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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 10:33:10 GMT
While I'm overall excited about The War Doctor Begins, I understand that some Whovians are reluctant to John Hurt being recast. So here's my view. After listening to Jonathon Carley's wonderful impression on Doctors Assemble! and the opening BF excerpt, I personally feel that we should give him a chance to fulfil JH's legacy.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Oct 15, 2020 10:38:25 GMT
I think you could go on and on with comparisons and other examples. Ultimately, different people will have different views. If you're against recasts, then your stance won't change. I think this particular case probably runs the best chance of having a warmer reception and being "justified" in that there's a substantial gap between where we see the War Doctor as played by John Hurt and his earlier days. That's a little more akin to getting another actor in to play a younger version than a recast of someone who's deceased. I do think if John Hurt was still with us and Big Finish were wanting to explore the very beginning of the War Doctor's tenure, then they'd have used him. No question about that; it'd be no different to Tom, Peter, Colin, Sylv, etc. reprising their roles now. So I do see the stance on it being a recast. Personally, and I've said this on the first page and several times elsewhere, I think getting another actor in to play the role is the least imaginative thing that could have been done with the character. The Time War and its sheer scope and variety presents the opportunity to try different things. Stories in the eyes of random characters and how they perceive the War Doctor to be. Chronicles with established Doctor Who characters. Audiobooks of the unrecorded War Doctor scripts. With some of those you could probably get away with something a little darker without the need for the Doctor justifying the decision or having a mental fight with himself. I do appreciate that Big Finish will want some consistency with the range and actually saying they've got the War Doctor in full cast stories. So I completely understand the decision. Whilst they do the Chronicles sets, they're either with an impersonation or with era authentic characters, which I suppose you wouldn't necessarily get for the War Doctor; not long-term anyway. I suppose if they wanted to go down that route they'd have done it late 2017 with established characters who'd worked with John Hurt and capped off his run nicely. Much like Jago & Litefoot Forever really. We don't know this, but I suspect Adventures - i.e. full cast - sell better than Chronicles for BF, with Chronicles being perceived by some potential customers as second best. Perhaps that is one reason why BF have chosen to go this particular route. Or perhaps Jacob Dudman just couldn't do a good enough War Doctor?
I wouldn't personally say Chronicles are 2nd best, but I can see how one might think that
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Post by jahawk2009 on Oct 15, 2020 10:42:04 GMT
I think you could go on and on with comparisons and other examples. Ultimately, different people will have different views. If you're against recasts, then your stance won't change. I think this particular case probably runs the best chance of having a warmer reception and being "justified" in that there's a substantial gap between where we see the War Doctor as played by John Hurt and his earlier days. That's a little more akin to getting another actor in to play a younger version than a recast of someone who's deceased. I do think if John Hurt was still with us and Big Finish were wanting to explore the very beginning of the War Doctor's tenure, then they'd have used him. No question about that; it'd be no different to Tom, Peter, Colin, Sylv, etc. reprising their roles now. So I do see the stance on it being a recast. Personally, and I've said this on the first page and several times elsewhere, I think getting another actor in to play the role is the least imaginative thing that could have been done with the character. The Time War and its sheer scope and variety presents the opportunity to try different things. Stories in the eyes of random characters and how they perceive the War Doctor to be. Chronicles with established Doctor Who characters. Audiobooks of the unrecorded War Doctor scripts. With some of those you could probably get away with something a little darker without the need for the Doctor justifying the decision or having a mental fight with himself. I do appreciate that Big Finish will want some consistency with the range and actually saying they've got the War Doctor in full cast stories. So I completely understand the decision. Whilst they do the Chronicles sets, they're either with an impersonation or with era authentic characters, which I suppose you wouldn't necessarily get for the War Doctor; not long-term anyway. I suppose if they wanted to go down that route they'd have done it late 2017 with established characters who'd worked with John Hurt and capped off his run nicely. Much like Jago & Litefoot Forever really. We don't know this, but I suspect Adventures - i.e. full cast - sell better than Chronicles for BF, with Chronicles being perceived by some potential customers as second best. Perhaps that is one reason why BF have chosen to go this particular route. Or perhaps Jacob Dudman just couldn't do a good enough War Doctor?
I wouldn't personally say Chronicles are 2nd best, but I can see how one might think that
I know I personally would prefer to put money into a full cast release than a Chronicles release, so I assume there others who share that view
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Post by shallacatop on Oct 15, 2020 10:48:53 GMT
I’m sure on the whole the Chronicles type sets do sell less than the full cast ones and are also budgeted accordingly. I think there’s more to it than sales too, including the logistics of it all.
With one lead, in this case Carley, you can contract them and commission a run of 12 scripts and build the stories and guest cast around them.
With a Chronicles type set, and a revolving door of leads, it’s harder to commission four sets and get customers on board to pre-order them as you can’t advertise in advance. Of course it’s a little different if you do get a Dudman like role in, but if you do that with the War Doctor, where the original actor is deceased so no chance of them reprising the role, then you might as well go down the full cast route.
If you did a narrated set with the War Doctor, where he’s viewed in the eyes of others, then it’s a harder sell to begin with, without the assurance of a consistent cast and the longevity of four or more sets.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Oct 15, 2020 12:29:29 GMT
Hmm...mixed feelings about this. My initial reaction was...isn’t it a bit too soon to recast the role? Sir John has only been gone for four years...and upon reflection I still kinda feel that way, he did just 12 audios with Big finish, set at the very end of the war doctors life so barely begun to explore the character...it’s very bittersweet to have someone take on the role soon...especially as CArley is much younger than Hurt was and will likely end up voicing the character in far more stories at that point is it paying tribute or creating a brand new character? Would people be as supportive if Tom or Colin Baker for instance were recast? Does every gap need to be explored? I dunno...it’s certainly exciting and interesting but sometimes things need a cut off point, I also wonder if the war doctor would be more interrestiing if kept To the outskirts of story or seen from a different perspective? A large part of the reason why I liked The War Doctor so much was because of Hurts performance, and that his early years were a mystery ...I’m not so sure I.d be as interested with someone doing an impression, TIm Treloar is great as the 3rd doctor because whilst he doesn’t.t sounded exactly the same as Pertwee he captures the vocal mannerisms and spirit of the 3rd doctor brilliantly and is a great actor in his own right...From just that brief clip Carley certainly captures Hurts voice pretty well and seems like a pretty decent voice actor, and I am certainly not doubting the talent of everyone involved, just wondering if the vocal accuracy will actually take me out of the scene more...? On the other hand I certainly expect Big Finish to treat the recast and War Doctor with great care, and I feel sure Sir Hurt would be pleased his Doctor is living on in some form, its also really interesting that they are starting immediately after the regeneration, really curious how they will develop the character...There is far less existing material on The War Doctor than the others...I wonder if they can persuade Steven Moffat to contribute a few ideas. Also very interesting the hints that the War Doctor is going to be much darker in these early stories , presumely the BBC is allowing BF more creative freedom this time (though the imprresssion I got was the 10/11th doctors largely viewed war with disdain because of him using the moment not so much because of his fighting/actions in the time war itself) So I suppose I would say I’m curiously excited by this news? Going to have to wait for more story details and take some time to process my thoughts a bit more... I also wonder if this means the bbc will be more open to using the war doctor again in comics or novels...engines of war was great....
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Oct 15, 2020 12:45:13 GMT
I thought his impression was quite good in the multi-Doctor lockdown story from earlier this year.
Time catches up with all of us and I appreciate the creative and business needs to keep moving forward, but I don't think this direction of casting more and more replacements for actors that are unavailable or no longer with us is one that I personally want to support anymore.
Agreed on all points. I don’t completely agree with it, but I’ve seen some make the argument that using impressionists and recasts so prominently makes the stories seem less authentic and special and more like fan productions filling in gaps (I think that view is a bit rude tbh...big finish are essentially fan productions...but they are done brilliantly and I think it’s pretty cool people like Jacob Dudman have got the chance to record canon stories)...I suppose how people react to this particular news depends on how interesting/mysterious they view the time war to be... I also wonder if he fact that these are full cast rather than chronicles style releases is important...every doctor bf works with apart from the 2nd now has a full cast box set series, I’m guessing they will phase out the companion chronicles and start a second doctor adventures range....would they recast Troughton with a younger actor as well?
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Post by jahawk2009 on Oct 15, 2020 12:48:42 GMT
I also wonder if he fact that these are full cast rather than chronicles style releases is important...every doctor bf works with apart from the 2nd now has a full cast box set series, I’m guessing they will phase out the companion chronicles and start a second doctor adventures range....would they recast Troughton with a younger actor as well? I'd be quite happy to see them cast Frazer as the 2nd Doctor in a full cast environment. Though I wouldn't say no to a younger actor who can capture Patrick's mannerisms convincingly.
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Post by grinch on Oct 15, 2020 12:54:10 GMT
I thought his impression was quite good in the multi-Doctor lockdown story from earlier this year.
Time catches up with all of us and I appreciate the creative and business needs to keep moving forward, but I don't think this direction of casting more and more replacements for actors that are unavailable or no longer with us is one that I personally want to support anymore.
Agreed on all points. I don’t completely agree with it, but I’ve seen some make the argument that using impressionists and recasts so prominently makes the stories seem less authentic and special and more like fan productions filling in gaps (I think that view is a bit rude tbh...big finish are essentially fan productions...but they are done brilliantly and I think it’s pretty cool people like Jacob Dudman have got the chance to record canon stories)...I suppose how people react to this particular news depends on how interesting/mysterious they view the time war to be... I also wonder if he fact that these are full cast rather than chronicles style releases is important...every doctor bf works with apart from the 2nd now has a full cast box set series, I’m guessing they will phase out the companion chronicles and start a second doctor adventures range....would they recast Troughton with a younger actor as well? With Troughton I really don’t get the point in recasting. Frazer Hines has so perfectly portrayed the Second Doctor on audio over the years that unless he really has no wish to reprise the role I really don’t see the point in recasting. Then again, I also don’t see the point in having Second Doctor adventures post War Games (especially considering that Big Finish already gave us an explanation for that piece of continuity) so maybe it’s just me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 13:12:01 GMT
I think that John Hurt played the older War Doctor well with his gravelly voice, worn out through a lifetime as a smoker. In that respect he would have had difficulty voicing a younger, freshly regenerated version of the character in the same way that Deborah Watling no longer sounded anything like her younger self (a smoker too). We had the name on the billing, but had to suspend disbelief that it was the young Victoria we were listening to, unless it was narrated past tense.
So in that regard, a younger voice would perhaps better match the image of the younger John Hurt we will likely be seeing photo-shopped on the box/cover artwork (his 'A Man for All Seasons' & '10 Rillington Place' period).
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Post by jahawk2009 on Oct 15, 2020 13:12:41 GMT
Agreed on all points. I don’t completely agree with it, but I’ve seen some make the argument that using impressionists and recasts so prominently makes the stories seem less authentic and special and more like fan productions filling in gaps (I think that view is a bit rude tbh...big finish are essentially fan productions...but they are done brilliantly and I think it’s pretty cool people like Jacob Dudman have got the chance to record canon stories)...I suppose how people react to this particular news depends on how interesting/mysterious they view the time war to be... I also wonder if he fact that these are full cast rather than chronicles style releases is important...every doctor bf works with apart from the 2nd now has a full cast box set series, I’m guessing they will phase out the companion chronicles and start a second doctor adventures range....would they recast Troughton with a younger actor as well? With Troughton I really don’t get the point in recasting. Frazer Hines has so perfectly portrayed the Second Doctor on audio over the years that unless he really has no wish to reprise the role I really don’t see the point in recasting. Then again, I also don’t see the point in having Second Doctor adventures post War Games (especially considering that Big Finish already gave us an explanation for that piece of continuity) so maybe it’s just me. That's a good point. BF seem to be moving their recasts into "safe zones". Parts of the Doctors timeline that haven't been touched. War Doctor Origins, 2nd Doctor post-WG.
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Post by Digi on Oct 15, 2020 13:27:03 GMT
It's all subjective. I get the Ewan/Obi Wan comparison but perhaps it would be a little different if Hurt hadn't already voiced the character's first moments. That said, there's no denying Carley's talent after hearing his performance in that clip. I'm genuinely wishing him and the rest of the creative team the best. I mean, he said a whole of three words, when the character had regenerated 20 seconds before. I think any superficial inconsistency here can be entirely ignored.
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Post by elkawho on Oct 15, 2020 14:03:15 GMT
I am looking forward to this more than I ever expected I would. As I've said before, I'm not the biggest fan of the concept of the War Doctor. But I made this comment recently which has changed how I view this incarnation somewhat.
"And when he (Eight) loses his hope, that's when he gives in and regenerates into War. The War Doctor isn't forgotten because of his actions during the Time War. It's because he's the regeneration that lost hope and gave in." It's only his lack of hope that allows him to use The Moment. Thinking about him this way means that he can act like the Doctor and still be dismissed by his later incarnations, even the ones who remember that Gallifrey still exists.
Carney sounds amazing as a younger version of the character. I have every confidence that BF will do this right.
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Post by relativetime on Oct 15, 2020 17:39:36 GMT
I've been craving more material with the War Doctor lately, but I'm surprised we're getting it so soon - and full-cast as well! I say it every time it comes up, but I'm absolutely fine with recasts for characters whose original actor is sadly no longer with us or they've definitively stated they no longer wish to play the part in any capacity. And as has already been stated, this is sort of a unique situation since this is a younger version of the character John Hurt portrayed.
I'm actually more pleased about these sets than having further Eighth Doctor time War sets. Certainly that range has more than proven itself - though I'm still not entirely up to date on them! - but I don't think the Eighth Doctor should have more stories set around or during the Time War than the actual Doctor who fought in it. There's some really fascinating places they could take the War Doctor that we just BARELY got to tap into with the first four sets and I'm eager to see where we go with it.
Basically, never mind the recast, I just don't want these sets to play it safe - I want some really controversial and experimental stuff!
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Oct 15, 2020 23:24:18 GMT
Throwing out a hypothetical here.. What if Sir John Hurt, before his passing, confirmed himself he is all for this to occur? What are peoples thoughts on that?
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Oct 16, 2020 2:11:23 GMT
Oh.. I love the fact the facebook "Big Finish OCD" page has already got their spine covers designed and ready for printing ready for June 2021.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2020 11:25:17 GMT
While I'm overall excited about The War Doctor Begins, I understand that some Whovians are reluctant to John Hurt being recast. So here's my view. After listening to Jonathon Carley's wonderful impression on Doctors Assemble! and the opening BF excerpt, I personally feel that we should give him a chance to fulfil JH's legacy. It’s not a problem with a recast.....it’s what they do with the storytelling tbh but given the MCGann Time War set has reinvigorated my interest....let’s see but I have reservations as the character hadn’t really changed as I expected perhaps the younger version may be a little more.....different to the older Hurt Characterisation who knows.
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Post by shallacatop on Oct 16, 2020 11:37:32 GMT
Throwing out a hypothetical here.. What if Sir John Hurt, before his passing, confirmed himself he is all for this to occur? What are peoples thoughts on that? I don’t have an issue with it myself, so I suppose the question isn’t aimed at me, but I don’t think those against it are speaking on behalf of John Hurt, rather they’re speaking about their own feelings. So I don’t think Hurt’s blessing would matter much. Indeed others on this thread have said that the actors themselves aren’t likely to be precious about it, especially if the question is posed as something to happen after they’ve passed away anyway.
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Post by theillusiveman on Oct 16, 2020 14:32:55 GMT
I will say that Johnathan Carley's War Doctor impression is remarkable and i wish him all the best in the role the fact that its been only 3 years since John Hurt's Passing does feel a bit too soon
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Oct 16, 2020 18:23:51 GMT
I will say that Johnathan Carley's War Doctor impression is remarkable and i wish him all the best in the role the fact that its been only 3 years since John Hurt's Passing does feel a bit too soonYeah, thinking it over a bit more and that is really my main issue with this, it just does feel too soon. Pertwee and Hartnell have been gone for decades and had fully established Doctors and era's on screen, we only got a tiny glimpse of Hurt's Doctor at the every end of his life so barely got a chance to know his Doctor, only a short few years ago. I think one of the reasons why the War Doctor worked so well was because we only got a small glimpse and a cinema legend playing the character...I dunno, I guess recasting the role so soon makes Hurt's work seem less impactful, also worried that exploring too much of the great unseen time war will ruin some of the mystery (and yes I'm fully aware that no one will be focing me to listen or buy these stories) Carley seems to do a very good impression of Hurt's voice (and seems a decent voice actor in his own right), but there's so little material on the War Doctor caputuring his character rather than the voice may prove the harder task i.m.o....Carley will likely end up voicing the War Doctor in more stories than Hurt did (and likely have some creative say in how the chracter is developed), at that point will he be thought of as the War Doctor more than Hurt will be? Really curious to hear Steven Moffat's thoughts on this (presumebly they ran th eidea past him first) as I thing he's on record as saying he doesen't view the War Doctor as necassrily any more dark or brutal than the others. I'm also wondering if Smith or Capaldi decide they don't want to do Big Finish (or want to wait a while longer) whether BF will recast the role for full cast audios...
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Post by thegreendeath on Oct 18, 2020 4:43:06 GMT
Honestly the clip didn’t sell me on Carley and so far I’ve found the least interesting part of the Time War range to be the War Doctor parts but I’ll still order because they’ve said that Richardson and Fitton have an overarching storyline they’re building with the Time War and I have faith that it’s all going to fit together in interesting ways and I wouldn’t want to miss a piece of the puzzle.
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