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Post by Kestrel on Dec 11, 2020 7:42:47 GMT
I've spoken before about how much I adore stories where the Doctor just sits down and talks things out with another character, with very little action, and this story is, essentially, the exact opposite. And I loved every minute of it. Sometimes you just wanna see the Doctor wreck some shit, right?
I also (still) think it's interesting to consider and contrast McGann's performances across these three TLV stories he's recorded. I think my theory on the first story has pretty much born out by now, right? This version of the Doctor is very excited and engaged--but also has an edge. You can really tell that this is the Doctor in his element: he knows what he's doing, he's very good at it, and he enjoys it.
I think I'm gonna have to move 8DTW3 up in my queue, because after this, I am left with a powerful desire for more 8th Doctor in my life.
....
All that said, I wouldn't be me if there weren't at least one thing for me to criticize. And in this case, unsurprisingly, it's the whole TLV premise. I remain unconvinced on the whole concept, and after three full-length audio dramas and two short trips, I really shouldn't be. I'm left, now, thinking the same thing I was after the penultimate story in Shadow of the Daleks 2: they haven't put in the work to justify their premise, and I very much doubt they'll be able to do so at the last minute in the final story.
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Post by theillusiveman on Dec 11, 2020 8:34:06 GMT
In all honesty it was kinda jarring to go from enemy of my enemy to mutually assured destruction they should have maybe have had a couple of flashbacks to scenes in the audio of the all flesh is grass just to add some more context for listeners who haven’t or won’t read the books
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 11, 2020 9:31:40 GMT
I think it would have worked better if the ending to TLV2 had been a bit more ambiguous as to whether or not the Doctor realized the Daleks had betrayed him. Then you could just kind of assume that the ship was damaged due to the Doctor finding out, and turning on the Daleks.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 11, 2020 13:14:29 GMT
Enjoyed this one. It's fun like the previous two stories, not at all story driven, and it's lead by Paul McGann's performance and the varied Dalek voices provided by Nicholas Briggs. You'd be forgiven for thinking he's suffering from a mid-life crisis in this one, with all the back and forth dialogue and quickly changing voices!
I think it's unfortunate that there are no references to All Flesh is Grass, as it does seem rather a sudden introduction to the story. I think had The Enemy of My Enemy not had the Doctor forming an alliance with the Daleks, then you could assume it happened off screen, but I think there's context that's lacking. I don't think it's a fault of the Time Lord Victorious project, rather just a couple of scenes or mentions missing from the audio. It was a little strange that the previous story didn't link to All Flesh is Grass or the behind the scenes made no mention of the order, yet the novel nicely sets up the events of Mutually Assured Destruction.
Overall it's been a fun trilogy. The meat of the Eighth Doctor's involvement is in the novel, as after all that is the actual Time Lord Victorious story, and if you're collecting the whole project then it's nice to see the immediate before and after for him. If not, then you get a fun standalone run of stories that hark back to this incarnations earlier days.
And it leaves open ended for Big Finish to do more with this particular era for the Doctor if they want to.
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Post by sherlock on Dec 13, 2020 0:35:29 GMT
An enjoyable ride as the Dalek Time Squad falls to bits whilst the Doctor gleefully throws fuel onto the fire. Coming off All Flesh is Grass, this is a nice coda wrapping up Eight’s storyline and the Time Squad’s machinations (the internal disputes here follow on nicely from the novel where there’s some clear tensions between the Daleks). Not sure how I would feel being dropped into this story without that context, but I was very glad to have it.
I suspect the companion’s a one-off (similar to the scientist who it’s implied travelled with Seven for a bit during Frozen Time and the Time Lady that Five agrees to give a lift home in Empire of the Racnoss) but she’s there if Big Finish ever wanted a reason to expand their TLV tie-ins, I guess. I wouldn’t object to that.
The Eighth Doctor trilogy was a nice little mini-series all in all. It complements the novels well, has a good performance from McGann and doesn’t overstay it’s welcome. I don’t think I’d recommend buying it in isolation from the rest of the event though, as I certainly felt I got more out of it knowing the wider context.
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Post by barnabaslives on Dec 13, 2020 7:02:24 GMT
I think these have worked well as stand-alone stories, maybe vignettes from a larger story as it were. Obviously something seems to have happened between the last audio and this but there isn't time to be that bothered by it as we're right off into the action and drama.
Overall with the audios in this series it seems like a bit less focus on story or continuity or even suspense (Let me guess, the Time Lord will be Victorious? Where's the suspense in that? lol), and more on just some great moments for the Doctor which I've been much enjoying since the first audio.
Very glad to see Lizzie Hopley's name on the box again. Very talented writer and performer whose work I always enjoy. I'm delighted to see Big Finish noticing.
I'm pretty sure you guys would have me totally sold on the novel - not a bad time at all to curl up with a fiction book to savor - but I think the idea of experiencing DW as print stories has somehow become increasingly foreign to me with every audio and TV episode re-watch. I seem to be increasingly conditioned that whether or not it has pictures, it talks, lol.
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 13, 2020 7:16:12 GMT
I think these have worked well as stand-alone stories, maybe vignettes from a larger story as it were. Definitely. I have so little sense that there's any larger story, I don't really understand why they made such a big hullaballoo about the TLV project. These stories all feel like they could just as easily slot into their respective #DA ranges. Makes me worry that they're leaving way too much of the heavy-lifting for the final 8/10 crossover story.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 13, 2020 8:22:49 GMT
I think these have worked well as stand-alone stories, maybe vignettes from a larger story as it were. Definitely. I have so little sense that there's any larger story, I don't really understand why they made such a big hullaballoo about the TLV project. These stories all feel like they could just as easily slot into their respective #DA ranges. Makes me worry that they're leaving way too much of the heavy-lifting for the final 8/10 crossover story. The Time Lord Victorious story is in the two novels. I think you’re expecting to get the full story from only listening to the audios and you’re not going to get that. It’s a multimedia crossover project. The audios delve into the Eighth Doctor’s involvement in the Dark Times as a result of the Tenth Doctor’s actions. They’ve all been crafted to be standalone if you only want to get specific media, or if you do collect the different products, then you get nice crossovers and references and build up the bigger picture. Genetics of the Daleks, for example, features one of the Daleks of the Time Squad who’s destruction started in All Flesh is Grass and continued in Mutually Assured Destruction. Genetics is standalone but picks up on that. Same goes for the two Short Trips, they’re lovely stories in their own right for fans of the Master, but have elements that crop up in other stories. Echoes of Extinction will serve as a prologue for the Eighth Doctor and an epilogue for the Tenth for the overall project. It’s not a multi-Doctor story.
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 13, 2020 9:00:44 GMT
It's not that I feel like I'm missing the "full story," it's that I don't perceive ANY story. The whole premise of TLV is that the 10th Doctor goes a bit crazy and does something to the Koterruh, who govern death or something, and none of the audios contribute to that arc in any way. We've just got one scene in Genetics that vaguely foreshadows the former element, and the one short trip that introduces the latter element, and nothing else.
I think if the individual stories are indistinguishable from standalone tales, the whole endeavor is a bit of a failure, since TLV is premised on its multimedia interconnectivity.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 13, 2020 10:01:52 GMT
It's not that I feel like I'm missing the "full story," it's that I don't perceive ANY story. The whole premise of TLV is that the 10th Doctor goes a bit crazy and does something to the Koterruh, who govern death or something, and none of the audios contribute to that arc in any way. We've just got one scene in Genetics that vaguely foreshadows the former element, and the one short trip that introduces the latter element, and nothing else. I think if the individual stories are indistinguishable from standalone tales, the whole endeavor is a bit of a failure, since TLV is premised on its multimedia interconnectivity. I think that’s where we differ. I don’t think the endeavour is a failure, nor are the stories indistinguishable from standalone tales. They all exist as a result of the Tenth Doctor’s interfering and actions. Yet if you’re an audio only fan then you have a run of stories that you can digest and enjoy without needing to consume anything else. I think The Enemy of My Enemy and Mutually Assured Destruction should’ve been a bit more explicit, and said as much myself, but given the novels manage it well, I think that’s more Big Finish omitting the information to make them more standalone. TLV is a multimedia project, but equally everything is standalone as to let fans only pursue what they want. You’ve got the actual story contained in the two novels, which lead the initiative, and everything else is events in The Dark Times that connect or lead into the events. I’d have been happy with something more interconnected, but as a first attempt at doing this, I don’t have an issue with what we got. I guess my train of thought is if you want something more connected, then actually pursue the different products. For me, it seems a little weird to bemoan something being standalone when you’re actually only going for those items. I’d have thought that would’ve been preferable. And given your post in the Genetics of the Daleks thread, where you make a suggestion of how TLV should be one set, I think you are coming across as wanting the full story by only purchasing from Big Finish. But as always, it’s very much each to their own.
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Post by IndieMacUser on Dec 13, 2020 14:18:58 GMT
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 14, 2020 5:00:32 GMT
I think that’s where we differ. I don’t think the endeavour is a failure, nor are the stories indistinguishable from standalone tales.... I guess my train of thought is if you want something more connected, then actually pursue the different products. I think you're misunderstanding me a fair bit here. When I say TLV is a bit of a failure, I do not mean that the individual stories don't work (they work just fine, clearly) but that it's failed as a marketing project. The point of a unified multimedia narrative is to encourage consumers to purchase different media in order to fully experience the story. It's a bit trite, but the MCU post-credits stingers a good example of this: scenes in stories that would otherwise be standalone, indicating that they are part of some larger plot involving mysterious characters and hidden agendas. They create a tertiary narrative in the background of the MCU that slowly builds up the dramatic tension for the ultimate payoff in Infinity War and Endgame. the stingers create points of interest in the broader narrative, and TLV is entirely lacking those. In Mutually Assured Destruction, for example, the only extrinsic narrative element is the battle that precipitates the episode, damaging the Dalek ship. Just "a battle." It's too vague an element to elicit any interest. Who's going to listen to this story and thing, "Gee, I really want to know more about that battle!" No one. Space battles are a dime a dozen in this franchise. Likewise with the line Dalek in Genetics. Why should we care about one random Daleks when there's never been a shortage of Daleks? Basically, by trying to avoid alienating audiences who only consume one or two bits of TLV, they've reduced the connectivity to the point where it provides nothing special or interesting to those that consume more. And, frankly, it's pretty absurd to say that I'm somehow in the wrong for expecting the stories to tie in with each other after consuming SIX of them, and that the solution is simply to consume more. No, I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. If TLV wants me to buy the novels or the comics, they should have done something to convince me that they were telling an interesting story elsewhere: they've had six opportunities to do so and blown each one. Because, yes, these stories are indistinguishable from standalone stories. Which is easy enough to demonstrate: take any one of them, delete all of the others, and does anything in the remaining script need to be adjusted to accommodate that loss? I can't think of a single line. EDIT: Also, to be clear, I'm not complaining here nor am I discussing, at all, what I want or don't want out of the TLV project. I don't want anything from it beyond good stories. And TLV has certainly provided good stories, it just hasn't really done anything to justify its own marketing gimmick.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 14, 2020 10:16:54 GMT
I think that’s where we differ. I don’t think the endeavour is a failure, nor are the stories indistinguishable from standalone tales.... I guess my train of thought is if you want something more connected, then actually pursue the different products. I think you're misunderstanding me a fair bit here. When I say TLV is a bit of a failure, I do not mean that the individual stories don't work (they work just fine, clearly) but that it's failed as a marketing project. The point of a unified multimedia narrative is to encourage consumers to purchase different media in order to fully experience the story. It's a bit trite, but the MCU post-credits stingers a good example of this: scenes in stories that would otherwise be standalone, indicating that they are part of some larger plot involving mysterious characters and hidden agendas. They create a tertiary narrative in the background of the MCU that slowly builds up the dramatic tension for the ultimate payoff in Infinity War and Endgame. the stingers create points of interest in the broader narrative, and TLV is entirely lacking those. In Mutually Assured Destruction, for example, the only extrinsic narrative element is the battle that precipitates the episode, damaging the Dalek ship. Just "a battle." It's too vague an element to elicit any interest. Who's going to listen to this story and thing, "Gee, I really want to know more about that battle!" No one. Space battles are a dime a dozen in this franchise. Likewise with the line Dalek in Genetics. Why should we care about one random Daleks when there's never been a shortage of Daleks? Basically, by trying to avoid alienating audiences who only consume one or two bits of TLV, they've reduced the connectivity to the point where it provides nothing special or interesting to those that consume more. And, frankly, it's pretty absurd to say that I'm somehow in the wrong for expecting the stories to tie in with each other after consuming SIX of them, and that the solution is simply to consume more. No, I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. If TLV wants me to buy the novels or the comics, they should have done something to convince me that they were telling an interesting story elsewhere: they've had six opportunities to do so and blown each one. Because, yes, these stories are indistinguishable from standalone stories. Which is easy enough to demonstrate: take any one of them, delete all of the others, and does anything in the remaining script need to be adjusted to accommodate that loss? I can't think of a single line. EDIT: Also, to be clear, I'm not complaining here nor am I discussing, at all, what I want or don't want out of the TLV project. I don't want anything from it beyond good stories. And TLV has certainly provided good stories, it just hasn't really done anything to justify its own marketing gimmick. I don't think it has to encourage consumers to purchase different media. Because that isn't what BBC have tried to do with Time Lord Victorious. They've made everything standalone to be able to consume. Probably because they're not just telling one big story, but rather telling a story as part of an era that they're also exploring. I've said a few times now that I think The Enemy of My Enemy & Mutually Assured Destruction should be more explicit, but I also think that is a Big Finish issue, not anyone else. Titan manages a nice connection to its own range of comics but the Eighth Doctor stuff from Big Finish. BBC Books manage to pick up from the audios and the Ninth Doctor comics, put in a gap for further adventures if needed and also push Eight on into Mutually Assured Destruction seamlessly. Having said that, the Big Finish items do connect to tell their own story. You have the Delgado Master picking up an item that's used in The Enemy of My Enemy. The Dalek Time Squad stuff is picked up in Genetics of the Daleks. All of their contribution tells its own story, except perhaps the Ainley Master Short Trip, which involves the Kotturuh that you can get more of from the novels. Again, I think Big Finish should have linked to the two novels more with their ending of The Enemy of My Enemy and the introduction of Mutually Assured Destruction, but I think that lies with them. Personally, had I not already read one of the books and the comics before Lesser Evils & The Enemy of My Enemy then I'd have definitely been intrigued enough by Brian, the Dalek Time Squad & Kotturuh to pursue the comics and novels and checked out the Daleks! animation. From there, I think the endeavour has more than justified itself. I'd like to see another go at it, perhaps with something more heavily linked this time where you do need to buy the various products. I guess I just don't really understand your point. If you say it's provided good stories, coupled with the fact it does have crossovers with other media outside Big Finish, then I personally don't see why you wouldn't want to check out more based on that. But that's fine, it's each to their own.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 13:11:46 GMT
Lords, well this is something to put on if you can't sleep
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 13:19:23 GMT
Lords, well this is something to put on if you can't sleep Ahhh must be those modulators the Voc Robots are so much more elegant when they want to kill you
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 13:46:06 GMT
Lords, well this is something to put on if you can't sleep Ahhh must be those modulators the Voc Robots are so much more elegant when they want to kill you Friggin heck I was bored to sobs. I put it on to entertain me while I was clearing out the cupboards, turned out that it worked the other way round !
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 14:05:26 GMT
Ahhh must be those modulators the Voc Robots are so much more elegant when they want to kill you Friggin heck I was bored to sobs. I put it on to entertain me while I was clearing out the cupboards, turned out that it worked the other way round ! well Robots 3 part 1 is excellent and directed by your fave 😂😉
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Post by Ian McArdell on Dec 17, 2020 23:21:17 GMT
My take on Mutually Assured Destruction has landed on CultBox: In short, best of the three so far - great fun and stands on its own, as well as throwing a couple of links back to the previous TLV audios. Entertaining, if not essential listening.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2020 14:24:37 GMT
My second story of the TLV well for me there was no continuation of the previous one or mention of what might have occurred after the last story in this one all I could glean was there was a tremendous battle and the Dalek Time Ship was heading towards destruction....it does work on its own though as an action adventure story and am sure over the years I will piece together the entire narrative of TLV time line will I give it a relisten yes probably though am not an great fan of replaying Dalek stories all the time but if am ever in a McGann in crashing spaceship full of `Daleks then this one will fit the bill.These though of the two I have heard have been well acted and well directed am I right that they would have been done under lockdown conditions and if so again,you wouldn’t know.let’s be honest the technology is there and sure has the upper hand in producing tales where other forms have had to fall foul of the virus.
enjoyable tale if only the BF guys had had full control of the Kotturah storyline I am sure it would have made a more involved journey for me
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mbt66
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Post by mbt66 on Mar 14, 2021 22:17:48 GMT
Well who knew we needed catty Daleks and a Smart Alec Doctor. also the Dalek Scientist in Zero G scene Also if this is the end of the 8th Doc's involvement in TLV he's picked up another potential Companion played by one of my Audio crushes Samantha B'eart 5/S Regards mark687 It is indeed the end of the Eighth Doctor’s involvement, unless they go back and add more in. The confirmed order is: Echoes of Extinction He Kills Me, He Kills Me Not The Enemy of My Enemy All Flesh is Grass Mutually Assured Destruction I should have realised that I needed to read the second book before listening to this. But I enjoyed The Enemy of My Enemy so much I wanted to listen to this. I am glad I did, plus I now have an excuse to revisit this once I have read All Flesh is Grass. After a couple of disappointing Time Lord Victorious audio releases these last two with the 8th Doctor and the Daleks have been excellent. It is so great to hear the Eighth Doctor having fun fighting the Daleks
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