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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 3:09:06 GMT
After rewatching Greatest Show in the Galaxy, I was thinking about how interesting it is when DW satires aspects of itself and the culture around its fandom. What are your opinions on when DW satires itself and the fandom culture around it? If given the opportunity, what aspect of DW would you like to see a satirical episode or story on?
Mine:
I think it’s something tricky to execute entirely successfully but can be rather satisfying when done well. I think Love and Monsters is an interesting flawed example that starts out as an affectionate take on DW fan groups and then further branches out into the subject of toxic fans, which is very well done up until the monster reveals his true form and things get too off the rails.
If given the opportunity I think there should be a DW story satirizing the concept of “ the heartthrob Doctor” but using an incarnation that would not immediately come to mind for that reputation normally.
What is your opinion on when DW satires it’s self and the fandom around it? If you could have DW satire any aspect of DW and/or the fandom surrounding it what would it be?
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Oct 14, 2020 10:12:02 GMT
I remember reading a story about Greatest Show in DWM not long after it was broadcast and the writer saying something along the lines that it was satirising a certain kind of fan and I - I was 18 or so at the time - thought, “Really? Were we watching the same show? It was very obvious a satirical take on the history of the show as well as the fan base. I really don’t like Greatest but I admire its stance.
Love and Monsters was much more successful, I thought, at skewering the concept of the show but I think that new fans may have been a bit bewildered by it. However, I also think the gag at the end was hilarious, so what would I know?
I think the show has always been prepared to mock itself to a certain extent: landing the TARDIS in an actual quarry in Hand Of Fear was a nice touch, as were the near-constant references to Davi Tennant’s hair throughout his tenure. I would love for a full-on skewering of the fan base but as it would be commercial suicide I don’t think we’re going to get it any time soon.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Oct 14, 2020 11:43:34 GMT
Hate it when the show attempts that, always comes across as cheesy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 13:26:06 GMT
Love and Monsters isn't my favourite story, but it satires Doctor Who fans beautifully. A group of people from all backgrounds, who have a common interest they pursue, causing no harm to anyone - and then someone comes along and changes things. In this case, it's a thong-wearing green creature who absorbs its victims, brilliantly played by Peter Kay. Was Victor Kennedy based on any notorious 'super-fan' we may or may not know? 'Course he was (IMO, of course), and it's all very well done if not providing Doctor Who's greatest story. Am I glad Love and Monsters was made? Definitely.
Greatest Show in the Galaxy is more successful in my view. As timegirl said in another thread, it satires several levels of Who at the time. The fans, the high-ups at the BBC and those on the peripheries who have never seen Doctor Who. It also provides a great story in its own right, with killer clowns, an all-seeing eye and Sylvester McCoy turned up to 11!
I'd love more of this kind of thing and would like it to go even further, but perhaps a family sci-fi/horror/drama/fantasy isn't the right place. Big Finish's own Torchwood range provided the truly excellent The Man Who Destroyed Torchwood by Guy Adams, which brutally deals with someone who uses the internet as his vocal platform. I know its not strictly Doctor Who, but it by far my favourite related piece of satire and works brilliantly well on many levels.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 13:57:17 GMT
Love and Monsters isn't my favourite story, but it satires Doctor Who fans beautifully. A group of people from all backgrounds, who have a common interest they pursue, causing no harm to anyone - and then someone comes along and changes things. In this case, it's a thong-wearing green creature who absorbs its victims, brilliantly played by Peter Kay. Was Victor Kennedy based on any notorious 'super-fan' we may or may not know? 'Course he was (IMO, of course), and it's all very well done if not providing Doctor Who's greatest story. Am I glad Love and Monsters was made? Definitely.
Greatest Show in the Galaxy is more successful in my view. As timegirl said in another thread, it satires several levels of Who at the time. The fans, the high-ups at the BBC and those on the peripheries who have never seen Doctor Who. It also provides a great story in its own right, with killer clowns, an all-seeing eye and Sylvester McCoy turned up to 11!
I'd love more of this kind of thing and would like it to go even further, but perhaps a family sci-fi/horror/drama/fantasy isn't the right place. Big Finish's own Torchwood range provided the truly excellent The Man Who Destroyed Torchwood by Guy Adams, which brutally deals with someone who uses the internet as his vocal platform. I know its not strictly Doctor Who, but it by far my favourite related piece of satire and works brilliantly well on many levels.
I have not experienced too much Torchwood but The Man Who Destroyed Torchwood does sound intriguing 🤔🙂 I too would like to see this kind of thing go even further. I think they could get away with pushing the satire even further with DW it just has to be carefully handled. I think if they pulled a Trogen Horse and caught people off guard with the satire they could get away with more satire of DW. Promise big things in the promotion of the episode/ story like epic battles, monsters, romance, musical numbers, beloved character returns, and then sneak the biting satire in. That way audiences don’t get scared away because they are already watching for those other things. Out of curiosity what aspects of satire of DW would you want pushed even further? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 14:28:46 GMT
Love and Monsters isn't my favourite story, but it satires Doctor Who fans beautifully. A group of people from all backgrounds, who have a common interest they pursue, causing no harm to anyone - and then someone comes along and changes things. In this case, it's a thong-wearing green creature who absorbs its victims, brilliantly played by Peter Kay. Was Victor Kennedy based on any notorious 'super-fan' we may or may not know? 'Course he was (IMO, of course), and it's all very well done if not providing Doctor Who's greatest story. Am I glad Love and Monsters was made? Definitely.
Greatest Show in the Galaxy is more successful in my view. As timegirl said in another thread, it satires several levels of Who at the time. The fans, the high-ups at the BBC and those on the peripheries who have never seen Doctor Who. It also provides a great story in its own right, with killer clowns, an all-seeing eye and Sylvester McCoy turned up to 11!
I'd love more of this kind of thing and would like it to go even further, but perhaps a family sci-fi/horror/drama/fantasy isn't the right place. Big Finish's own Torchwood range provided the truly excellent The Man Who Destroyed Torchwood by Guy Adams, which brutally deals with someone who uses the internet as his vocal platform. I know its not strictly Doctor Who, but it by far my favourite related piece of satire and works brilliantly well on many levels.
I have not experienced too much Torchwood but The Man Who Destroyed Torchwood does sound intriguing 🤔🙂 I too would like to see this kind of thing go even further. I think they could get away with pushing the satire even further with DW it just has to be carefully handled. I think if they pulled a Trogen Horse and caught people off guard with the satire they could get away with more satire of DW. Promise big things in the promotion of the episode/ story like epic battles, monsters, romance, musical numbers, beloved character returns, and then sneak the biting satire in. That way audiences don’t get scared away because they are already watching for those other things. Out of curiosity what aspects of satire of DW would you want pushed even further? Maybe something about how people become proprietorial about things they are fans of to such an extent that all reason goes out of the window. Their own obsessions becoming a physical form, rather like the virus in The Invisible Enemy becoming a rattling, gurgling evil. I love that kind of thing. Such extravagances would be far better handled by 'proper' Who writers rather than my sillinesses of course, but I would love to see more of it! |
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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 14:36:29 GMT
I have not experienced too much Torchwood but The Man Who Destroyed Torchwood does sound intriguing 🤔🙂 I too would like to see this kind of thing go even further. I think they could get away with pushing the satire even further with DW it just has to be carefully handled. I think if they pulled a Trogen Horse and caught people off guard with the satire they could get away with more satire of DW. Promise big things in the promotion of the episode/ story like epic battles, monsters, romance, musical numbers, beloved character returns, and then sneak the biting satire in. That way audiences don’t get scared away because they are already watching for those other things. Out of curiosity what aspects of satire of DW would you want pushed even further? Maybe something about how people become proprietorial about things they are fans of to such an extent that all reason goes out of the window. Their own obsessions becoming a physical form, rather like the virus in The Invisible Enemy becoming a rattling, gurgling evil. I love that kind of thing. Such extravagances would be far better handled by 'proper' Who writers rather than my sillinesses of course, but I would love to see more of it! Ooo I love that idea! 😀 I have a similar ideas about a “fan” trying to actually warp and and change the Doctor to their own ideals of how they think they should be rather than how they actually are. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 14:44:36 GMT
Maybe something about how people become proprietorial about things they are fans of to such an extent that all reason goes out of the window. Their own obsessions becoming a physical form, rather like the virus in The Invisible Enemy becoming a rattling, gurgling evil. I love that kind of thing. Such extravagances would be far better handled by 'proper' Who writers rather than my sillinesses of course, but I would love to see more of it! Ooo I love that idea! 😀 I have a similar ideas about a “fan” trying to actually warp and and change the Doctor to their own ideals of how they think they should be rather than how they actually are. I love it! And then these 'fans' could fight (behind a keyboard of course!) with others who *dare* to have different ideas about how 'their' Doctor should be. The Doctor could be split into various fragmented personalities, each with their own fanbase fantasists. We could be onto something here!  |
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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 14:57:44 GMT
Ooo I love that idea! 😀 I have a similar ideas about a “fan” trying to actually warp and and change the Doctor to their own ideals of how they think they should be rather than how they actually are. I love it! And then these 'fans' could fight (behind a keyboard of course!) with others who *dare* to have different ideas about how 'their' Doctor should be. The Doctor could be split into various fragmented personalities, each with their own fanbase fantasists. We could be onto something here! Interesting 🤔😁 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 15:00:27 GMT
I love it! And then these 'fans' could fight (behind a keyboard of course!) with others who *dare* to have different ideas about how 'their' Doctor should be. The Doctor could be split into various fragmented personalities, each with their own fanbase fantasists. We could be onto something here! Interesting 🤔😁 Haha, thank you! As I say, far better in the hands of others than me! |
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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 15:07:55 GMT
Haha, thank you! As I say, far better in the hands of others than me! Don’t sell yourself short you have some brilliant ideas!😊 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 15:11:16 GMT
Haha, thank you! As I say, far better in the hands of others than me! Don’t sell yourself short you have some brilliant ideas!😊 Aw, bless you!  |
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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 15:14:53 GMT
Don’t sell yourself short you have some brilliant ideas!😊 Aw, bless you! Thanks and you do!😊 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 15:54:59 GMT
I remember the DWM coverage after The Greatest Show in the Galaxy concerning the Whizz Kid. I have commented before on this forum and it seems not everyone recognises the caricature as being fair game. I recall one BF DW writer referred to him a while back online and there was some nudge, nudge commentary as to who it was allegedly based on (another well known name, but of non-fiction DW books). Big Finish has had its own satirical take on the 'Fandom Menace' in the character of Mervyn Stone, by Nev Fountain and featuring Nicola Bryant (natch): I found it to be a very funny listen, though I appreciate not all fans will see the funny side nor get the joke (oh dear). There are three books in the series too, which I can also recommend. Also, I am not sure whether anyone on the forum has done a Doctor Who Cruise, there was a very amusing and slightly excruciating satire of wilderness years fandom, for long gone Brit-Sci-Fi shows in general, called Cruise of the Gods, back in 2002. David Walliams was particularly creepy as the overly tactile fan/events organiser, whilst the way some former cast & crew members come to depend on the remembrances and attention of these small gatherings is quite recognisable to the point that a certain few actual former DW cast members come to mind, sadly... www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/the-mervyn-stone-mysteries-the-axeman-cometh-908 www.bigfinish.com/ranges/v/the-mervyn-stone-mysteries  |
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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 16:28:25 GMT
I remember the DWM coverage after The Greatest Show in the Galaxy concerning the Whizz Kid. I have commented before on this forum and it seems not everyone recognises the caricature as being fair game. I recall one BF DW writer referred to him a while back online and there was some nudge, nudge commentary as to who it was allegedly based on (another well known name, but of non-fiction DW books). Big Finish has had its own satirical take on the 'Fandom Menace' in the character of Mervyn Stone, by Nev Fountain and featuring Nicola Bryant (natch): I found it to be a very funny listen, though I appreciate not all fans will see the funny side nor get the joke (oh dear). There are three books in the series too, which I can also recommend. Also, I am not sure whether anyone on the forum has done a Doctor Who Cruise, there was a very amusing and slightly excruciating satire of wilderness years fandom, for long gone Brit-Sci-Fi shows in general, called Cruise of the Gods, back in 2002. David Walliams was particularly creepy as the overly tactile fan/events organiser, whilst the way some former cast & crew members come to depend on the remembrances and attention of these small gatherings is quite recognisable to the point that a certain few actual former DW cast members come to mind, sadly... www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/the-mervyn-stone-mysteries-the-axeman-cometh-908www.bigfinish.com/ranges/v/the-mervyn-stone-mysteriesOh my god! I love Cruise of the Gods! Such an underrated satire!😁 I watched it with my mom and aunt and we were all laughing so hard we were crying!🤣 It’s like the Galaxy Quest of Doctor Who! Haven’t heard of Myrven Stone before but sounds worth a try! |
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Post by polly on Oct 14, 2020 17:33:39 GMT
I think some self-parody is an acceptable indulgence once in a while, such as The One Doctor being a Christmas "treat." The franchise has certainly been around long enough to earn it.
But the trick is that poking fun at the fanbase or past adventures ought to be done with real affection. If the current writers simply want to denigrate past work, they can button their lip so far as I'm concerned.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 17:45:58 GMT
I think some self-parody is an acceptable indulgence once in a while, such as The One Doctor being a Christmas "treat." The franchise has certainly been around long enough to earn it. But the trick is that poking fun at the fanbase or past adventures ought to be done with real affection. If the current writers simply want to denigrate past work, they can button their lip so far as I'm concerned. I agree with this for sure! Some of the best satire comes from a place of affection and love for something! The one thing I do think is fair game in satire on DW without affection is toxic fandom the other aspects should be addressed affectionately though like you said. |
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Post by polly on Oct 14, 2020 19:23:33 GMT
I agree with this for sure! Some of the best satire comes from a place of affection and love for something! The one thing I do think is fair game in satire on DW without affection is toxic fandom the other aspects should be addressed affectionately though like you said. Quite honestly, I think that aspect should be left alone altogether. I find it unprofessional for creators to get into spats with the fans, either online or within the show itself, even if they are fans they don't like. It comes off as petty and completely unnecessary. |
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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 19:37:22 GMT
I agree with this for sure! Some of the best satire comes from a place of affection and love for something! The one thing I do think is fair game in satire on DW without affection is toxic fandom the other aspects should be addressed affectionately though like you said. Quite honestly, I think that aspect should be left alone altogether. I find it unprofessional for creators to get into spats with the fans, either online or within the show itself, even if they are fans they don't like. It comes off as petty and completely unnecessary. You do have a very good point, I just meant satire of the phenomenon of toxic fandom as a whole though. Like for instance the character of Victor Kennedy in Love and Monsters I think is fine use of satire. But I completely see where you are coming from, like we both said before when DW satires itself its a bit of a tricky balancing act. But I think in a way satire of toxic DW fandom if handled correctly could have a positive impact because it could be taken as a cautionary tale and put out a message to fans to avoid toxic behavior. But like I said, you do have a very good point. |
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Post by polly on Oct 14, 2020 23:20:10 GMT
You do have a very good point, I just meant satire of the phenomenon of toxic fandom as a whole though. Like for instance the character of Victor Kennedy in Love and Monsters I think is fine use of satire. But I completely see where you are coming from, like we both said before when DW satires itself its a bit of a tricky balancing act. But I think in a way satire of toxic DW fandom if handled correctly could have a positive impact because it could be taken as a cautionary tale and put out a message to fans to avoid toxic behavior. But like I said, you do have a very good point. Yeah, I mean I don't want to go talking in circles too much, but it really does depend on the intention. There are worlds of difference between a friendly joke and the wag of an admonishing finger. To give an extreme example, Aaron Sorkin once got into a heated discussion, shall we say, on the Television Without Pity forums. He was so wrapped up in this flame war that he wrote an entire episode of The West Wing wherein online devotees are portrayed as inappropriate loonies. Then on the other hand, you have Futurama's wonderful episode "Where No Fan Has Gone Before" which is both a pardoy of and love letter to Trekkies. All I'm saying is, don't be Aaron Sorkin. Be Futurama. |
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