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Post by Kestrel on Jan 7, 2021 8:15:30 GMT
Another one for the Index.
I see we also need a thread for the Maltese Penguin... well, its time will come.
So: The Holy Terror: best Frobisher episode, or worst Frobisher episode?
I don't typically go for the pure-comedies, as a totally humorous script seldom has enough to it to warrant 30 minutes of time, let alone two full hours. The Maltese Penguin worked well because it embraced the heightened melodrama of the noir thriller in order to balance out the inherent absurdity of starring a shapeshifting, alien penguin. The Holy Terror, meanwhile, is much more about the silly.
And... I think it works, pretty well? The ultimate payoff in the ending doesn't quite feel fully earned to me, but I enjoyed the ride. For the life of me I can't figure out why Frobisher never made a third appearance--he's such a fantastically fun character! And very Douglas Adams-y.
If any of y'all were around back when these stories were new, was there any fan backlash? I can only imagine that perhaps the juxtaposition between so silly a companion for the 6th Doctor, when Colin Baker was only beginning to establish his (very deserved) reputation as one of the best Doctors, and the much more serious, dramatic companion of Evelyn Smythe (introduced less than a year prior) might have been off-putting. Or perhaps Big Finish simply wanted to prioritize pairing Sixie with Evelyn because she was that good?
Though neither potential explanation feels very persuasive to me. Why not pair Frobisher with the 7th Doctor? That'd've great. Or the 8th Doctor--I imagine he'd do well with McGann and Fisher. Such a shame that the Monthly Range is ending in just a few weeks, and we've only had a single outing with Frobisher.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 7, 2021 12:11:40 GMT
ALL HAIL THE BIG TALKING BIRD!!!!
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shutupbanks
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There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 7, 2021 15:02:31 GMT
Worth it for Frobisher alone. The story itself is great but I never got the sense of foreboding and terror that others have gotten from it. It is beautifully put together though, with a lot of elements that I enjoy, just not my cup of scary tea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2021 22:43:14 GMT
Worth it for Frobisher alone. The story itself is great but I never got the sense of foreboding and terror that others have gotten from it. It is beautifully put together though, with a lot of elements that I enjoy, just not my cup of scary tea. I think, for me, the atmosphere was a combination of things, but the most evocative was Russell Stone's score. A lot of similarities there to the soundtracks of Torment or Diablo II. That knowing, melancholy sweep of synthesisers punctuated by what sounds like the teeth of a music box trying to dig its way through the drum. Actually... The more I think about it, the more the music feels like a living thing in its own right (rather fitting for a Rob Shearman script). Not just commentating on what we're hearing, but what we're not seeing, as well. Interesting coming back to it after reading the comics. It's a compelling story in its own right and the tone is very much Shearman's own, but there are little Steve Parkhouse-like touches in how the elements were chosen. |
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Post by slithe on Jan 9, 2021 9:31:07 GMT
An amazing story, which is certainly one of the highlights of the early run of the MR. Interestingly, it was initially offered to Tom Baker, but I think it works just as well, if not better, with Colin Baker.
There's so much in here that the story replays several listens. You have the religious angle and the issues of religious fundamentalism (how prescient they would become in the months after this release), the way in which people are stereotypes/stock characters (do we do X because we have always done it) and the way in which we treat people/criminals. Tacitius' story is tragic and watching him transform from the bumbling, if not genial, scribe into the child killer is very powerful. The final episode is very dark and effective - this is the Sixth Doctor we should have seen on TV - the Doctor may be outraged but never loses his moral compass and sense of decency.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but the child calling for his father is eerily reminiscent of the Empty Child - I wonder if this served as an inspiration for that script.
I like Frobisher in this - he is light hearted and stops this from being too dark.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 9:32:25 GMT
It shouldn’t work 😂 but it does I never knew the comic book origins of Frobisher but I like the two tales
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 3:12:04 GMT
An amazing story, which is certainly one of the highlights of the early run of the MR. Interestingly, it was initially offered to Tom Baker, but I think it works just as well, if not better, with Colin Baker. There's so much in here that the story replays several listens. You have the religious angle and the issues of religious fundamentalism (how prescient they would become in the months after this release), the way in which people are stereotypes/stock characters (do we do X because we have always done it) and the way in which we treat people/criminals. Tacitius' story is tragic and watching him transform from the bumbling, if not genial, scribe into the child killer is very powerful. The final episode is very dark and effective - this is the Sixth Doctor we should have seen on TV - the Doctor may be outraged but never loses his moral compass and sense of decency. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but the child calling for his father is eerily reminiscent of the Empty Child - I wonder if this served as an inspiration for that script. I like Frobisher in this - he is light hearted and stops this from being too dark. It was cited as his favourite Sixth Doctor story in one of DWM's issues, so it's certainly a possibility. |
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Post by davygallagher on Jan 10, 2021 3:40:35 GMT
An amazing story, which is certainly one of the highlights of the early run of the MR. Interestingly, it was initially offered to Tom Baker, but I think it works just as well, if not better, with Colin Baker. There's so much in here that the story replays several listens. You have the religious angle and the issues of religious fundamentalism (how prescient they would become in the months after this release), the way in which people are stereotypes/stock characters (do we do X because we have always done it) and the way in which we treat people/criminals. Tacitius' story is tragic and watching him transform from the bumbling, if not genial, scribe into the child killer is very powerful. The final episode is very dark and effective - this is the Sixth Doctor we should have seen on TV - the Doctor may be outraged but never loses his moral compass and sense of decency. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but the child calling for his father is eerily reminiscent of the Empty Child - I wonder if this served as an inspiration for that script. I like Frobisher in this - he is light hearted and stops this from being too dark. It was cited as his favourite Sixth Doctor story in one of DWM's issues, so it's certainly a possibility. For years I've cited it as my favourite Doctor Who story in any medium. It's got EVERY facet of the show's possibilities, embraces them fully, shows them off perfectly and has Colin showing just how quickly he was going to do everything in his power to "redeem" his Doctor to the fandom (subjective love of the character aside for many of us). I think it's now been superseded in my favourite ever stakes by The Doctor Falls but both are beyond top tier. They're my Doctor Who guiding lights. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 4:24:55 GMT
It was cited as his favourite Sixth Doctor story in one of DWM's issues, so it's certainly a possibility. For years I've cited it as my favourite Doctor Who story in any medium. It's got EVERY facet of the show's possibilities, embraces them fully, shows them off perfectly and has Colin showing just how quickly he was going to do everything in his power to "redeem" his Doctor to the fandom (subjective love of the character aside for many of us). I think it's now been superseded in my favourite ever stakes by The Doctor Falls but both are beyond top tier. They're my Doctor Who guiding lights. It folds into that foundation of the show extremely well. From Day 1, it's always been about expanding the format of what a sci-fi can do. Yesterday was Paris, tomorrow is Kembel and today is Vortis. It looks at the whole concept of genre and goes: "Yes, I understand that, but... Why do I have to pick just one?" As a result, you get a protagonist and a status quo that fits both everywhere and absolutely nowhere. The reason why, for me, The Holy Terror remains as striking as it was back in 2000 is because Shakespearean tragicomedy is still quite rare. We don't stumble across it terribly often inside of Who, never mind beyond it. The guest cast of stock characters gaining a cognisance (almost an existential dread) beyond their function within the story is a nice little nod to a real phenomenon. Characters taking on lives of their own. Well and truly beyond the intent of the storyteller. Exaggerated to the point that everyone is questioning the impositions placed upon them, including Frobisher which the castle tries to blend into the scenario. The only one who never truly has to face that choice is the Doctor. He's never forced to wear a mask as he's already taken on a life of his own (almost half-a-dozen times over). So, when we get to the end of the story, the Doctor is the one to break the cycle of violence. Not with a pistol or a dagger, but with his words and his observations. The castle never became a part of his world and it never really made him a part of it, so only he was able to, finally, free Tacitus of it. You can't get any more Doctor-ish than that. |
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 10, 2021 6:53:04 GMT
An amazing story, which is certainly one of the highlights of the early run of the MR. Interestingly, it was initially offered to Tom Baker, but I think it works just as well, if not better, with Colin Baker. Definitely. Of all the actors to play the Doctor, I think Colin Baker has the best range. By which I mean he works just as well in the absolutely absurd, totally silly stories as he does in the serious, high-minded dramatic stories. Not to keep harping on Doctor Who and the Pirates, but I think that story is really indicative of his range as an actor, as it allows him to play several different "types" of Doctor in the same story. Like, you know how there are some story ideas that make you think of particular Doctors? Like, this would be a good story for Pertwee; or, this would be a good story for Capaldi? Colin Baker can handle any story perfectly. And, I'd argue, he's especially good with the more absurd stuff, like Frobisher. The whole talking penguin thing just doesn't work as well with McGann, you know? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 11:23:48 GMT
Just an absolute joy from start to finish. The Doctor, so flippant and silly to begin with, is genuinely moved by his experiences in this one. Frobisher, who could have been written as a simple cartoon comedy foil, is so much more than that. The dark humour at the story's start simply become dark (and bloody) as time goes on. I think Rob Shearman said in an interview he felt this was too violent in places: I (very) respectfully disagree - everything about it is pitched perfectly, from the casting and the sound design to the revelation at the end. We feel for these characters, and are profoundly affected by what happens to them. Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. I know the magnificent Chimes of Midnight gets all the plaudits, but for me, this is the one!
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Stevo
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Post by Stevo on Jan 10, 2021 11:34:56 GMT
An amazing story, which is certainly one of the highlights of the early run of the MR. Interestingly, it was initially offered to Tom Baker, but I think it works just as well, if not better, with Colin Baker. I just could not imagine The Holy Terror as a Fourth Doctor story in any way!
Fortunately what we got was a very enjoyable Sixth Doctor & Frobisher adventure, which has become a MR classic. I doubt any other Doctor could have made it any better. |
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jan 10, 2021 12:50:54 GMT
Interestingly, it was initially offered to Tom Baker I just could not imagine The Holy Terror as a Fourth Doctor story in any way!
I think "The Stones of Venice" was originally pitched to Tom Baker. Do we know if any other stories were amongst the slate that he rejected on BF's initial approach to him?
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 10, 2021 15:25:55 GMT
Wait, what's this? Are you saying Tom Baker refused to work with Big Finish after seeing several story ideas for potential story ideas? That's... very interesting. Especially given how vocal Colin Baker has been about just refusing to record anything that failed to live up to a certain level of quality. I'd love to know what those stories were.
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Stevo
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Post by Stevo on Jan 10, 2021 15:42:55 GMT
Wait, what's this? Are you saying Tom Baker refused to work with Big Finish after seeing several story ideas for potential story ideas? That's... very interesting. The story goes that Tom threw the sample scripts in a bin, but that might be anecdotal... or it just might have been said by Tom for laughs at a convention. But yes, Tom Baker did originally turn Big Finish down after seeing some story ideas. |
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Post by mark687 on Jan 14, 2021 12:51:26 GMT
Love this its unique and yet at the same time quintessential Who.
Starts off as the excellent dark comedy and commentary on faith and ends up as a very dark human drama.
Interestingly I think 6th is the best Classic Doc for this (perfect mix of simcre and cinisism ). This could be re-done though very well with 12th.
Personally I find Frobisher just a cherry on this.
Hidden Scene/Outtake after Coming Soon Trailer at the End a Pop/Dance Anthem version of "All Hail The Big Talking Bird"
Regards
mark687
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Post by grinch on Jan 14, 2021 12:54:46 GMT
It’s superb. Couldn’t add anything else that hasn’t been said before.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2021 12:55:34 GMT
Love this its unique and yet at the same time quintessential Who. Starts off as the excellent dark comedy and commentary on faith and ends up as a very dark human drama. Interestingly I think 6th is the best Classic Doc for this (perfect mix of simcre and cinisism ). This could be re-done though very well with 12th. Personally I find Frobisher just a cherry on this. Regards mark687 12 and Frobisher! Now that would be interesting? (There would have to be a Torchwood Children of Earth reference too surely - John Frobisher and Frobisher the shape shifting penguin - i love it!) But yes i echo much of the same thoughts, one of the best, that opening scene especially always sticks out in my mind. Great stuff. |
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Post by mark687 on Jan 14, 2021 12:58:40 GMT
Love this its unique and yet at the same time quintessential Who. Starts off as the excellent dark comedy and commentary on faith and ends up as a very dark human drama. Interestingly I think 6th is the best Classic Doc for this (perfect mix of simcre and cinisism ). This could be re-done though very well with 12th. Personally I find Frobisher just a cherry on this. Regards mark687 12 and Frobisher! Now that would be interesting? (There would have to be a Torchwood Children of Earth reference too surely - John Frobisher and Frobisher the shape shifting penguin - i love it!) But yes i echo much of the same thoughts, one of the best, that opening scene especially always sticks out in my mind. Great stuff. Double Capaldi! LOL  Regards mark687 |
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Post by slithe on Jan 16, 2021 9:45:41 GMT
This would be good with Capaldi - the 12th Doctor works well in this I feel. There's a lot of similarities between Sixie and the 12th Doctor.
If I'm honest, I still prefer this with Colin Baker - it just feels right with the Sixth Doctor here, if that makes sense?
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