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Post by timegirl on Oct 19, 2020 18:10:01 GMT
So I was thinking thinking there a lot of stories that I simultaneously like and hate at the same time for reasons of frustration. What are some DW episodes/ stories that you simultaneously like and hate at the same time?
Mine:
All of season 3: some of it is very good and memorable but 10’s mistreatment of Martha is almost too hard to take at times.
The End of Time: I love it for the most part despite its cheesiness andI think Tennant gives a heart wrenching performance in places, but some aspects of his treatment of Wilf rub me the wrong way.
Wedding of River Song: I love the stuff with all the time periods combining, but the plot it’s self hurts my brain.
Season 8: I adore this season for the most part but it also frustrates me because I want Clara to break up Danny so she can just travel with 12.
Face the Raven: Beautiful world building and heartbreak and suspense. But it makes me so angry at Me/Ashidir that I would like to reach through the screen and slap her, also Clara’s death.
Hell Bent: I really like aspects of this episode! Although I resent it because of separating 12 and Clara permanently which broke my heart! Also I don’t like the they made Me/Ashidir Clara’s companion, she’s horrible and smug and I desperately wanted a happy ending for 12 and Clara.
Husbands of River Song: I kind of resent how good this episode is, it funny and heartwarming and heartbreaking but at the same time I wish this episode didn’t even exist. It just felt so wrong after 12 go separated from his soulmate to have this big romantic episode with River. I guess because I so wanted a happy ending for 12 and Clara this didn’t feel right to me.
Twice upon a Time: Some aspects a lovely send off for 12, he has the best regeneration speech and some of the interactions are beautiful. But I also avoid rewatching it because the regeneration feels too much like an actual death to me.
Season 11: Some brilliance but also uneven characterization and lack of an arch!
Timeless Children: I hated the revelation at first but the more I think about it has potential.
What are some episodes/stories that you simultaneously like and hate at the same time?
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Post by grinch on Oct 19, 2020 18:26:22 GMT
I wouldn’t say I hate it but I do have a love hate relationship with The Web Planet.
I think it’s rather slow and quite silly in places but I can’t help but admire the ambition of the piece. A story with no human characters bar the main cast taking place entirely on an alien world whose inhabitants resemble Earth insects? For 1965, that would have been quite the difficult task to fully realise but they do their best so I have to give them credit for that. Not to mention I rather like the Animus as a threat with it’s cold voice echoing from parts unknown. Reminds me a lot of the Great Intelligence in that regard.
Probably why they tend to lump the two together as Great Old Ones in the Expanded Universe even if I have never been the biggest fan of that idea.
Also has some really decent worldbuilding (even if the likes of the Optera were clearly a last minute addition) which is probably why Vortis and its inhabitants have been constantly revisited over the years.
So yeah, for me it’s heart is in the right place but I think the execution was a little off. Still have to give them credit for trying at least. That’s worth at least a pint or a pat on the back.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 19, 2020 18:30:06 GMT
I wouldn’t say I hate it but I do have a love hate relationship with The Web Planet. I think it’s rather slow and quite silly in places but I can’t help but admire the ambition of the piece. A story with no human characters bar the main cast taking place entirely on an alien world whose inhabitants resemble Earth insects? For 1965, that would have been quite difficult task to fully realise but they do the best so I have to give them credit for that. Not to mention I rather like the Animus a threat with it’s cold voice echoing from parts unknown. Reminds me a lot of the Great Intelligence in that regard. Probably why they tend to lump the two together as Great Old Ones in the Expanded Universe even if I have never been the biggest fan of that idea. Also has some really decent worldbuilding (even if the likes of the Optera were clearly a last minute addition) which is probably why Vortis and its inhabitants have been constantly revisited over the years. So yeah, for me it’s heart is in the right place but I think the execution was a little off. Still have to give them credit for trying at least. That’s worth at least a pint or a pat on the back. I love The Web Planet too! They really should do more stories in that setting! |
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Post by mark687 on Oct 19, 2020 20:04:37 GMT
I'm gonna be controversial here I think From Classic Era Revelation of the Daleks Loose the Doctor entirely he adds nothing to the plot which is otherwise very good. Paradise Towers Couple of the most incredulous cliff-hangers (yes even the literal one in Dragonfire is better) and final villain reveal you'll ever see. New Series Asylum of the Daleks and Night Terrors Having watched Amy and Rory's saga play I just don't buy their views on children (either as PTSD or poorly enacted Dark Hour I was never a fan of Amy but Night Terrors put me right off them both) Last Xmas This has one of the best Guest Casts in New Who and they'er given virtually given nothing to do in favor of trying to get the Doctor to admit he's lonely and getting Clara to decide whether she wanted to pick him up again like a carry-puppy and what's the point of a 5-7 minute Danny Pink fantasy anyway! I did say the Post will be controversial  Regards mark687 |
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Post by timegirl on Oct 19, 2020 20:07:48 GMT
I'm gonna be controversial here I think From Classic Era Revelation of the Daleks Loose the Doctor entirely he adds nothing to the plot which is otherwise very good. Paradise Towers Couple of the most incredulous cliff-hangers (yes even the literal one in Dragonfire is better) and final villain reveal you'll ever see. New Series Asylum of the Daleks and Night Terrors Having watched Amy and Rory's saga play I just don't buy their views on children (either as PTSD or poorly enacted Dark Hour I was never a fan of Amy but Night Terrors put me right off them both) Last Xmas This has one of the best Guest Casts in New Who and they'er given virtually given nothing to do in favor of trying to get the Doctor to admit he's lonely and getting Clara to decide whether she wanted to pick him up again like a carry-puppy and what's the point of a 5-7 minute Danny Pink fantasy anyway! I did say the Post will be controversial Regards mark687 Even if I don’t agree with all of them I like your honesty 😊 |
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Post by polly on Oct 19, 2020 22:08:11 GMT
I cannot stand watching the otherwise excellent Human Nature/Family of Blood for one very petty reason - The "Son of Mine"/"Mother of Mine" nomenclature for the bad guys is so inexplicably annoying to me that I cannot stand to watch them.
There are a few other episode that I think have interesting aspects but don't fulfill them, but I don't think that's love/hate so much as simple mediocrity.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 19, 2020 22:27:32 GMT
I cannot stand watching the otherwise excellent Human Nature/Family of Blood for one very petty reason - The "Son of Mine"/"Mother of Mine" nomenclature for the bad guys is so inexplicably annoying to me that I cannot stand to watch them. There are a few other episode that I think have interesting aspects but don't fulfill them, but I don't think that's love/hate so much as simple mediocrity. I’ve never thought of that before! It is odd naming isn’t it! I have issues with Human Nature/Family of Blood too! Like how 10 makes Martha hide out in an era where she is treated as a second class citizen! Also it bothers me that they chose to do this storyline with one of the most human new who Doctors. It didn’t make any sense when they said that 10 wouldn’t think he might fall in love as a human when his incarnation fell in love more often than any other incarnation. He had already fallen both for Rose and Madame de Pompedour! I haven’t read the book this is based on but I can imagine it was much more effective with the normally far less human, 7. Can you imagine how much more shocking the contrast between the Doctor and John Smith would be if they did this story line with 9, 11 or 12? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 1:03:57 GMT
I wouldn’t say I hate it but I do have a love hate relationship with The Web Planet. I think it’s rather slow and quite silly in places but I can’t help but admire the ambition of the piece. A story with no human characters bar the main cast taking place entirely on an alien world whose inhabitants resemble Earth insects? For 1965, that would have been quite the difficult task to fully realise but they do their best so I have to give them credit for that. Not to mention I rather like the Animus as a threat with it’s cold voice echoing from parts unknown. Reminds me a lot of the Great Intelligence in that regard. Probably why they tend to lump the two together as Great Old Ones in the Expanded Universe even if I have never been the biggest fan of that idea. Also has some really decent worldbuilding (even if the likes of the Optera were clearly a last minute addition) which is probably why Vortis and its inhabitants have been constantly revisited over the years. So yeah, for me it’s heart is in the right place but I think the execution was a little off. Still have to give them credit for trying at least. That’s worth at least a pint or a pat on the back. Interesting adaptation fact: The novelisation for The Web Planet doesn't actually use the Animus as the name of the entity that's subsumed Vortis. It's left largely unidentified. When they do refer to it, they use the ambiguous title of... the Intelligence. I reckon that if it had ended up as one of the stories definitively wiped and The Zarbi had become the de facto source for information, fanon would have likely welded the two entities together. Turning The Abominable Snowmen and The Web of Fear into stealth sequels. I do like the separation, though. The Great Intelligence feels like a more etheral force than the Animus's malignant blight. Both powerful, but in different ways (props to Bill Strutton for, I think, the show's first showing of organic technology in the Centre?). Would you believe Image of the Fendahl? A seriously ghastly villain, one of the series' best, using the history of Earth in a way not to dissimilar to Fenric years down the track. Terrific atmosphere. Unfortunately, it's a very uneven story being commissioned by one script editor, workshopped by an already heavily preoccupied author and finalised by yet another script editor. The result is a third episode that doesn't really need to be there and an introduction to the priory that feels just a bit too self-aware on the Doctor and Leela's part. A lot of the story is led by Adam, rather than the Doctor, who spends quite a bit of it snooping around the edges. Still very much worth watching (Fendelman's shriek of "I am being used... You are being used! Mankind has been used!" remains absolutely chilling), but it's... frustrating, from a structural standpoint. |
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Post by timegirl on Oct 20, 2020 1:24:24 GMT
I wouldn’t say I hate it but I do have a love hate relationship with The Web Planet. I think it’s rather slow and quite silly in places but I can’t help but admire the ambition of the piece. A story with no human characters bar the main cast taking place entirely on an alien world whose inhabitants resemble Earth insects? For 1965, that would have been quite the difficult task to fully realise but they do their best so I have to give them credit for that. Not to mention I rather like the Animus as a threat with it’s cold voice echoing from parts unknown. Reminds me a lot of the Great Intelligence in that regard. Probably why they tend to lump the two together as Great Old Ones in the Expanded Universe even if I have never been the biggest fan of that idea. Also has some really decent worldbuilding (even if the likes of the Optera were clearly a last minute addition) which is probably why Vortis and its inhabitants have been constantly revisited over the years. So yeah, for me it’s heart is in the right place but I think the execution was a little off. Still have to give them credit for trying at least. That’s worth at least a pint or a pat on the back. Interesting adaptation fact: The novelisation for The Web Planet doesn't actually use the Animus as the name of the entity that's subsumed Vortis. It's left largely unidentified. When they do refer to it, they use the ambiguous title of... the Intelligence. I reckon that if it had ended up as one of the stories definitively wiped and The Zarbi had become the de facto source for information, fanon would have likely welded the two entities together. Turning The Abominable Snowmen and The Web of Fear into stealth sequels. I do like the separation, though. The Great Intelligence feels like a more etheral force than the Animus's malignant blight. Both powerful, but in different ways (props to Bill Strutton for, I think, the show's first showing of organic technology in the Centre?). Would you believe Image of the Fendahl? A seriously ghastly villain, one of the series' best, using the history of Earth in a way not to dissimilar to Fenric years down the track. Terrific atmosphere. Unfortunately, it's a very uneven story being commissioned by one script editor, workshopped by an already heavily preoccupied author and finalised by yet another script editor. The result is a third episode that doesn't really need to be there and an introduction to the priory that feels just a bit too self-aware on the Doctor and Leela's part. A lot of the story is led by Adam, rather than the Doctor, who spends quite a bit of it snooping around the edges. Still very much worth watching (Fendelman's shriek of "I am being used... You are being used! Mankind has been used!" remains absolutely chilling), but it's... frustrating, from a structural standpoint. Never knew that about The Web Planet! Like you were saying about Image of Fendahl, it seems like a particular problem with some classic who that longer serials can come across as uneven. |
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Post by Jeedai on Oct 20, 2020 1:56:29 GMT
This topic cant go without a mention of The Talons Of Weng Chiang. A great story that looks great too (mostly). Four and Leela are in top form. Jago and Litefoot are awesome, well deserving of their eventual spinoff. But the yellowface is all kinds of cringe, and the ultimate villain is a barely painted-over Master knock-off. And I may be blocking the memory of the giant rat...
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Post by timegirl on Oct 20, 2020 2:13:19 GMT
This topic like this cant go without a mention of The Talons Of Weng Chiang. A great story that looks great too (mostly). Four and Leela are in top form. Jago and Litefoot are awesome, well deserving of their eventual spinoff. But the yellowface is all kinds of cringe, and the ultimate villain is a barely painted-over Master knock-off. And I may be blocking the memory of the giant rat... Definitely agree with you on this one! I can kind of forgive the lack luster villain and giant rat but I really wish they had avoided using yellowface! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 2:51:31 GMT
Interesting adaptation fact: The novelisation for The Web Planet doesn't actually use the Animus as the name of the entity that's subsumed Vortis. It's left largely unidentified. When they do refer to it, they use the ambiguous title of... the Intelligence. I reckon that if it had ended up as one of the stories definitively wiped and The Zarbi had become the de facto source for information, fanon would have likely welded the two entities together. Turning The Abominable Snowmen and The Web of Fear into stealth sequels. I do like the separation, though. The Great Intelligence feels like a more etheral force than the Animus's malignant blight. Both powerful, but in different ways (props to Bill Strutton for, I think, the show's first showing of organic technology in the Centre?). Would you believe Image of the Fendahl? A seriously ghastly villain, one of the series' best, using the history of Earth in a way not to dissimilar to Fenric years down the track. Terrific atmosphere. Unfortunately, it's a very uneven story being commissioned by one script editor, workshopped by an already heavily preoccupied author and finalised by yet another script editor. The result is a third episode that doesn't really need to be there and an introduction to the priory that feels just a bit too self-aware on the Doctor and Leela's part. A lot of the story is led by Adam, rather than the Doctor, who spends quite a bit of it snooping around the edges. Still very much worth watching (Fendelman's shriek of "I am being used... You are being used! Mankind has been used!" remains absolutely chilling), but it's... frustrating, from a structural standpoint. Never knew that about The Web Planet! Like you were saying about Image of Fendahl, it seems like a particular problem with some classic who that longer serials can come across as uneven. That can be very true. The Web Planet is one of those stories -- in terms of its length -- that feels as though it may have been a victim of "follow the leader". The Dalek Invasion of Earth was a big six-part Hobbit-style journey through occupied England that worked primarily because it was stories within stories. Ian met with the black marketeer, Barbara met with the pair of collaborators, Susan helped defuse the fire-bomb set to level the city, and so on. Web doesn't quite have that, so it spends the opening episodes treading water (once we get to the Centre, we're good). It would work much better these days as a four or even three-parter, but it was one of the highest-viewed stories of the 60s for a reason. The concepts are stunning. Image of the Fendahl, on the other hand, feels more like a tonal problem. It was commissioned by Robert Holmes in the mould of The Robots of Death or The Horror of Fang Rock. Grim and deadly. However, the new chap, Antony Read, was operating under a mandate from on high to reduce the level of grotesquery in the show. Something of a problem with Fendahl, in particular, as the story pretty much thrives on it. So, you get these strange moments where the story wants to do a lighter, jollier Doctor... in a situation where he'd be reacting far more like in Pyramids of Mars or The Seeds of Doom (i.e. with restrained intensity). Not playing down the horror, but amping it up. His mercy to Stahl where he hands him the gun is one of the most poignant ("I'm sorry..." / "...Thank you." *pause, then a gunshot*). Bowing to the script's strengths would have made the whole of it stronger viewing, I feel. The irony there is the next story written by Holmes himself, The Sun Makers, was the first story to me that felt like the Williams era being allowed to land on its feet. Low on Gothic, high on swashbuckling. |
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Post by polly on Oct 20, 2020 4:56:52 GMT
I’ve never thought of that before! It is odd naming isn’t it! I have issues with Human Nature/Family of Blood too! Like how 10 makes Martha hide out in an era where she is treated as a second class citizen! Also it bothers me that they chose to do this storyline with one of the most human new who Doctors. It didn’t make any sense when they said that 10 wouldn’t think he might fall in love as a human when his incarnation fell in love more often than any other incarnation. He had already fallen both for Rose and Madame de Pompedour! I haven’t read the book this is based on but I can imagine it was much more effective with the normally far less human, 7. Can you imagine how much more shocking the contrast between the Doctor and John Smith would be if they did this story line with 9, 11 or 12? It is odd naming, and I don't know why it bugs me so much. I haven't read the book either. I think Benny hiding out as a maid might have had an easier time than Martha did. Also good point about falling in love all the time. Ten has his heart on his sleeve, Seven...does not. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 6:40:25 GMT
I’ve never thought of that before! It is odd naming isn’t it! I have issues with Human Nature/Family of Blood too! Like how 10 makes Martha hide out in an era where she is treated as a second class citizen! Also it bothers me that they chose to do this storyline with one of the most human new who Doctors. It didn’t make any sense when they said that 10 wouldn’t think he might fall in love as a human when his incarnation fell in love more often than any other incarnation. He had already fallen both for Rose and Madame de Pompedour! I haven’t read the book this is based on but I can imagine it was much more effective with the normally far less human, 7. Can you imagine how much more shocking the contrast between the Doctor and John Smith would be if they did this story line with 9, 11 or 12? It is odd naming, and I don't know why it bugs me so much. I haven't read the book either. I think Benny hiding out as a maid might have had an easier time than Martha did. Also good point about falling in love all the time. Ten has his heart on his sleeve, Seven...does not. There's an interesting implication over that set of books that, while the Seventh Doctor understands human grief, he can't actually connect with it on an emotional level. It's alien to him. The whole purpose of the exercise in the novel is that he'll spend three months as a human then return back to normal. Hopefully, with a better understanding of what Benny has been suffering through as, in the previous story, she fell in love with a man who burned to death in a village fire. She puts on a brave face, but it's getting to her and the Doctor can tell. So, he does it as a kindness for a friend. In his own way. Unfortunately... He misjudges just how promising a target he is certain parties (a different group from the ye newly Family of Blood). |
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Post by relativetime on Oct 20, 2020 11:44:36 GMT
Kill the Moon. I absolutely love the character drama here but the story itself really falls apart for me. I’m not sure I feel comfortable with how the story chose to address the issue of abortion - from an American perspective where the issue is very much a heated issue (ESPECIALLY given recent events), I expect the problem to be addressed with a lot more nuance and care than it was here. I also don’t really have a problem with the show doing these sorts of weird, out there sci-fi ideas that totally contradicts everything that came before like the moon being an egg, but how the story chooses to wrap everything up at the end is way too near and quick. There could have been an entirely separate episode dealing with the fallout of the moon suddenly vanishing. But, again, I feel like the character conflict between the Doctor and Clara is ALMOST strong enough to save the entire episode, so... definitely an episode I’m conflicted about.
I’ve also got a bit of a soft spot for The Wedding of River Song. It’s rushed and way too overstuffed, but I like a lot of the ideas Moffat was going for here and I at least appreciate he was being ambitious and fell short of the mark rather than playing it safe.
Day of the Doctor is another one I kind of had that “love/hate” relationship with for a while, but as time’s gone by I find more and more reasons to enjoy it for what it is. I’m still aware of its shortcomings, but it still gave us a lot of great material both then and still today.
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