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Post by Kestrel on Jan 13, 2021 7:41:16 GMT
So maybe this premise is a bit reductive, but that can be fun at times, right? Simply: what do you think the best Master story is, and why? Across all mediums, not just audio (but if you choose a non-audio story, maybe also mention your fav. audio story, too?). I ask this question because I recently listened to a story that had me thinking, "holy ****, this is the best Master story, isn't it?" just 10 minutes in. And I'll certainly have more to say about it, specifically, when I post my comments on the boxset as a whole, but for now I'll simply say... Gallifrey: Time War 1's " The Devil You Know" has got to be, at the very least, one of the very best stories featuring the Master to date. Holy cow is it perfect! I'll try to avoid specific spoilers, but let's go into a quick run-down of why I think it works so well: - Derek Jacobi.
- Louise Jameson.
- Derek Jacobi and Louise Jameson.
- Okay, I did that for effect, but seriously: these are two of the finest actors in the franchise, with two of the most iconic and well-established characters, and their chemistry together is just perfect. Even when they're not even in the same scene together, their proximity imbues their dialog with extra layers of meaning--like Leela's impassioned attempts to convince another character that there are good Time Lords, all the while the Master is in the next room, alone with another character.
- The sheer delight of the Master. In this story, the Master is having fun. He's positively giddy. Early on in the "mission," he starts laughing--a genuine, honest-to-god belly laugh. You can just tell that he's having the absolute time of his life. And if the Master if having so much fun, you can be sure that very soon no one else will be having any....
- And the crux of it all: the honesty. The Master is remarkably open and honest here. He admits to his plotting, openly; he calls himself evil; he shoots people without hesitation or any attempt at subterfuge. This is an iteration of the Master who is so utterly confident, so absolutely in his element, that he doesn't feel the need to hide anything--he's playing poker with his cards facing the other way and winning every hand.
It is, frankly, incredible. And what makes it all work so brilliantly is that the script is really good, consistently delivering fantastic lines for both the Master and Leela. Honestly, I found myself smiling at every line--every single word was perfect.
I honestly can't imagine how any of the subsequent Gallifrey: Time War stories could possibly top this. They used the Master too early, and too well. Ah well, guess I'll find out soon enough....
Anyway, that's my opinion... today, at least. What's yours? What do you think the best Master story is?
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 13, 2021 17:59:22 GMT
I am very fond of the 3rd Doctor era featuring Jo and the Master. They are all quite enjoyable. But I think my favorites there are Sea Devils and Mind of Evil. I adore Mind of Evil.
The War Master series has been in a league on its own, however, while these are VERY good, some of it is not what I can enjoyable. It is just to dark and cruel. Same goes for the Beevers short trip, which again, is fantastic, but hits very close to home.
For pure enjoyment, I would go with the Missy series. I like Missy. And I especially LOVE 12th Doctor series 10 (TV), and the Magician's apprentice two parter and of course the Doctor Falls final two parter were my favorite modern Master stories.
I just cannot stand the Simm Master, I am afraid, although he was much better in the final hours of series 10.
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Post by masterdoctor on Jan 13, 2021 18:10:55 GMT
I genuinely think the Master/Missy, in all incarnations, are the best villian on Doctor Who. So with that, I have so many fav stories. I’m away from my computer so will give more detailed thoughts in a later edit but the list right now is
- The Mind of Evil - Colony of Space - The Dæmons - Frontier in Space - The Deadly Assassin - The Keeper of Traken - Survival - The TV Movie - Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords - Dark Water/Death in Heaven - World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls - Spyfall - Ascension of the Cybermen/Timeless Children - Dust Breeding - Master - I am The Master - Planet of Dust - Day of the Master - Master of Callous - Missy Series 1 and 2 - The Devil You Know - The Bekdel Test - The Lifeboat and the Deathboat - Animal Instinct - Concealed Weapon The best is probably Master of Callous however
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Jan 13, 2021 18:17:48 GMT
I dont really watch TV DW so cant really comment on those, but my personal favourite is Dust Breeding.
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Post by theillusiveman on Jan 15, 2021 0:35:45 GMT
Hard to really pick which is the best master story I’d probarly have to choose it by actor:
Dreyfus: The Destination Wars- While being the first master who has since left Gallifrey and hasn’t developed into the more evil personality that his future incarnations have, here the master is less violent and more after his own self interests, his personality and mannerisms help mirror the early first doctor and how similar they both are at their earliest points of life
Delgardo: hard to say as I haven’t really seen most of his adventures on tv but it’s a toss up between the mind of evil and the claws of Axoe as the first one shows him at his most sauve
Beevers: Master (2003) a great story showcasing what could have been for The Master was a good person, it also shows the roots of the Doctor and masters friendship and what ties them together, the story is a darker version of human nature which yeah I’m all for
Ainley- Survival as this is the story in which most of the tremas master is less pantomime and really showcases how his master could be deadly
Roberts- The enemy within The TV movie captured how aggressive, blood thirsty and terrifying the master can be as he has the most own screen kills, his scene in the tardis with Chang lee and how he can hypnotise him without even a word can show how scary he can be, plus he kills the doctors companions and almost wins the day Plus the infamous I always dress for the occasion line
Jacobi- really hard to think of one as he is brilliant in the role I’ll go with the master of callous
Simm- the doctor falls easily the best performance of Simm
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 1:36:46 GMT
I really love dark water/death in heaven and world enough in time is also really good (doctor falls is pretty good)
I also really like the series 3 three parter, Utopia especially even though theres only a few bits of master.
The tv movie is great, campy fun, as is the Roberts master.
A lot of ainley stuff is pretty meh to me, id say survival or logopolis are probs his best though i haven’t seen them in forever.
Keeper i haven’t seen in ages so cant comment on beavers yet and pratt is great in deadly assassin, i think the best parts of that story though are dependent of the master.
Onto Delgado theres so many i love! Mind of Evil might be my favourite of all time answering the question, its so good. Really encapsulates delgado and acts as a proper introduction in my eyes as hes somewhat overshadowed by the autons in his first story. But Claws is also great as is the sea devils. Hell, id argue nearly every story of his is elevated by him being there.
That brings us on to big finish which has some obvious winners.
Master is the clear obvious one and may be one of the best of all time too. A stella performance by beavers (a reverse human nature is a very apt way of describing it)
The war master only the good and the war master of callous are also both amazing storys, those 8 storys may be one of big finishes strongest runs ever (the first two episodes of rage of the time lords are also pretty stellar)
Missy series 1 is pretty good with the broken clock being phenomenal although i think i enjoyed that story for reasons other than the master a bit like the deadly assassin and so calling it my favourite master story would be somewhat dishonest.
The destination wars was fine.
So in conclusion, i guess id say its a three way tie between Dark Water/Death In Heaven, The mind of evil and The War Master:Only the Good and gun to my head i would probs pick Only the Good which for my money is one of the best who stories ever.
Overtly long Master overview is over.
(P.s. Shoutout to Girl Power and teddy sparkles must die)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2021 11:54:15 GMT
The best Master for me is Roger Delgado. He might have only featured in eight stories before his untimely death but Roger's Master set the standard for crazy taking over the universe schemes and general galactic villainy.
Roger Delgado looked evil, sounded evil-ish and his Master was the template for others to follow as The Doctor's archenemy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2021 19:53:20 GMT
KEEPER OF TRAKEN-because I got two Masters in the one story 😍
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 17, 2021 23:59:10 GMT
On telly: Mind of Evil: plot, counter-plot, the Master shows weakness, he shows cunning. He’s cool and collected on the surface and feral underneath. On audio: Master of Callous: see above with the added dimension of seeing his softer side (even at his worst, no Master would willingly, no matter the plan, play a clown at a child’s birthday party unless they wanted to and his comments about the flower at the end) and that glorious moment you realise that the governor had gone just too far....
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Post by constonks on Jan 18, 2021 0:31:41 GMT
Master and The Master of Callous - both discussed by others above.
But also: The Sky Man, where the Master just sits to the side and watches a world collapse, while his "companion" tries to help. & Mastermind, an absolutely wonderful example of the Master, in a position of weakness and captivity, using his manipulative skills to turn things around to his advantage. & The Two Masters trilogy, which I find it hard to talk about without spoiling something! It's Macqueen. It's Beevers. They're great apart, they're great together.
Then there's the three books I consider a "Master in jail" trilogy - The Face of the Enemy, Harvest of Time and Who Killed Kennedy. The Master as UNIT's scientific advisor, the Master as a gestalt entity, the Master as a behind-the-scenes manipulator, vicious murderer and known world criminal.
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 19, 2021 10:45:23 GMT
Okay, time to come clean: half the motivation for this thread was to decide which !aster stories to rewatch/relisten to (there has got to be a less awkward way to say that, yeesh.) The best Master for me is Roger Delgado. He might have only featured in eight stories before his untimely death but Roger's Master set the standard for crazy taking over the universe schemes and general galactic villainy.
Roger Delgado looked evil, sounded evil-ish and his Master was the template for others to follow as The Doctor's archenemy.
I mean... you're not wrong. Personally I find it helpful to view the !aster less as a single character, and more as three different characters. Because, let's be honest, there are really three different types of Master (so far): - The Master of Camp: an almost cartoonish, comic-bookish villain. A mustache-twirling, Snidely Whiplash-type (no, I don't know the reference, either) who exists to chew on the scenery. Best known for fantastic villain laughs. EG Delgado, Beevers.
- The Master of Villainy: calculating and cruel. They are a problem to be overcome, or a storm to be endured. Best known for random acts of unexpected violence. EG Jacobi.
- The Master of Madness: they're insane, often manic, and unpredictable. They are possessed and utterly uninhibited. Best known for being able to flip between different mental states at the drop of a pin. EG Simm, Gomez.
The only one I'd have trouble classifying is the McQueen Master, mostly because he hasn't left a strong impression on me... it seems like he's maybe stuck in-between a Type-1 and Type-2? What do y'all think? Where does each actor fit? Or do you think I've missed a type? Or misidentified a type?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 11:13:10 GMT
Okay, time to come clean: half the motivation for this thread was to decide which !aster stories to rewatch/relisten to (there has got to be a less awkward way to say that, yeesh.) The best Master for me is Roger Delgado. He might have only featured in eight stories before his untimely death but Roger's Master set the standard for crazy taking over the universe schemes and general galactic villainy.
Roger Delgado looked evil, sounded evil-ish and his Master was the template for others to follow as The Doctor's archenemy.
I mean... you're not wrong. Personally I find it helpful to view the !aster less as a single character, and more as three different characters. Because, let's be honest, there are really three different types of Master (so far): - The Master of Camp: an almost cartoonish, comic-bookish villain. A mustache-twirling, Snidely Whiplash-type (no, I don't know the reference, either) who exists to chew on the scenery. Best known for fantastic villain laughs. EG Delgado, Beevers.
- The Master of Villainy: calculating and cruel. They are a problem to be overcome, or a storm to be endured. Best known for random acts of unexpected violence. EG Jacobi.
- The Master of Madness: they're insane, often manic, and unpredictable. They are possessed and utterly uninhibited. Best known for being able to flip between different mental states at the drop of a pin. EG Simm, Gomez.
The only one I'd have trouble classifying is the McQueen Master, mostly because he hasn't left a strong impression on me... it seems like he's maybe stuck in-between a Type-1 and Type-2? What do y'all think? Where does each actor fit? Or do you think I've missed a type? Or misidentified a type?
I think the inspiration or origin is in the Perils of Pauline/Damsel in Distress silent & early talkie movie tropes. Certainly Terrance Dicks referred to the Perils of Pauline in some context in interviews. The moustache twirling villain dressed in black, usually with a top hat, tying the damsel to the railway line. There is also an element in the animated offshoot of Terry Thomas professional mischief maker in Dastardly & Muttley which was a near contemporaneous revival of the type. It seemed that the character of the Master became even more like this with Anthony Ainley, especially with his sneering chuckle.
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 20, 2021 9:08:31 GMT
Hokey Smokes! Snidely Whiplash...that takes me back. The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show...Dudley Do-Right's arch nemesis...and on reflection a definitive Delgado Master tribute. Happier, simpler days... EDIT : turns out that Snidely goes back as far as the 1950's..which would make Delgado's Master a definitive Snidely Whiplash tribute! View Attachment I KNEW IT!!!!!! I didn't know it, but I knew it! Totally forgot about Dudley, but I definitely made the Rocky and Bullwinkle association in my head. Only I thought, no, the bad guy was named Boris!
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