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Post by shallacatop on Dec 9, 2020 11:35:16 GMT
I feel after initial reservations Dalek Universe might be something different and would be exciting if it did not include any old characters I just don't understand why old characters immediately means unexciting for some people. There's always new sides to explore, especially if they haven't seen each other for a long time and/or they left things unresolved. Like, for example, I can understand the problem with Ace in the 7th Doctor's audios, the characterisation is a bit inconsistent and her experiences don't inform changes in her behaviour (at least not notably enough). But that's after the fact, after you've listened to them and see how it was done. Before, it's kind of like crying wolf. I don't think it's difficult to understand in the same way it's not difficult to understand why someone would be excited for Ten to be paired with Leela, Nyssa, River, Ace, K9, Daleks, Movellans, Davros, Mechanoids, Five, Six & Seven, etc. If you've had enough content out of those characters, then you've simply had enough content regardless of the setting or placement for them. Or you could just prefer to move forward, which I appreciate is a very broad term, and not have 19 consecutive Tenth Doctor releases having some returning element. Sometimes it's not down to the returning element as a concept, but rather who they're using. I'm sure there'll be those critical of Dalek Universe but if you instead chucked in Ood, Judoon, Sycorax, etc. then they'd have a different reception because they view it as more of a celebration of the era, and authentic to the era, than looking too backwards. Or equally some have said they'd be all over the Classic Companions set if it was three of the less used characters. It's of course down to personal opinion, but I don't find either side difficult to understand.
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Post by relativetime on Dec 9, 2020 11:58:57 GMT
When I really sit down and think about it, I think Big Finish has kind of done this sort of thing from the very start - focusing on having classic characters who never met on television meet, that is. The marketing has changed as Big Finish has gained more visibility and as technology has changed, but fundamentally I don’t think what we’re getting these days is all that different from when Big Finish made a trilogy of stories where the Doctor faces Omega, Davros, and the Master, or when they had the Sixth Doctor finally meet the Brigadier and Romana, or when any number of classic monsters from the show made an appearance. Gallifrey is an entire range of stories that frankly must look like the ultimate fanfic with all the characters it brings together from across all of Doctor Who. Yet all of these things worked and we still always got new original stories with new original monsters and characters to enjoy.
I’d argue not too much has really changed overall, it’s just that now we’re getting more of everything and now that the audience has increased and the technology has changed, things are categorized or marketed differently. And to be fair to these really “gimmicky” ideas, so, so many of them have worked extremely well. Series 2, 3, and 5 of River Song were all absolutely phenomenal and they all had the “gimmick” of River meeting a classic character. And speaking of River, I also feel as though they handled her inclusion really well in the ongoing Eighth Doctor boxsets in a unique and interesting way. The Classic Doctors, New Monsters boxsets I remember being generally praised too - and I certainly enjoyed them.
Almost every time I can think that they’ve put out something with a big marketing hook like this set, it ends up generally being agreed that Big Finish did a pretty good job with it. Not everyone thinks that way and that’s fine, but there’s still plenty of original stories and ideas that are getting the green light that haven’t depended on marketing a returning character. Most of the recent Sixth Doctor monthly stories have been that way. So have a lot of the recent Fifth Doctor stories.
So, overall, I think I’m going to trust Big Finish on this one. Certainly there are things I wish they’d do with Ten instead such as focusing on giving us more box set series like the Eighth Doctor - but I also kind feel like that’s what I’ll be getting from Dalek Universe. And the stories here are all being handled by great writers known for giving us good character pieces. I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable putting bets on this being a highlight of 2022, truthfully!
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lidar2
Castellan

You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Dec 9, 2020 12:04:51 GMT
I feel after initial reservations Dalek Universe might be something different and would be exciting if it did not include any old characters I just don't understand why old characters immediately means unexciting for some people. There's always new sides to explore, especially if they haven't seen each other for a long time and/or they left things unresolved. Like, for example, I can understand the problem with Ace in the 7th Doctor's audios, the characterisation is a bit inconsistent and her experiences don't inform changes in her behaviour (at least not notably enough). But that's after the fact, after you've listened to them and see how it was done. Before, it's kind of like crying wolf. Speaking for myself, I am bored with some characters who pop up very regularly and would like to see more of the characters who don't pop up as often. Once a character has been well and truly explored and we've seen lots of different sides to them, then I am more interested in exploring other, less developed characters. I'm not attacking or rubbishing any of the actors/companions BF use a lot, I'm very much coming at it from the perspective of "you can have too much of a good thing". So it is a case of having reached saturation point with some characters and/or combos. And, if you think about it logically, one companion being overused means others being underused. And I'd prefer to see more of the underused companions and more original companions.
For instance, Nyssa was in every single Five MR trilogy from 2009 to 2018. There was 10 years between the Nyssa-less Key2Time trilogy in 2009 and the next Nyssa-less trilogy in 2019. I can't be the only one who thinks there was something a bit stale and samey about that.
The companions also enable us to explore the Doctor's character. For instance, you can only learn so much about Seven through his relationship with Ace - there comes a point where if you want to see a new aspect of his character you need a different companion to bring it out. I've said it before, but I think part of the reason Six is so popular on audio is because he has the greatest variety of companions and the most original companions amongst the classic doctors.
In principle I would prefer BF to aim to give roughly equal airtime to all doctors/companions. I understand there are practical constraints due to actor availability and that equal airtime is simply impossible in practice, but looking at BF releases one could be forgiven for thinking that they are not even trying and are instead just providing as much work as possible for their favoured actors/companions. It almost seems as if BF prefer to stick to their comfort zone of the same old same old tried and trusted actors/companions that they are familiar with and comfortable with but some of the listeners are bored silly with.
A change is as good as a rest, as the old saying goes, and some of the overused companions could do with a rest.
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Post by BHTvsTFC on Dec 9, 2020 12:19:28 GMT
It's a difficult balance to strike. But, in my opinion, if the best you can do with David Tennant, who is still a novelty for Big Finish, is pair him with Nyssa, Leela, Ace, etc, than a shake up in the ideas department is desperately needed.
With the amount of audios he's contributed just lately they could have given him a whole season (or even two) with a new companion, and thought a little out of the box for his Doctor. This didn't mean not including the Daleks for an episode or two or an appearance of River Song, but going down the usual Who Incest route feels like a lost opportunity.
Disappointed, but not surprised.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Dec 9, 2020 12:30:50 GMT
I mean, I can understand where you’re coming from, but these are press releases. Naturally they’re going to lean on marketing angles. That’s kind of their job. It doesn’t necessarily follow that the stories themselves do. As I said, I'm reserving judgement on Dalek Universe until it's released, but I do know a brand new series for the Tenth Doctor with fewer returning elements would be preferable over Daleks, Movellans, Davros, Mechanoids, etc. I will undoubtedly enjoy it, but I have a different preference and I think that's the root of the point there. I mean, that doesn’t quite sound like reserving judgement. Actually, that’s probably a bit mean, as I imagine you mean preferable for you, rather than in general. Though I would suggest approaching it with an open mind as I think this stuff is more advancing than you might expect. Bear in mind you don’t really have much info! Basically, you say above that you can have people excited for Daleks, Leela, Movellans etc. Or some who prefer stories to move forward. My argument is that one does not preclude the other. Some stories can be both!
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Dec 9, 2020 12:58:23 GMT
I think we may be talking at cross purposes here, or I wasn't clear enough in my post. Apologies if not. Of course they're going to lean on marketing angles if there are marketing angles to lean on. But before it even gets to marketing, there's the creation of stories and sets and they're where the returning elements spring from. As I mentioned, you can have an original story with a returning element, but it still boils down to another Leela story, etc. You can enjoy the story, but you can also prefer if it was something else, and therefore enjoyed it more as a result. It's different strokes for different folks, as usual. However, 19 Tenth Doctor stories announced this year and perhaps only one doesn't have a returning element, which is the Tenth Doctor side of Echoes of Extinction, which we're told isn't even a Big Finish product and is part of another project. It does feel as though the field isn't as well catered as it perhaps should be. As I said, I'm reserving judgement on Dalek Universe until it's released, but I do know a brand new series for the Tenth Doctor with fewer returning elements would be preferable over Daleks, Movellans, Davros, Mechanoids, etc. I will undoubtedly enjoy it, but I have a different preference and I think that's the root of the point there. We all have different tastes and I personally take no gripes with anyone’s posts and enjoy reading peoples different angles and ideas. For me I love Big Finish output and am very much enjoying the expansion and ideas of new writers I think it is great . And eventually you find a little gem among them all Exactly. & when even a little info gets revealed about an upcoming release it makes sense that people will speculate and/or bring their own thoughts about what they think the story is going to be like. & the phrase 'reserve judgment' is of course only used when people dare to say something negative about an upcoming release. If we all truly did 'reserve judgement' this forum would be a lot less active! It's fun to speculate be that positively or negatively given our own taste.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 9, 2020 13:22:02 GMT
As I said, I'm reserving judgement on Dalek Universe until it's released, but I do know a brand new series for the Tenth Doctor with fewer returning elements would be preferable over Daleks, Movellans, Davros, Mechanoids, etc. I will undoubtedly enjoy it, but I have a different preference and I think that's the root of the point there. I mean, that doesn’t quite sound like reserving judgement. Actually, that’s probably a bit mean, as I imagine you mean preferable for you, rather than in general. Though I would suggest approaching it with an open mind as I think this stuff is more advancing than you might expect. Bear in mind you don’t really have much info! Basically, you say above that you can have people excited for Daleks, Leela, Movellans etc. Or some who prefer stories to move forward. My argument is that one does not preclude the other. Some stories can be both! I didn't think you were being mean, though I think I was fairly explicit that it's preferable for me, rather than in general. Everything I say is my view and I definitely overuse "I" that much to the point where I probably come across as egotistical! I don't think anybody's saying that both can't be done, absolutely they can. In the same way that there's no reason why Dalek Universe couldn't have been nine adventures with Ten, a brand new original companion / character and no returning elements. It's just the fatigue and frustration that kicks in when you see the same old names or returning elements being used. Nobody's right or wrong with their views, it's all down to personal preference. I think fatigue does play a large part because the criticism definitely does come from someone voicing their view that the particular element is overused.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Dec 9, 2020 13:22:29 GMT
We all have different tastes and I personally take no gripes with anyone’s posts and enjoy reading peoples different angles and ideas. For me I love Big Finish output and am very much enjoying the expansion and ideas of new writers I think it is great . And eventually you find a little gem among them all Exactly. & when even a little info gets revealed about an upcoming release it makes sense that people will speculate and/or bring their own thoughts about what they think the story is going to be like. & the phrase 'reserve judgment' is of course only used when people dare to say something negative about an upcoming release. If we all truly did 'reserve judgement' this forum would be a lot less active! It's fun to speculate be that positively or negatively given our own taste. I don’t think it wouldn’t be less active. Speculation and judgement aren’t the same thing, and it’s somewhat disingenuous to suggest they are. And in terms of it only being used when people ‘dare to say something negative’, I wouldn’t say that’s true either. It’s just that pre-judgements do tend to veer on the negative side. There’s a reason people tend not to use the word ‘prejudice’ as a positive trait.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Dec 9, 2020 13:24:42 GMT
I don't think anybody's saying that both can't be done, absolutely they can. In the same way that there's no reason why Dalek Universe couldn't have been nine adventures with Ten, a brand new original companion / character and no returning elements. Well - actually there were reasons why it couldn’t have been (and not just the fact the title would have seemed really weird otherwise). But unfortunately you’re going to have to take my word on that!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 13:32:29 GMT
We all have different tastes and I personally take no gripes with anyone’s posts and enjoy reading peoples different angles and ideas. For me I love Big Finish output and am very much enjoying the expansion and ideas of new writers I think it is great . And eventually you find a little gem among them all Exactly. & when even a little info gets revealed about an upcoming release it makes sense that people will speculate and/or bring their own thoughts about what they think the story is going to be like. & the phrase 'reserve judgment' is of course only used when people dare to say something negative about an upcoming release. If we all truly did 'reserve judgement' this forum would be a lot less active! It's fun to speculate be that positively or negatively given our own taste. Have to agree with you but don’t want that to become a habit lol😉 I actually tend to look at release read the blurb and think aye or nae or can that wait till later lol is that an immediate buy for me or not...I have a few folks who encourage me and that’s what this forum does it encourages me as I rarely find it a negative place to be . I even enjoy when the odd writer pipes in. I wouldn’t say I was a total intellectual that I would dissect something or even fit it into chronology as I can enjoy a release just as an individual story some attract me some don’t some really make me feel total joy and others hate,everyone’s different I accept that.Some stories take a road I don’t personally like but I say that’s not the way I would have taken the character etc...but because it’s WHO I don’t have a problem it’s time travel..it can be rewritten even if only in MY mind and these adventures are in my mind. Do I think writers on Big Finish really go out to give us new angles yes I do and even if they just take original teams and put them into new worlds times for 90% of the time am engaged and in for the ride .For those times I haven’t enjoyed the ride eventually I will go back no think geez why did I not enjoy that originally.Humans let’s be honest we never ever really know what we want for most part we only think we do (or maybe that’s just me)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 13:36:50 GMT
It is so funny after 37 odd years in the NHS I need to go back and sit my English exam again as punctuation has become a thing of the past for me 😂😂😂😂 and I got an A (for those old enough to remember Highers and O Levels
do you think I could write a novel 😂😂😂
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Dec 9, 2020 13:37:15 GMT
Exactly. & when even a little info gets revealed about an upcoming release it makes sense that people will speculate and/or bring their own thoughts about what they think the story is going to be like. & the phrase 'reserve judgment' is of course only used when people dare to say something negative about an upcoming release. If we all truly did 'reserve judgement' this forum would be a lot less active! It's fun to speculate be that positively or negatively given our own taste. Have to agree with you but don’t want that to become a habit lol😉 I actually tend to look at release read the blurb and think aye or nae or can that wait till later lol is that an immediate buy for me or not...I have a few folks who encourage me and that’s what this forum does it encourages me as I rarely find it a negative place to be . I even enjoy when the odd writer pipes in. I wouldn’t say I was a total intellectual that I would dissect something or even fit it into chronology as I can enjoy a release just as an individual story some attract me some don’t some really make me feel total joy and others hate,everyone’s different I accept that.Some stories take a road I don’t personally like but I say that’s not the way I would have taken the character etc...but because it’s WHO I don’t have a problem it’s time travel..it can be rewritten even if only in MY mind and these adventures are in my mind. Do I think writers on Big Finish really go out to give us new angles yes I do and even if they just take original teams and put them into new worlds times for 90% of the time am engaged and in for the ride .For those times I haven’t enjoyed the ride eventually I will go back no think geez why did I not enjoy that originally.Humans let’s be honest we never ever really know what we want for most part we only think we do (or maybe that’s just me) I mean, I am certainly an odd writer. Although - to be clear, no-one has to like the prospect of anything coming out, and if the marketing of the story doesn’t make it appeal to you, fair enough. But I do think deciding what it is in advance is a little unfair.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 13:39:08 GMT
Have to agree with you but don’t want that to become a habit lol😉 I actually tend to look at release read the blurb and think aye or nae or can that wait till later lol is that an immediate buy for me or not...I have a few folks who encourage me and that’s what this forum does it encourages me as I rarely find it a negative place to be . I even enjoy when the odd writer pipes in. I wouldn’t say I was a total intellectual that I would dissect something or even fit it into chronology as I can enjoy a release just as an individual story some attract me some don’t some really make me feel total joy and others hate,everyone’s different I accept that.Some stories take a road I don’t personally like but I say that’s not the way I would have taken the character etc...but because it’s WHO I don’t have a problem it’s time travel..it can be rewritten even if only in MY mind and these adventures are in my mind. Do I think writers on Big Finish really go out to give us new angles yes I do and even if they just take original teams and put them into new worlds times for 90% of the time am engaged and in for the ride .For those times I haven’t enjoyed the ride eventually I will go back no think geez why did I not enjoy that originally.Humans let’s be honest we never ever really know what we want for most part we only think we do (or maybe that’s just me) I mean, I am certainly an odd writer. Although - to be clear, no-one has to like the prospect of anything coming out, and if the marketing of the story doesn’t make it appeal to you, fair enough. But I do think deciding what it is in advance is a little unfair. I got persuaded for Dalek Universe am on board for it and it actually made me go back and enjoy a relistens of the Kingdom box sets too
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Dec 9, 2020 13:39:40 GMT
I mean, I am certainly an odd writer. Although - to be clear, no-one has to like the prospect of anything coming out, and if the marketing of the story doesn’t make it appeal to you, fair enough. But I do think deciding what it is in advance is a little unfair. I got persuaded for Dalek Universe am on board for it and it actually made me go back and enjoy a relistens of the Kingdom box sets too I honest to God think it’s an amazing run. You will not regret it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 13:39:59 GMT
Have to agree with you but don’t want that to become a habit lol😉 I actually tend to look at release read the blurb and think aye or nae or can that wait till later lol is that an immediate buy for me or not...I have a few folks who encourage me and that’s what this forum does it encourages me as I rarely find it a negative place to be . I even enjoy when the odd writer pipes in. I wouldn’t say I was a total intellectual that I would dissect something or even fit it into chronology as I can enjoy a release just as an individual story some attract me some don’t some really make me feel total joy and others hate,everyone’s different I accept that.Some stories take a road I don’t personally like but I say that’s not the way I would have taken the character etc...but because it’s WHO I don’t have a problem it’s time travel..it can be rewritten even if only in MY mind and these adventures are in my mind. Do I think writers on Big Finish really go out to give us new angles yes I do and even if they just take original teams and put them into new worlds times for 90% of the time am engaged and in for the ride .For those times I haven’t enjoyed the ride eventually I will go back no think geez why did I not enjoy that originally.Humans let’s be honest we never ever really know what we want for most part we only think we do (or maybe that’s just me) I mean, I am certainly an odd writer. Although - to be clear, no-one has to like the prospect of anything coming out, and if the marketing of the story doesn’t make it appeal to you, fair enough. But I do think deciding what it is in advance is a little unfair. I got persuaded for Dalek Universe am on board for it and it actually made me go back and enjoy a relistens of the Kingdom box sets too ...yes you are ODD, it is true
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 13:41:52 GMT
I got persuaded for Dalek Universe am on board for it and it actually made me go back and enjoy a relistens of the Kingdom box sets too I honest to God think it’s an amazing run. You will not regret it. Took your word the first time I believe you...and I like to make sure all at BF have bread and butter and toilet paper in their homes
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Dec 9, 2020 14:41:37 GMT
It is so funny after 37 odd years in the NHS I need to go back and sit my English exam again as punctuation has become a thing of the past for me 😂😂😂😂 and I got an A (for those old enough to remember Highers and O Levels do you think I could write a novel 😂😂😂 Hopefully they'll look at your random use of bold text.
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Post by xlozdob on Dec 10, 2020 0:07:15 GMT
I can understand not liking or being tired of some characters, but at least if they're in something you know not to buy, with a new character it's a Russian roulette. I don't think it's difficult to understand in the same way it's not difficult to understand why someone would be excited for Ten to be paired with Leela, Nyssa, River, Ace, K9, Daleks, Movellans, Davros, Mechanoids, Five, Six & Seven, etc. If you've had enough content out of those characters, then you've simply had enough content regardless of the setting or placement for them. Or you could just prefer to move forward, which I appreciate is a very broad term, and not have 19 consecutive Tenth Doctor releases having some returning element. Sometimes it's not down to the returning element as a concept, but rather who they're using. I'm sure there'll be those critical of Dalek Universe but if you instead chucked in Ood, Judoon, Sycorax, etc. then they'd have a different reception because they view it as more of a celebration of the era, and authentic to the era, than looking too backwards. Or equally some have said they'd be all over the Classic Companions set if it was three of the less used characters. It's of course down to personal opinion, but I don't find either side difficult to understand. We don't know that all 12 Dalek Universe stories feature returning elements. I'd be less excited about "era-appropriate" returning elements cause there are fewer new directions you can take those in, you know how those work in this situation. Not that I'm against it, but that sounds to me more like looking backwards and doing the same again and again. It's true, it's down to personal preferences, but I truly can't comprehend how one is better than the other. Speaking for myself, I am bored with some characters who pop up very regularly and would like to see more of the characters who don't pop up as often. Once a character has been well and truly explored and we've seen lots of different sides to them, then I am more interested in exploring other, less developed characters. I'm not attacking or rubbishing any of the actors/companions BF use a lot, I'm very much coming at it from the perspective of "you can have too much of a good thing". So it is a case of having reached saturation point with some characters and/or combos. And, if you think about it logically, one companion being overused means others being underused. And I'd prefer to see more of the underused companions and more original companions.
For instance, Nyssa was in every single Five MR trilogy from 2009 to 2018. There was 10 years between the Nyssa-less Key2Time trilogy in 2009 and the next Nyssa-less trilogy in 2019. I can't be the only one who thinks there was something a bit stale and samey about that.
The companions also enable us to explore the Doctor's character. For instance, you can only learn so much about Seven through his relationship with Ace - there comes a point where if you want to see a new aspect of his character you need a different companion to bring it out. I've said it before, but I think part of the reason Six is so popular on audio is because he has the greatest variety of companions and the most original companions amongst the classic doctors.
In principle I would prefer BF to aim to give roughly equal airtime to all doctors/companions. I understand there are practical constraints due to actor availability and that equal airtime is simply impossible in practice, but looking at BF releases one could be forgiven for thinking that they are not even trying and are instead just providing as much work as possible for their favoured actors/companions. It almost seems as if BF prefer to stick to their comfort zone of the same old same old tried and trusted actors/companions that they are familiar with and comfortable with but some of the listeners are bored silly with.
A change is as good as a rest, as the old saying goes, and some of the overused companions could do with a rest.
I might be biased because I don't listen to every release, especially in the MR, but what makes you (and others, of course) tired of companions or monsters and not the Doctor? Surely the Doctor is much better explored than the companions by now, all 14 incarnations. For some people that's true, and don't buy BF, even if the stories are good. The again, if pairing a Doctor with a different companion can bring out different aspects in them (and we're counting the Doctors as different characters, because if not, then Doctor fatigue should definitely be a thing), then surely pairing a companion with a different Doctor should help explore both in new lights, right? What I'm trying to say is that there's nothing wrong in not liking a certain character or feeling you've had enough of them, but equating those feelings to saying the stories themselves are uninspired, gimmicky and repetitive (I might be exaggerating a bit to make a point), is a bit much. Some people don't buy brilliant stories because they feature a Doctor they can't stand, or perhaps they have the misfortune of loving a Doctor and hating a companion in a certain team, or maybe the don't buy expanded media as a rule. All of those are perfectly acceptable and down to personal taste, but making everything to everyone's liking is nigh impossible, and, as lidar says, most of the times logistics are behind some of the "gimmicks" that inspire a story, making the most of what you have. In my case, the format of the CCs, which was indeed born out of a necessity, wasn't really my cup of tea, so the only ones I have are the ones I felt the story made up for that.
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Post by barnabaslives on Dec 10, 2020 1:35:12 GMT
For something that had such a long time to find its way onto my wishlist, this certainly ended up there fast.
I just wish it weren't scheduled so far off, I feel almost compelled to ask, if only rhetorically, why.
I sincerely hope Big Finish will concede that this has so much potential that it's very much worthy of being more than a one-off, and consider a second set with Jamie, Susan, Romana, Tegan and/or Turlough, or others.
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Post by theillusiveman on Dec 10, 2020 6:20:11 GMT
So far all the tenth Doctor projects: Out of Time Echoes of extinction The Gates of Hell Wink Dalek Universe Volume 1 (3 Episodes) Dalek Universe Volume 2 (3 Episodes) Dalek Universe Volume 3 (3 Episodes) Expiry Dating Ghosts Precious Anhillation Tenth Doctor, Classic Companions (3 Episodes) - seriously needs a better title
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