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Post by tuigirl on Jan 3, 2021 11:20:11 GMT
On the other hand, I really despise the sledgehammer method of driving a message home. Since I have started re-watching Classic Who, I am used to a more or less subtle approach to present political or environmental messages. And I mainly agree with those. But the way it is handled in series 12 left me with a bad taste, and I actually agreed to the presented messages! No wonder it created so much hate and some of it was so controversial. But I find myself questioning that: Classic Who wasn't that much more subtle in how it handled its political messages. Whether it was the bad guys basically screaming out their political philosophies as their catchphrases (I don't think 'exterminate' or 'don't interfere' or 'you shall be like us' need their origins spelt out), or speeches like Ian's 'Dislike for the Unlike' from Daleks, or even stories where the message is the entire driving force: how would a story like Green Death or Happiness Patrol be misread or otherwise 'vague' in its message and what it's talking about? How could one come away from 'Invasion of the Dinosaurs' and not get the message clear as day? I mean, Sun Makers is ultra-libertarian: it literally ends with Bob Holmes killing the tax man.
My contention here is not that one was more subtle than the other: I instead argue that the definition of 'subtle' in reference to narrative presentation of topics has become weakened through a more colloquial use. This is turn is reinforced by a nostalgic lens that a not unsizeable amount of people never move past with this franchise: if you didn't pick up on the message as an 8 yr old when you first saw the story, then it never existed.
Uhm.... of course this a matter of personal taste and sensibilities.... but do you really think that Orphan 55 comes even close to Green Death and even Invasion of the Dinosaurs?
Watch the ending again. This is what I mean with sledgehammer. It was completely over the top. It is not the yelling of messages. It is the whole delivery. Even the plastic garbage patch episode was much less subtle than Green Death, and Green Death was indeed a little in your face.
Plus, I do NOT have a nostalgic lense. I only started watching Classic Who 3 years ago. I am sorry, maybe I am just not good at describing exactly what I mean....
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 3, 2021 11:25:52 GMT
But I find myself questioning that: Classic Who wasn't that much more subtle in how it handled its political messages. Whether it was the bad guys basically screaming out their political philosophies as their catchphrases (I don't think 'exterminate' or 'don't interfere' or 'you shall be like us' need their origins spelt out), or speeches like Ian's 'Dislike for the Unlike' from Daleks, or even stories where the message is the entire driving force: how would a story like Green Death or Happiness Patrol be misread or otherwise 'vague' in its message and what it's talking about? How could one come away from 'Invasion of the Dinosaurs' and not get the message clear as day? I mean, Sun Makers is ultra-libertarian: it literally ends with Bob Holmes killing the tax man.
My contention here is not that one was more subtle than the other: I instead argue that the definition of 'subtle' in reference to narrative presentation of topics has become weakened through a more colloquial use. This is turn is reinforced by a nostalgic lens that a not unsizeable amount of people never move past with this franchise: if you didn't pick up on the message as an 8 yr old when you first saw the story, then it never existed.
Uhm.... of course this a matter of personal taste and sensibilities.... but do you really think that Orphan 55 comes even close to Green Death and even Invasion of the Dinosaurs?
Watch the ending again. This is what I mean with sledgehammer. It was completely over the top. It is not the yelling of messages. It is the whole delivery. Even the plastic garbage patch episode was much less subtle than Green Death, and Green Death was indeed a little in your face.
Plus, I do NOT have a nostalgic lense. I only started watching Classic Who 3 years ago. I am sorry, maybe I am just not good at describing exactly what I mean....
Now I should be clear: this isn't a defense of quality, by any means. I didn't particularly like 55. Nor was the last paragraph directed towards you: it was a broader statement about the fandom and how it interacts with stories. my entire response there was more about how, I believe, the concept of a 'subtle' message has been skewed through a less rigid definition.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 11:38:07 GMT
I'm enjoying it. I think Series 11, when all this started, had to play certain aspects of the series safe because of the change, but we still got some really great stories in Rosa, Demons of the Punjab and It Takes You Away, and Graham's grief is probably one of the most genuine explorations of loss in the televised series. The scenes of him moving, almost like a stray ship adrift, through the apartment just soaking in all the memories of Grace and her absence is still really powerful. A lot of those stories weren't about monsters from space, but the alienness of human beings towards each other. Altogether quite moving, in their way.
As much as I enjoyed them, though, I do like Series 12's blend of character and high-concept plots, though. There's less... distance, I think is the right word(?), between us and the characters via the ideas. That felt like the season where the Thirteenth Doctor was allowed to step outside box and plant her feet firmly in the earth. The scene of Whittaker running down the beach in South Africa, ripping off her coat and diving into the surf to help a drowning man is perhaps the scene of her incarnation for me. Punchy, powerful and one hell of a way to introduce your hero into the story. We also got some truly deplorable villains in Can You Hear Me? Adversaries that felt dangerous and real, nodding to the celestial entities of the past without explicitly going for a returning face. And the Cyber-trilogy in a single sitting with 5.1 surround sound was a proper event from go-to-whoa. Something that just grabbed you by the collar and didn't let you breathe until the walls came crashing down (literally).
Where does it tend to stumble? Honestly, I think in balancing the big concepts and the characters. That symbiosis. Sometimes the lens is pulled a little too far back and we forget the small joys of just existing with these characters. What Jon Pertwee codified as "moments of charm" (Two and Victoria's conversation in Tomb being one of the best proto-examples). The Doctor playing Snap at the baccarat table in Spyfall being one. The other being odd moments where the Doctor's rendered passive for... reasons that aren't quite readily apparent. She's absentminded, yes, but not to that extent or, at least, not in that particular way. It's noticeable, I think, because often it's a very easy fix. She tries something and it doesn't work or, alternatively, a character asks why she isn't trying something and she tells them she's playing a longer game. On occasions, frustrating, but typically, not overwhelmingly so.
That's all with regard to the Thirteenth Doctor on television, though. I'm still exploring her depiction in the EU stuff with the books, comics and audiobooks. I've rather liked what Scott Gray's been doing with the incarnation over in the DWM comics. They've had a good run over the past couple of incarnations and this most recent block's kept up the trend.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 3, 2021 11:45:52 GMT
I like more of the current era than i dislike. Sure the ball was dropped in a few places, but its really trying something. Just have to wait until Jodie leaves to see if its pulled it off
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Post by mark687 on Jan 3, 2021 14:56:17 GMT
Another Yes/No
I think Chibnail thinks hes smarter than he he is, he cant as easily convey that spark of livability in Who as he can in real life dramas. I bet you the regulars all asked Barrowman where to find the truth in the Role. Also Timeless Child a rod for your own back surely? General TV Audience wont care they'll watch or switch off, and Die Hards are How Dare You! or Show Us knowing it contradicts this, this and this.
Plus side it is watchable and Vinay Patel Eps are the strongest overall since RTD
Regards
mark687
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Post by ollychops on Jan 3, 2021 15:28:04 GMT
It's not really a yes/no question. I lean more towards no, but I'm more mixed. There's some good stuff, but for the most part I find the episodes/characters a bit lifeless. There's not the same spark to it that it had during the RTD/Moffat eras. That being said, I really enjoy the historicals, and I don't think the show has ever looked better than it has.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 15:28:13 GMT
Another Yes/No I think Chibnail thinks hes smarter than he he is, he cant as easily convey that spark of livability in Who as he can in real life dramas. I bet you the regulars all asked Barrowman where to find the truth in the Role. Also Timeless Child a rod for your own back surely? General TV Audience wont care they'll watch or switch off, and Die Hards are How Dare You! or Show Us knowing it contradicts this, this and this. Plus side it is watchable and Vinay Patel Eps are the strongest overall since RTD Regards mark687 And I bet even more none of the regulars would, or need to, ask Barrowman the first thing about acting He's got charisma by the bucketload but he's not gonna be running the RSC anytime soon!
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 3, 2021 16:17:46 GMT
Another Yes/No I think Chibnail thinks hes smarter than he he is, he cant as easily convey that spark of livability in Who as he can in real life dramas. I bet you the regulars all asked Barrowman where to find the truth in the Role. Also Timeless Child a rod for your own back surely? General TV Audience wont care they'll watch or switch off, and Die Hards are How Dare You! or Show Us knowing it contradicts this, this and this. Plus side it is watchable and Vinay Patel Eps are the strongest overall since RTD Regards mark687 he's not gonna be running the RSC anytime soon! Admittedly, it's a pretty funny mental image.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jan 3, 2021 16:37:56 GMT
Well, one thing I can say is that I look forward to the next episode more than I ever have. Part of that is that I'd only caught up to the New Series as it aired with the Twelfth Doctor's last season and building up trust that the show will deliver to a certain standard - so my first season watching there was dread as well as anticipation, lol - but it's also because I generally like what Chibnall's been doing. The show continues to pleasantly surprise me with interesting adventures for Thirteen, and its wonderful to be looking forward to more so much.
I do have my dislikes, but sometimes they belong in a proper context. I think some of the moral lessons feel a bit like being bludgeoned but it may just be because I like to think I don't need them for hopefully being a mature adult, and if feels like it's being written for kids, maybe it is, and it could try to come across childish because of it. Really I'm just as happy if the show goes out of its way to play to younger members of the audience sometimes.
I get the sense if Chibnall doesn't know where the show should go, at least he knows where he wants it to go, and I like that. Whatever I think of the whole Timeless Child business, I like that he followed through on the bit with the flying scaves, which is kind of a contrast to Moffat where things frequently felt like he was test ballooning the audience often and if an idea didn't pick up steam maybe he'd just drop it.
Maybe it's telling in a good way that the Thirteenth Doctor's tenure has help to greatly improve my opinion of Twelve's tenure - not as in "This is terrible, please bring back Capaldi" lol, but whereas I used to feel like Twelve's era was the wrong thing to follow Eleven's, now it feels like Twelve's tenure was the perfect thing to go between those of the Eleventh Doctor and the Thirteenth's, if that makes any sense? Lovely bookends, I guess? lol
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jan 3, 2021 16:43:12 GMT
I bet you the regulars all asked Barrowman where to find the truth in the Role. Thank you for making me laugh out loud!
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jan 4, 2021 16:03:41 GMT
Another Yes/No I think Chibnail thinks hes smarter than he he is, he cant as easily convey that spark of livability in Who as he can in real life dramas. I bet you the regulars all asked Barrowman where to find the truth in the Role. Also Timeless Child a rod for your own back surely? General TV Audience wont care they'll watch or switch off, and Die Hards are How Dare You! or Show Us knowing it contradicts this, this and this. Plus side it is watchable and Vinay Patel Eps are the strongest overall since RTD Regards mark687 That about sums up my view of the Chibnall era and you hit the nail on the head with Timeless Child. Rewriting canon is a no-win for anyone who tries it, so why bother?
Terrance Dicks says in his Whosround that there are 2 types of actor cast to play the Dr - those who are very very good actors and those who were born to play the role. (the first 4 docs plus tenant and Smith were born to play the role in his view). I think that is a distinction that can usefully be made about showrunners in the NuWho era. RTD and Moffatt were born to be DW showrunners and are both, in their own way, pure genius. Chibnall is a very very good writer (as anyone who has watched Broadchurch will know) but he is not in the same league as the other 2
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Post by antartiks on Jan 4, 2021 19:47:06 GMT
I do enjoy the current era, much more so than the Matt Smith era which is probably my least favorite of Doctor Who, period.
I really like Thirteen, Graham, and Yaz still has a lot of potential that I hope will be explored further in the next series. I hated the Timeless Child reveal at first, but I think it could be a breath of fresh air for the show if done well in future series.
I was never a fan of RTD's and Moffat's vision of the Master, but Sacha Dhawan is by far my favorite NuWho Master (Jacobi doesn't count since he's much more Big Finish's Master than NuWho's in my opinion). He can be crazy, but I really love his quieter moments, every time he is on screen he steals the show for me.
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Post by polly on Jan 4, 2021 20:35:05 GMT
I neither like nor dislike it, I suppose, since I chose not to watch the new series anymore. Maybe that means I don't belong in this thread, but if you're looking for a barometer on the reaction to the Jodie era, I think "abstain" is a worthwhile response to explain.
I admit that I was opposed to changing the gender of the Doctor - and that of the Master, for that matter - but that's not a can of worms I necessarily want to argue about. Suffice to say that in isolation, I would have been willing to be open minded. But in practice, it was just the last straw.
You see, Mr Polly and I had just marathoned the bulk of the new series to catch up after "Twice Upon a Time" aired. And both of us got increasingly frustrated with the new series' stylistic foibles after Series 5 or so. Things were too big, too whimsical, there were too many emotional outbursts, the storylines too convoluted, etc. Then Capaldi's finale was, I felt, disrespectful and deliberately misrepresenting what Hartnell's time was actually like.
After all that, a casting decision I didn't agree with plus a showrunner whose previous episodes I didn't like... Well, since Capaldi, his companions, and Steven Moffat were all leaving, it just seemed like a clean break and a good place to say goodbye.
I want to be clear that if you enjoy Jodie and Chibnall, more power to ya. I've not been sitting here seething with anger over it for the last three years, life is too short to waste time and energy on that. I simply lost interest in the franchise going forward over the course of Series 6-10 and decided to tap out. So these days I mostly stick to the Classic Series, Big Finish, and sometimes a bit of the RTD days.
Will I come back? Maybe. But it would take a new showrunner and good word of mouth to lure me in again.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jan 6, 2021 0:02:34 GMT
Hello again.
I am afraid I feel that while some of Mr Chibnall's decisions and writing have been interesting, I am not wholly engaged by this era. This is not the first time this has happened. Series 7B and Series 9 were also eras I found hard to get enthusiastic about. With Mr Chibnall, as has been pointed out, he is a good writer, but writing Doctor Who is difficult. There are so many things to consider, to balance. He did make things difficult for himself by having three companions. Also some commentators, have said that Chibnall tends to do a lot of telling rather than showing.
The biggest example of this is the Master's lovely narration of the new backstory for the Doctor. Season 12 is better, more consistent and has some really atmospheric and involving stories but they tend not to be written by Mr Chibnall himself. My favourite episodes from both seasons include Rosa, Demons of the Punjab, the weird It Takes You Away and The Haunting of Villa Diodati.
Mr Chibnall's more effective episodes tend to take successful elements from other stories and blend them together to create a new story. Spyfall and Revolution of the Daleks are prime examples of this. It is hard to think of completely original Doctor Who stories after nearly 60 years of story-telling. However, if you are going to borrow and blend, you need to create something really effective.
I was so disappointed by The Timeless Child, not for the canon-changing though. What really annoyed me was the lack of development for Doctor Ruth after her wonderful introduction in Fugitive, the poor use of Ashad who was a really brilliant villain in Villa, the passivity of the Doctor and that really dumb Timelord/Cyberman concept.
Doctor Who needs a strong creative team. In Mr Moffatt's time I felt, at times, he needed another creative added to the mix and I feel that a two person creative engine would perhaps work better next time. I feel having taken the brave step of casting a female Doctor, Mr Chibnall should have invited a female writer to work on the whole season with him as joint showrunner. In the first season, particularly the Doctor's characterisation felt very clunky. Series 12 was much better. This Doctor was still rainbows, but with more grit and steel underneath. She felt more believable. I'm hoping series 13 will continue this development further and Doctor 13 will really come into her own.
I feel the choice of showrunner next time is crucial. Maybe it needs someone who is not steeped in Doctor Who,an outsider who is an effective writer with experience of running their own series. I wonder if Debbie Moon would be a good choice. Her series for CBBC Wolfblood, was probably the best children's drama I've seen for a while. Or Emma Reeves, co-writer and creator of EVE, another children's series about a artificial intelligence. Also, the showrunner should not write so many episodes so that they don't get overwhelmed.
No one who takes on Doctor Who sets out to produce 'bad' tv and Series 11 and 12 have had some really great moments. Doctor Who is one of the most analysed programmes on television. You are never going to please everyone, and having said I find this era unengaging, I am still looking forward to series 13. Why? Because this programme still has the potential to surprise and entertain. I've just watched episodes 6,7 and 8 from series 12 and found things to enjoy in each of them.
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melkur
Chancellery Guard
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Post by melkur on Jan 6, 2021 0:44:17 GMT
I'm a little 50/50, but it's 'warming on me', shall we say.
I wasn't really a fan of series 11 when it first aired (like Capaldi's first series, it felt a little... 'Hit & miss' for me, but both I now at least have an 'appreciation' for) - There were episodes that I did like, but there were also episodes that nearly lost me (Kill The Moon / Tsuranga)...
I will say though that I did really enjoy series 12, and found it to be a step back in the right direction. I wasn't really a fan of "the twist" of 'The Timeless Children', I'm at least willing to see where it's going...
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