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Post by timegirl on Oct 14, 2020 23:26:56 GMT
You do have a very good point, I just meant satire of the phenomenon of toxic fandom as a whole though. Like for instance the character of Victor Kennedy in Love and Monsters I think is fine use of satire. But I completely see where you are coming from, like we both said before when DW satires itself its a bit of a tricky balancing act. But I think in a way satire of toxic DW fandom if handled correctly could have a positive impact because it could be taken as a cautionary tale and put out a message to fans to avoid toxic behavior. But like I said, you do have a very good point. Yeah, I mean I don't want to go talking in circles too much, but it really does depend on the intention. There are worlds of difference between a friendly joke and the wag of an admonishing finger. To give an extreme example, Aaron Sorkin once got into a heated discussion, shall we say, on the Television Without Pity forums. He was so wrapped up in this flame war that he wrote an entire episode of The West Wing wherein online devotees are portrayed as inappropriate loonies. Then on the other hand, you have Futurama's wonderful episode "Where No Fan Has Gone Before" which is both a pardoy of and love letter to Trekkies. All I'm saying is, don't be Aaron Sorkin. Be Futurama. Very well said 😉
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Post by timegirl on Oct 15, 2020 14:02:25 GMT
Adding on to this discussion, I wonder how audiences would react if DW (tv, BF, or other extended media) ever did a longer multi episode story arch that was for the most part an extended satire of an aspect of DW? It would have to be carefully handled, but I would be curious if DW did an extended epic storyline that was in essence a satire of DW. We have seen one episode or short story satires but I wonder if it was properly integrated in could DW satire be a major aspect of an extensive plot much the way Bad Wolf, the crack in time, the hybrid, and the vault are? It would of course need to be balanced out by other elements as well, so it didn’t come across as too self indulgent or hit you in the head with it. It would also be wise to use metaphors so that it wasn’t too on the nose or preachy. This is kind of what trial of a Timelord did but I would be curious if it was attempted now but maybe with even a stronger emphasis on the satirical aspect. What do you guys think of this?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 14:14:57 GMT
Adding on to this discussion, I wonder how audiences would react if DW (tv, BF, or other extended media) ever did a longer multi episode story arch that was for the most part an extended satire of an aspect of DW? It would have to be carefully handled, but I would be curious if DW did an extended epic storyline that was in essence a satire of DW. We have seen one episode or short story satires but I wonder if it was properly integrated in could DW satire be a major aspect of an extensive plot much the way Bad Wolf, the crack in time, the hybrid, and the vault are? It would of course need to be balanced out by other elements as well, so it didn’t come across as too self indulgent or hit you in the head with it. It would also be wise to use metaphors so that it wasn’t too on the nose or preachy. I think by definition, it would come across as a little self-indulgent (but then, some of Doctor Who's best stories are self indulgent in the best possible way - Genesis of the Daleks for example) unless the subject of sature was widened a little. The politics of making a television program - diluting product to fit the right demographic, getting the stories beyond a station controller with no real interest in the genre (he could even be called Michael!), the ego of the actors or creators - all these things could be parodied - with care, as you say. As I write this, I become more aware of why this perhaps hasn't been done. Why create a story that steps on the toes of those making it? The satire may be hidden behind a spectacular sci-fi or horror concept, but it would have to be detectable for it to work. And if it is detectable by the audience, then those making it would have to be assured it wasn't about them! The more I think about this, the less I think my particular ideas would work. It's an idea I would love to hear, but I'm very grateful I wouldn't be writing it!
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Post by timegirl on Oct 15, 2020 14:28:36 GMT
Adding on to this discussion, I wonder how audiences would react if DW (tv, BF, or other extended media) ever did a longer multi episode story arch that was for the most part an extended satire of an aspect of DW? It would have to be carefully handled, but I would be curious if DW did an extended epic storyline that was in essence a satire of DW. We have seen one episode or short story satires but I wonder if it was properly integrated in could DW satire be a major aspect of an extensive plot much the way Bad Wolf, the crack in time, the hybrid, and the vault are? It would of course need to be balanced out by other elements as well, so it didn’t come across as too self indulgent or hit you in the head with it. It would also be wise to use metaphors so that it wasn’t too on the nose or preachy. I think by definition, it would come across as a little self-indulgent (but then, some of Doctor Who's best stories are self indulgent in the best possible way - Genesis of the Daleks for example) unless the subject of sature was widened a little. The politics of making a television program - diluting product to fit the right demographic, getting the stories beyond a station controller with no real interest in the genre (he could even be called Michael!), the ego of the actors or creators - all these things could be parodied - with care, as you say. As I write this, I become more aware of why this perhaps hasn't been done. Why create a story that steps on the toes of those making it? The satire may be hidden behind a spectacular sci-fi or horror concept, but it would have to be detectable for it to work. And if it is detectable by the audience, then those making it would have to be assured it wasn't about them! The more I think about this, the less I think my particular ideas would work. It's an idea I would love to hear, but I'm very grateful I wouldn't be writing it! I think your ideas could work, and since this is somewhat uncharted territory I think I think at some point someone should try this concept (a dw arch that is extended satire of itself) if nothing else as an experiment to see if and how it could work. I think the satire would have to be something that was handled affectionately so that the creators, actors, and audiences were comfortable with it. And in order to get it on the air maybe include some spectacular elements like battles, big revelations, romance, or even musical numbers to entice the higher ups and audience as well as maybe disguise the satire behind sci-fi or horror allegory. I definitely think it could be done it just would need to get a lot of pieces right.
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Post by polly on Oct 15, 2020 18:57:51 GMT
Adding on to this discussion, I wonder how audiences would react if DW (tv, BF, or other extended media) ever did a longer multi episode story arch that was for the most part an extended satire of an aspect of DW? It would have to be carefully handled, but I would be curious if DW did an extended epic storyline that was in essence a satire of DW. We have seen one episode or short story satires but I wonder if it was properly integrated in could DW satire be a major aspect of an extensive plot much the way Bad Wolf, the crack in time, the hybrid, and the vault are? It would of course need to be balanced out by other elements as well, so it didn’t come across as too self indulgent or hit you in the head with it. It would also be wise to use metaphors so that it wasn’t too on the nose or preachy. This is kind of what trial of a Timelord did but I would be curious if it was attempted now but maybe with even a stronger emphasis on the satirical aspect. What do you guys think of this? I think satire and parody works better in quick bursts. Even if it's not comedy, it's still all about timing, and I don't think overextending those ideas would do it any favors. If I was running the show, I'd look at it like this: While I'm spending 3-4 hours satirizing myself, would that time not be better spent making the best new story I can? You bring up a good point with Trial of a Timelord. I think Trial worked (mostly) because it was the subtext of the wider situation the series found itself in, and not so much the content of the show itself, although there is still some of that. And like you mention, with the exception on the finale, the emphasis is more on the adventures under review, with the Trial only interjecting occasional commentary. I agree with davros1 that if you wanted to wrangle an arc out of it, you'd have to cast a wider net.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 15, 2020 19:14:17 GMT
Adding on to this discussion, I wonder how audiences would react if DW (tv, BF, or other extended media) ever did a longer multi episode story arch that was for the most part an extended satire of an aspect of DW? It would have to be carefully handled, but I would be curious if DW did an extended epic storyline that was in essence a satire of DW. We have seen one episode or short story satires but I wonder if it was properly integrated in could DW satire be a major aspect of an extensive plot much the way Bad Wolf, the crack in time, the hybrid, and the vault are? It would of course need to be balanced out by other elements as well, so it didn’t come across as too self indulgent or hit you in the head with it. It would also be wise to use metaphors so that it wasn’t too on the nose or preachy. This is kind of what trial of a Timelord did but I would be curious if it was attempted now but maybe with even a stronger emphasis on the satirical aspect. What do you guys think of this? I think satire and parody works better in quick bursts. Even if it's not comedy, it's still all about timing, and I don't think overextending those ideas would do it any favors. If I was running the show, I'd look at it like this: While I'm spending 3-4 hours satirizing myself, would that time not be better spent making the best new story I can? You bring up a good point with Trial of a Timelord. I think Trial worked (mostly) because it was the subtext of the wider situation the series found itself in, and not so much the content of the show itself, although there is still some of that. And like you mention, with the exception on the finale, the emphasis is more on the adventures under review, with the Trial only interjecting occasional commentary. I agree with davros1 that if you wanted to wrangle an arc out of it, you'd have to cast a wider net. Perhaps if the central plot and themes worked both as satire of DW and had other deeper meanings, and worked well as an arc for the Doctor and companion(s), so it works on multiple levels
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 21:51:19 GMT
I think satire and parody works better in quick bursts. Even if it's not comedy, it's still all about timing, and I don't think overextending those ideas would do it any favors. If I was running the show, I'd look at it like this: While I'm spending 3-4 hours satirizing myself, would that time not be better spent making the best new story I can? You bring up a good point with Trial of a Timelord. I think Trial worked (mostly) because it was the subtext of the wider situation the series found itself in, and not so much the content of the show itself, although there is still some of that. And like you mention, with the exception on the finale, the emphasis is more on the adventures under review, with the Trial only interjecting occasional commentary. I agree with davros1 that if you wanted to wrangle an arc out of it, you'd have to cast a wider net. Perhaps if the central plot and themes worked both as satire of DW and had other deeper meanings, and worked well as an arc for the Doctor and companion(s), so it works on multiple levels The most effective satires, the ones that tend to stand the test of time, tend to use their satire more as the medium than the message. Vengeance on Varos, for instance, has a lot to say about video nasties and 1985 in general in the Punishment Dome, but the story itself has a big focus on systemic abuse through the Governor of Varos. The protocols behind power for the planet are deliberately skewed in such a way that the leader doesn't have any power at all. He's a scapegoat for whatever ire the public throw at him. And that's the point, the system isn't broken to Quillam, Sil or the Chief Officer, it's functioning as intended which makes it all the more damning. Something enabled by just how desensitised the average Varosian seems to be to things, as we see through the couple watching from home. It can be a very fine line if pursued, though. The Mind Robber, for example, works because the Doctor, Jamie and Zoe are real people fighting the classic fiction of the Land. When they become trapped by the mechanics of that world, it's treated not as a gag, but a source of serious drama. They've lost their individuality, their ingenuity, they've become little more than ciphers. At first appearances that doesn't look like explicit satire, but if you're familiar with the writing process, it's a nice little wink about how characters can often take on a life of their own. There's likewise a little bit of commentary around the conclusion where the Doctor tries to write himself and his friends out of the story, without turning himself into part of the narrative, the divide between fiction and reality. The moment that the satire overtakes the story, it becomes "Old Man Yells at Cloud" -- a fillibuster for what the author hates -- which is not what the story is for. Circling back round to The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, or at least my interpretation of it, was that it ended up being a way to tie down the show's recent past and banish it. Nightshade in the NAs did something similar by directly addressing the, well... the grief over losing the show, basically, with a creature that killed through nostalgia. With it banished, came Love and War, the first story to definitively take a step beyond the series by introducing a new companion, good ol' Benny. Greatest Show is a similar kind of totem. A way of saying, "We're out of the shadow of the Hiatus, we're no longer beholden to any Gods of Ragnarok."
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Post by timegirl on Oct 15, 2020 23:00:23 GMT
Perhaps if the central plot and themes worked both as satire of DW and had other deeper meanings, and worked well as an arc for the Doctor and companion(s), so it works on multiple levels The most effective satires, the ones that tend to stand the test of time, tend to use their satire more as the medium than the message. Vengeance on Varos, for instance, has a lot to say about video nasties and 1985 in general in the Punishment Dome, but the story itself has a big focus on systemic abuse through the Governor of Varos. The protocols behind power for the planet are deliberately skewed in such a way that the leader doesn't have any power at all. He's a scapegoat for whatever ire the public throw at him. And that's the point, the system isn't broken to Quillam, Sil or the Chief Officer, it's functioning as intended which makes it all the more damning. Something enabled by just how desensitised the average Varosian seems to be to things, as we see through the couple watching from home. It can be a very fine line if pursued, though. The Mind Robber, for example, works because the Doctor, Jamie and Zoe are real people fighting the classic fiction of the Land. When they become trapped by the mechanics of that world, it's treated not as a gag, but a source of serious drama. They've lost their individuality, their ingenuity, they've become little more than ciphers. At first appearances that doesn't look like explicit satire, but if you're familiar with the writing process, it's a nice little wink about how characters can often take on a life of their own. There's likewise a little bit of commentary around the conclusion where the Doctor tries to write himself and his friends out of the story, without turning himself into part of the narrative, the divide between fiction and reality. The moment that the satire overtakes the story, it becomes "Old Man Yells at Cloud" -- a fillibuster for what the author hates -- which is not what the story is for. Circling back round to The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, or at least my interpretation of it, was that it ended up being a way to tie down the show's recent past and banish it. Nightshade in the NAs did something similar by directly addressing the, well... the grief over losing the show, basically, with a creature that killed through nostalgia. With it banished, came Love and War, the first story to definitively take a step beyond the series by introducing a new companion, good ol' Benny. Greatest Show is a similar kind of totem. A way of saying, "We're out of the shadow of the Hiatus, we're no longer beholden to any Gods of Ragnarok." That’s a very good point about using satires as a medium more that the message and about satire overtaking the narrative being old man yells at cloud. It really is a balancing act with satire of DW! That’s a fascinating analysis of Greatest Show in the Galaxy! What about satire of dw that naturally derives from character motivations and actions. Like for instance the Doctor does something big and that has a spiral effect on the rest of the plot triggering the satire.
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