has less flaws, but Deep Breath sets both my brain and heart on fire more. Other than the lovely opening scene of Eleventh Hour with 11 and Amelia, the rest of the episode is just a better than average monster of the week runaround. Deep Breath while not perfect, has a lot more in-depth psychology of post regeneration and has constant humor and heartbreak that really makes me feel for 12.
What are some episodes/stories you know are flawed that you prefer over objectively better or less flawed episodes/stories?
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 27, 2020 16:06:09 GMT
First one coming to mind and most prominent one might be the Two Doctors.
I just love it.
The plot is complete rubbish and makes no sense, but you can just see how much everybody is enjoying themselves acting out all the rubbish, it carries so many good vibes they practically ooze out of the screen. Even listening to the audio commentary is just fun.
I get so much more out of watching this than I get from the Three Doctors or the Five Doctors.
It cheers me up every time.
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Post by timegirl on Sept 27, 2020 16:13:25 GMT
First one coming to mind and most prominent one might be the Two Doctors. I just love it. The plot is complete rubbish and makes no sense, but you can just see how much everybody is enjoying themselves acting out all the rubbish, it carries so many good vibes they practically ooze out of the screen. Even listening to the audio commentary is just fun. I get so much more out of watching this than I get from the Three Doctors or the Five Doctors. It cheers me up every time. Same here!😁 |
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Post by timegirl on Sept 30, 2020 13:36:21 GMT
Other flawed episodes I enjoy are:
The Web Planet,
Vengeance on Veros,
Revelation of the Daleks,
Delta and the Bannermen,
Paradise Towers,
The Happiness Patrol,
The Doctor Who TV movie,
Love and Monsters,
Fear Her,
End of Time
Night Terrors,
The Power of Three,
Asylum of the Daleks,
Robots of Sherwood,
The Care Taker,
Kill the Moon,
Last Christmas,
The Magician’s Apprentice/ Witch’s Familiar,
Hell Bent,
Twice upon a Time,
It Takes You Away,
Fugitive of the Judoon
Timeless Children
I also just discovered despite all the supporting cast’ wooden acting and dodgy production values I actually really like The Twin Dilemma. It’s like a proto-“Deep Breath” the way it handles post regeneration trauma! I think if they had just cut the infamous strangulation scene this story would be looked at a lot more fondly. The post regeneration stuff is actually really compelling and feels really ahead of it’s time(very New Who) in the way it goes into the psychology of the trauma.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 14:08:14 GMT
I have a real liking for The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos. The last three stories from Series 11 are wonderful, I think, but this one gets talked about less than the others. It's not perfect, and ity might not be the end-of-series finale some were hoping for, but as a small-scale tale of revenge and recriminations, it works very well indeed. Nice to see Tim Shaw get some final come-uppance, and the TARDIS team finally, peoperly come together (even if Graham isn't entirely honest with the Doctor at one point!). Also, it looks great.
There quite a few instances of flawed stories being better than more highly-regarded ones, but of course it comes down to personal opinion. For example, my honest feeling is that Talons of Weng Chiang - without doubt a beautiful tale - loses its momentum during that last episode and features a villain more ham than Kalid from Time Flight. And the extraordinary Seeds of Doom features a climax featuring UNIT blowing up the enemy, when previously that same story that Doctor had said such a thing would cause more problems than it would cure.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 14:12:29 GMT
Other flawed episodes I enjoy are: The Web Planet, Vengeance on Veros, Revelation of the Daleks, Delta and the Bannermen, Paradise Towers, The Happiness Patrol, The Doctor Who TV movie, Love and Monsters, Fear Her, End of Time Night Terrors, The Power of Three, Asylum of the Daleks, Robots of Sherwood, The Care Taker, Kill the Moon, Last Christmas, The Magician’s Apprentice/ Witch’s Familiar, Hell Bent, Twice upon a Time, It Takes You Away, Fugitive of the Judoon Timeless Children I also just discovered despite all the supporting cast’ wooden acting and dodgy production values I actually really like The Twin Dilemma. It’s like a proto-“Deep Breath” the way it handles post regeneration trauma! I think if they had just cut the infamous strangulation scene this story would be looked at a lot more fondly. The post regeneration stuff is actually really compelling and feels really ahead of it’s time(very New Who) in the way it goes into the psychology of the trauma. From that excellent list, The Happiness Patrol leaps out at me as the perfect example. There are those who complain the setting isn't realistic, and the Kandyman is too silly. Yet, surely the point is that the setting is deliberately unrealistic - almost entirely superficial, in fact. And the Kandyman comes straight out of a child's nightmare. Genuinely terrifying. A petulant, screaming infant genius in the body of living sugar and spice and all things nice! If that story had been filmed in black and white, and given a 'noir' style (as was originally discussed), we'd still be having nightmares about the Kandyman to this day (well, I would)! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 15:08:58 GMT
I love THE HAPPINESS PATROL-it was bold it was different-
KILL THE MOON-well if it’s an alternate universe it’s fine lol
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Post by constonks on Sept 30, 2020 16:39:02 GMT
Before I read Placebo Effect - which features both Wirrn and Foamasi - I rewatched The Ark in Space and The Leisure Hive. Guess which one I enjoyed more?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 16:43:29 GMT
... and of course, Meglos is an underrated classic. But everyone secretly knows that. Don't they? (I'm not joking - I love the story and can never understand the flak it gets  )
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Post by timegirl on Sept 30, 2020 16:52:51 GMT
Other flawed episodes I enjoy are: The Web Planet, Vengeance on Veros, Revelation of the Daleks, Delta and the Bannermen, Paradise Towers, The Happiness Patrol, The Doctor Who TV movie, Love and Monsters, Fear Her, End of Time Night Terrors, The Power of Three, Asylum of the Daleks, Robots of Sherwood, The Care Taker, Kill the Moon, Last Christmas, The Magician’s Apprentice/ Witch’s Familiar, Hell Bent, Twice upon a Time, It Takes You Away, Fugitive of the Judoon Timeless Children I also just discovered despite all the supporting cast’ wooden acting and dodgy production values I actually really like The Twin Dilemma. It’s like a proto-“Deep Breath” the way it handles post regeneration trauma! I think if they had just cut the infamous strangulation scene this story would be looked at a lot more fondly. The post regeneration stuff is actually really compelling and feels really ahead of it’s time(very New Who) in the way it goes into the psychology of the trauma. From that excellent list, The Happiness Patrol leaps out at me as the perfect example. There are those who complain the setting isn't realistic, and the Kandyman is too silly. Yet, surely the point is that the setting is deliberately unrealistic - almost entirely superficial, in fact. And the Kandyman comes straight out of a child's nightmare. Genuinely terrifying. A petulant, screaming infant genius in the body of living sugar and spice and all things nice! If that story had been filmed in black and white, and given a 'noir' style (as was originally discussed), we'd still be having nightmares about the Kandyman to this day (well, I would)! Happiness Patrol is brilliant! I know they brought him back for BF but it would be cool if Kandyman got brought back and reimagined for New Who! They could reintroduce him an episode that was a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory homage🤔 |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 17:05:37 GMT
From that excellent list, The Happiness Patrol leaps out at me as the perfect example. There are those who complain the setting isn't realistic, and the Kandyman is too silly. Yet, surely the point is that the setting is deliberately unrealistic - almost entirely superficial, in fact. And the Kandyman comes straight out of a child's nightmare. Genuinely terrifying. A petulant, screaming infant genius in the body of living sugar and spice and all things nice! If that story had been filmed in black and white, and given a 'noir' style (as was originally discussed), we'd still be having nightmares about the Kandyman to this day (well, I would)! Happiness Patrol is brilliant! I know they brought him back for BF but it would be cool if Kandyman got brought back and reimagined for New Who! They could reintroduce him an episode that was a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory homage🤔 Can you imagine that design, created with more modern prosthetics, looming out of dry ice and carefully lit shadow - those firework eyes spinning furiously? I'm not sure I would sleep soundly that night. He might have run foul of Bertie Bassett - 'TM' - but The Kandyman was a wonderful creation. |
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Post by timegirl on Sept 30, 2020 17:09:37 GMT
Happiness Patrol is brilliant! I know they brought him back for BF but it would be cool if Kandyman got brought back and reimagined for New Who! They could reintroduce him an episode that was a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory homage🤔 Can you imagine that design, created with more modern prosthetics, looming out of dry ice and carefully lit shadow - those firework eyes spinning furiously? I'm not sure I would sleep soundly that night. He might have run foul of Bertie Bassett - 'TM' - but The Kandyman was a wonderful creation. Ahh😱 |
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Post by polly on Sept 30, 2020 20:48:42 GMT
Personally, I think beyond a basic level of technical competence, there's not really an objective good since we all bring our own tastes and interpretations to the table. But that's another subject.
I quite like The Smugglers. It's a black and white historical and it has pirates. It's also one of the few Ben and Polly stories without Jamie. Yet, it never gets its due.
Invasion of Time is another one. It's far from perfect, but the Sontarans invading Gallifrey makes for a pretty good season finale, if you ask me. I'm also quite biased as a Leela fan.
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Post by timegirl on Sept 30, 2020 20:52:16 GMT
Personally, I think beyond a basic level of technical competence, there's not really an objective good since we all bring our own tastes and interpretations to the table. But that's another subject. I quite like The Smugglers. It's a black and white historical and it has pirates. It's also one of the few Ben and Polly stories without Jamie. Yet, it never gets its due. Invasion of Time is another one. It's far from perfect, but the Sontarans invading Gallifrey makes for a pretty good season finale, if you ask me. I'm also quite biased as a Leela fan. That’s a very good point you have! One person’s favorite episode ever could be another person’s least favorite and vice versa. I haven’t seen the smugglers!🤔😀 |
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Post by polly on Sept 30, 2020 20:59:05 GMT
That’s a very good point you have! One person’s favorite episode ever could be another person’s least favorite and vice versa. I haven’t seen the smugglers!🤔😀 Well, if it sounds appealing I'd certainly recommend it if you can fish up a reconstruction or the narrated audio. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 22:45:05 GMT
That’s a very good point you have! One person’s favorite episode ever could be another person’s least favorite and vice versa. I haven’t seen the smugglers!🤔😀 Well, if it sounds appealing I'd certainly recommend it if you can fish up a reconstruction or the narrated audio. (Loose Cannon's is really good if you can find it.) As a bonus, The Smugglers is also written by Brian Hayles who is probably more well-known for writing the two Ice Warrior stories for Patrick Troughton and the two Peladon stories for Jon Pertwee. |
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Post by timegirl on Sept 30, 2020 22:56:24 GMT
Well, if it sounds appealing I'd certainly recommend it if you can fish up a reconstruction or the narrated audio. (Loose Cannon's is really good if you can find it.) As a bonus, The Smugglers is also written by Brian Hayles who is probably more well-known for writing the two Ice Warrior stories for Patrick Troughton and the two Peladon stories for Jon Pertwee. I haven’t tried loose canon before, is it the one with the telasnaps? |
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Post by polly on Sept 30, 2020 23:04:03 GMT
(Loose Cannon's is really good if you can find it.) As a bonus, The Smugglers is also written by Brian Hayles who is probably more well-known for writing the two Ice Warrior stories for Patrick Troughton and the two Peladon stories for Jon Pertwee. I haven’t tried loose canon before, is it the one with the telasnaps? That's the ones, yes. They use whatever material is available really, telesnaps, existing clips, sometimes new CGI or small, newly filmed inserts. They're very well done considering what they have to work with. They've done one for every missing story, though a number of them have been supplanted by the official animations and so forth. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 23:16:58 GMT
(Loose Cannon's is really good if you can find it.) As a bonus, The Smugglers is also written by Brian Hayles who is probably more well-known for writing the two Ice Warrior stories for Patrick Troughton and the two Peladon stories for Jon Pertwee. I haven’t tried loose canon before, is it the one with the telasnaps? That's them.  It's not just telesnaps either, there's much more to them than a straightforward slideshow of photographs. Some stories have scenes reproduced in CGI for full-motion animations, others have completely reconstructed model work, and there are even some stories that have reshot scenes on location with full-sized props ( The Evil of the Daleks, for instance, has both a Dalek and Victoria Waterfield in the home they used in that story). Each story has its own unique bonus too, like Marco Polo is the only reconstruction that they did where they produced a version of it in colour. They're well worth the look.  |
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Post by timegirl on Sept 30, 2020 23:19:32 GMT
I haven’t tried loose canon before, is it the one with the telasnaps? That's them. It's not just telesnaps either, there's much more to them than a straightforward slideshow of photographs. Some stories have scenes reproduced in CGI for full-motion animations, others have completely reconstructed model work, and there are even some stories that have reshot scenes on location with full-sized props ( The Evil of the Daleks, for instance, has both a Dalek and Victoria Waterfield in the home they used in that story). Each story has its own unique bonus too, like Marco Polo is the only reconstruction that they did where they produced a version of it in colour. They're well worth the look. Wow where do I find them? |
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It's not just telesnaps either, there's much more to them than a straightforward slideshow of photographs. Some stories have scenes reproduced in CGI for full-motion animations, others have completely reconstructed model work, and there are even some stories that have reshot scenes on location with full-sized props (The Evil of the Daleks, for instance, has both a Dalek and Victoria Waterfield in the home they used in that story).