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Post by grinch on Apr 17, 2021 13:24:13 GMT
I just was in Facebook and read the epic comment battle between Nick and one of the reviewers on there. So some reviewer gave a less favourable review and Nick... objected. I have not listened to this yet, but from what everybody writes here, this cannot be too bad... One quote from Nick: 'I mostly don't read reviews - except the extracts I read out on the BF Podcast, which are all positive ones pre-selected for me by someone else,' speaks volumes, I think. Should a writer be shielded from negative reviews? Should reviewers not be allowed to post negativity? If so, what is the point of reviewing anything? John Ainsworth also leaps to Nick's defence in the comments section, too. All because a reviewer doesn't like a story. I'm not sure it is necessary to be so publicly defensive about one's work, if I'm honest. It’s a tough one, isn’t it? Nobody likes to be slagged off especially when it comes to something you’ve put a lot of work into but I feel like you almost have to detach one’s self when reading negative reviews. Just have to remember it’s not you they have a problem with but rather the story itself. Not to mention, for every person who didn’t like the story there’s probably a great many who enjoyed it. Can’t please everyone after all. Or maybe just don’t read any of the reviews at all. That’s a valid and completely fair option in itself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 13:40:00 GMT
One quote from Nick: 'I mostly don't read reviews - except the extracts I read out on the BF Podcast, which are all positive ones pre-selected for me by someone else,' speaks volumes, I think. Should a writer be shielded from negative reviews? Should reviewers not be allowed to post negativity? If so, what is the point of reviewing anything? John Ainsworth also leaps to Nick's defence in the comments section, too. All because a reviewer doesn't like a story. I'm not sure it is necessary to be so publicly defensive about one's work, if I'm honest. It’s a tough one, isn’t it? Nobody likes to be slagged off especially when it comes to something you’ve put a lot of work into but I feel like you almost have to detach one’s self when reading negative reviews. Just have to remember it’s not you they have a problem with but rather the story itself. Not to mention, for every person who didn’t like the story there’s probably a great many who enjoyed it. Can’t please everyone after all. Or maybe just don’t read any of the reviews at all. That’s a valid and completely fair option in itself. To be fair to Nick, he did sign off by saying it was late at night, he was tired and best wishes to everyone.
Even so, I'm reminded of a Vincent Price film Theatre of Blood, where ham Shakesperean actor Edward Lionheart fakes his own death and then comes 'back' to get revenge on the reviewers that he felt unfairly derided his performances. The moral of that film is - as you say, grinch - don't reviews of your work. Doesn't put you in a very sympathetic light.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 17, 2021 13:45:15 GMT
I just was in Facebook and read the epic comment battle between Nick and one of the reviewers on there. So some reviewer gave a less favourable review and Nick... objected. I have not listened to this yet, but from what everybody writes here, this cannot be too bad... Oh I love it when Nick loses it with Reviewers it is on the main BF FB Page? This time he would be justified IMO I should add. Regards mark687
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Post by theillusiveman on Apr 17, 2021 14:03:44 GMT
I just was in Facebook and read the epic comment battle between Nick and one of the reviewers on there. So some reviewer gave a less favourable review and Nick... objected. I have not listened to this yet, but from what everybody writes here, this cannot be too bad... One quote from Nick: 'I mostly don't read reviews - except the extracts I read out on the BF Podcast, which are all positive ones pre-selected for me by someone else,' speaks volumes, I think. Should a writer be shielded from negative reviews? Should reviewers not be allowed to post negativity? If so, what is the point of reviewing anything? John Ainsworth also leaps to Nick's defence in the comments section, too. All because a reviewer doesn't like a story. I'm not sure it is necessary to be so publicly defensive about one's work, if I'm honest.
Edited to go further, because this has riled me a bit. Nick Briggs didn't mind having a go at Paul Magrs writing on a podcast some while back, concerning The Boy that Time Forgot. Neither was he hesitant to point out how he felt he had to give notes to Marc Platt's Night of the Stormcrow. Fair enough, as director, that may be described as part of his job, but not necessarily to broadcast his doubts about Platt's story on the CD Extras. None of this would matter if Nick wasn't so sensitive to criticism himself.
It's all part of the game though isn't it: write a positive review for everything we do, and we'll mention your blog on our podcast/website. Makes business sense, but I'm not sure it's ethical - at worst, it is stifling freedom of speech. With this, and a few other exchanges Nick has put himself forward for - and I must say I am often a fan of his work - I am reminded of the (Dalek) Emperor's new clothes. Fair enough, he puts his 'heart and soul' into his writing, but he is hardly unique in that.
Anyway, genuinely sorry for the deviation, but I had to get that off my chest. In a quote from the Daleks themselves in Parting of the Ways: "Worship him!"
Dont feel bad for deviating from the topic but this is a really interesting and important thing to discuss since Nick Briggs is the co-executive producer and one of the creative heads behind Big Finish and its direction of Doctor Who at Big Finish, if what Nick says that all the reviews read out on The Big Finish Podcast are all positive and per-selected then what makes you think the reviews can be trusted? i mean look at Doctor Who Magazine all the reviews on there don't even give constructive or critical or anything its all generic and sterile. Yes i can understand people being jerks online saying negative stuff without going into detail- i get that but the people who generally care about the franchise and the audios which have objective and constructive criticism shouldn't be ignored and if they are then Big Finish is building itself an echo chamber and the company and the quality is going to suffer for it.
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Post by thelonecenturion on Apr 17, 2021 14:08:01 GMT
One quote from Nick: 'I mostly don't read reviews - except the extracts I read out on the BF Podcast, which are all positive ones pre-selected for me by someone else,' speaks volumes, I think. Should a writer be shielded from negative reviews? Should reviewers not be allowed to post negativity? If so, what is the point of reviewing anything? John Ainsworth also leaps to Nick's defence in the comments section, too. All because a reviewer doesn't like a story. I'm not sure it is necessary to be so publicly defensive about one's work, if I'm honest.
Edited to go further, because this has riled me a bit. Nick Briggs didn't mind having a go at Paul Magrs writing on a podcast some while back, concerning The Boy that Time Forgot. Neither was he hesitant to point out how he felt he had to give notes to Marc Platt's Night of the Stormcrow. Fair enough, as director, that may be described as part of his job, but not necessarily to broadcast his doubts about Platt's story on the CD Extras. None of this would matter if Nick wasn't so sensitive to criticism himself.
It's all part of the game though isn't it: write a positive review for everything we do, and we'll mention your blog on our podcast/website. Makes business sense, but I'm not sure it's ethical - at worst, it is stifling freedom of speech. With this, and a few other exchanges Nick has put himself forward for - and I must say I am often a fan of his work - I am reminded of the (Dalek) Emperor's new clothes. Fair enough, he puts his 'heart and soul' into his writing, but he is hardly unique in that.
Anyway, genuinely sorry for the deviation, but I had to get that off my chest. In a quote from the Daleks themselves in Parting of the Ways: "Worship him!"
Dont feel bad for deviating from the topic but this is a really interesting and important thing to discuss since Nick Briggs is the co-executive producer and one of the creative heads behind Big Finish and its direction of Doctor Who at Big Finish, if what Nick says that all the reviews read out on The Big Finish Podcast are all positive and per-selected then what makes you think the reviews can be trusted? i mean look at Doctor Who Magazine all the reviews on there don't even give constructive or critical or anything its all generic and sterile. Yes i can understand people being jerks online saying negative stuff without going into detail- i get that but the people who generally care about the franchise and the audios which have objective and constructive criticism shouldn't be ignored and if they are then Big Finish is building itself an echo chamber and the company and the quality is going to suffer for it. Actually, since Jamie Lenman took over the audio reviews for DWM, they've become a lot more precise, actually focussing on specific positives and negatives. I think it's completely fair that on the podcast they only read out the positive reviews though, because as they've said on there before, it would be pretty poor advertising (which is essentially what the podcast is) if they read out bad reviews.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 14:14:25 GMT
I just was in Facebook and read the epic comment battle between Nick and one of the reviewers on there. So some reviewer gave a less favourable review and Nick... objected. I have not listened to this yet, but from what everybody writes here, this cannot be too bad... Oh I love it when Nick loses it with Reviewers it is on the main BF FB Page? This time he would be justified IMO I should add. Regards mark687
What are Regen Reviews to do in future? Think, 'oh, it's a Nick Briggs script, so we'd better post something favourable or he'll get cross?'
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Post by grinch on Apr 17, 2021 14:22:42 GMT
Oh I love it when Nick loses it with Reviewers it is on the main BF FB Page? This time he would be justified IMO I should add. Regards mark687
What are Regen Reviews to do in future? Think, 'oh, it's a Nick Briggs script, so we'd better post something favourable or he'll get cross?'
Rather cutting in places but it seemed a fair review to me.
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Post by theillusiveman on Apr 17, 2021 14:29:04 GMT
Oh I love it when Nick loses it with Reviewers it is on the main BF FB Page? This time he would be justified IMO I should add. Regards mark687
What are Regen Reviews to do in future? Think, 'oh, it's a Nick Briggs script, so we'd better post something favourable or he'll get cross?'
Yikes
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Post by mark687 on Apr 17, 2021 14:30:12 GMT
Oh I love it when Nick loses it with Reviewers it is on the main BF FB Page? This time he would be justified IMO I should add. Regards mark687
What are Regen Reviews to do in future? Think, 'oh, it's a Nick Briggs script, so we'd better post something favourable or he'll get cross?'
Thanks for Sharing Off the cuff No Filter immediate Response aside I think the rest from Briggs is reasonable as I don't think he was attempting to show off with this story at all. Caveret NBs sign off was a bit unnecessary maybe Regards mark687
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Post by thelonecenturion on Apr 17, 2021 14:42:43 GMT
Oh I love it when Nick loses it with Reviewers it is on the main BF FB Page? This time he would be justified IMO I should add. Regards mark687
What are Regen Reviews to do in future? Think, 'oh, it's a Nick Briggs script, so we'd better post something favourable or he'll get cross?' The review seems to be fair enough but the wording is a little rude. "Lackluster", "basic", and "something to listen to in the background" aren't fair ways of describing the story imo, and I think Briggs is justified when he says that it's not that he doesn't want people to have a negative opinion, but if it's something he's proud of and he thinks the negative review is unjust, he's going to express his views on that person's review, however Briggs was also quite rude, which also wasn't fair.
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Post by shallacatop on Apr 17, 2021 15:14:13 GMT
I think the wording of the review is a bit hyperbolic (in the same way when someone rattles off random words and then gives it top marks, it’s not exclusive to critical comments), but I don’t think the review is scathing and indeed it gets a more than respectable score.
The “delusions of grandeur” are similar to my own thoughts, albeit I don’t think I was as blunt; it’s not a sequel to Death to the Daleks, it’s not a prequel to Dalek Universe and it doesn’t really establish the relationship between Anya & Mark Seven. Again, I wouldn’t use that wording, but given these are various elements used to promote the release, and it doesn’t really meet any of them, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable comment.
Essentially it boils down to playground tittle tattle; if someone is critical about Briggs’ work, he’s critical about them. The difference being he was more personal to the reviewer than they were to him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 15:46:19 GMT
What are Regen Reviews to do in future? Think, 'oh, it's a Nick Briggs script, so we'd better post something favourable or he'll get cross?'
Right... So if you produced a body of work..let's say an audio story based on a popular franchise for example, and I came along and critiqued it using such comments as... "A standard serial hiding in the hyped-up guise of wanting to be something bigger in regards to the extended universe." "A necessary listen in regards to what it wants to be? Absolutely not." "A lackluster core script is about as basic as you could ask for to where it’s more appropriate as something to hear in the background rather than something you absolutely have to pay attention to." If you do choose to pick this one up an average sequel to a substandard adventure; nothing more and nothing less despite its obvious delusions of intentional grandeur." ...are you honestly going to say you wouldn't react badly? That the red mist wouldn't descend, you'd resist being baited and just think "gosh, that's fair comment! Thanks awfully Brig!". Seriously? There is a fine line between reviewing something critically and producing a review either for clickbait or to throw a bone to those people who for some reason have developed an almost rabid dislike of Big Finish's Executive Producer (perhaps one day someone will explain that to me). The reviewer didn't just cross the line he ran over it as fast as he could. Read the full review and tell me exactly what is being more heavily critiqued here - the audio play...or the audio writer? (HINT : It's NOT the play). How else can you explain something that uses comments like that and still manages to award it 7 out of 10! As for the Podcast only using positive reviews...c'mon...it is a business trying to sell a product. Of course they are going to only use positive reviews! Have you ever bought anything based on a negative review? Of course I've read the review, I would hardly be commenting on it if I hadn't. "What's being critiqued here - the audio play...or the audio writer? (HINT : It's NOT the play)." Don't be so patronising as to ask me a question and then answer it for me.
As a business selling a product, yes of course I appreciate they're only going to promote it with positive reviews. Again, please don't patronise. I have some understanding of how business works, that's why I described it as 'playing the game'. But the writer of the product, who doesn't get shown the negative reviews, cannot assume that there are no negative reviews. Or perhaps he does. I don't know.
The fact that The Dalek Protocol is awarded 7 out of 10 surely proves the reviewer doesn't have some personal grudge against Nick Briggs. It seems to me the comments are about the story, and the ambition of the story, but needn't be attributed to the writer, other than that he is the writer.
Would I react badly if my work had been reviewed in such a way? For a start, apart from the review not being complimentary a lot of the time, I have read a lot worse. I've seen far more personal and abusive Facebook/Twitter/Gallifrey Base comments too - but not every writer receiving the abuse has felt the need to publicly abuse those making the comments.
Have I ever bought anything based on a negative review? Probably not, but I've certainly bought many things despite a negative review. While other people's opinions may occasionally be useful, I don't let them dictate what I enjoy. Creed of the Kromon, to use an example, has hardly ever had a good a word said about it. Doesn't stop me enjoying it though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 15:49:00 GMT
I think criticism gives a sense of balance when reading reviews. When only praise is selected for quotations, one distrusts the message as being selective. I bought a load of back-issues of DWM in binders a few years back, which covered around the time of series 1 & 3 of the revived TV show, and they were quite honest in their view that the Monthly Range was in a bit of a doldrums. It may have seemed a harsh comparison reading in contrast to the elation at the success of of the new TV show, but looking at our own reviews and elsewhere, they were just being honest. What they said still holds true. Though we still choose to make up our own minds.
Constructive criticism is useful to act upon as a form of feedback, but I agree with others here that I have no appetite for negativity and desultory language to summarise the hard work people have put into something.
But lets be honest with ourselves, does negative reviews put us off listening to, or buying something from BF? Probably not, as we learn of the tastes of other listeners and trust our own preferences. What is not another listeners kind of thing may well be our kind of Doctor Who. Look at the debates around box set arcs, spin offs, self contained releases, returning villains such as the Daleks. Sometimes negative feedback from one reviewer may alert us that it may actually be worth checking out, as one has a different preference, with all due respect to that person.
Its only the very few cases, such as Nekromanteia, that a majority of listeners may be broadly correct in their judgement.
But as others rightly acknowledge, Nick cannot really publicly cite negativity when discussing the work of people in his team. And when did one ever read the back of a paperback book only to see quotes discouraging readers to buy?
Perhaps though, if he used the podcast to defend the works in response to any significant critique, this would work to his advantage and a way to counter argue. But then again, there is a case where many online bloggers and reviewers do not warrant the airtime. Oftentimes perpetual sourpusses are just a pain in the posterior.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 21:09:12 GMT
Well this thread sure livened up today... I think we all know that Nick doesn't like "Moaning Minnie's", but 7/10 is a good rating for a story so Nick probably should have just took a deep breath and said nothing. You can't please everyone so just please yourself!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 21:29:46 GMT
Well this thread sure livened up today... I think we all know that Nick doesn't like "Moaning Minnie's", but 7/10 is a good rating for a story so Nick probably should have just took a deep breath and said nothing. You can't please everyone so just please yourself! Maybe I should have taken that advice too! Ah well.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 18, 2021 0:50:42 GMT
I just was in Facebook and read the epic comment battle between Nick and one of the reviewers on there. So some reviewer gave a less favourable review and Nick... objected. I have not listened to this yet, but from what everybody writes here, this cannot be too bad... Oh I love it when Nick loses it with Reviewers it is on the main BF FB Page? This time he would be justified IMO I should add. Regards mark687 I don’t think he was: the review, while not entirely complimentary, wasn’t that harsh on the production. It said some nice things about the entirety of the product and gave some genuine criticism about where it didn’t work in the reviewers opinion. Mr Briggs jumping in in the way he did was a real overreaction to what was, essentially, a review that could have been a lot more vicious.
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Post by cwm on Apr 18, 2021 7:59:34 GMT
Nick does not come out of this well. Petty and thin-skinned at best.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2021 8:11:42 GMT
What are Regen Reviews to do in future? Think, 'oh, it's a Nick Briggs script, so we'd better post something favourable or he'll get cross?'
Right... So if you produced a body of work..let's say an audio story based on a popular franchise for example, and I came along and critiqued it using such comments as... "A standard serial hiding in the hyped-up guise of wanting to be something bigger in regards to the extended universe." "A necessary listen in regards to what it wants to be? Absolutely not." "A lackluster core script is about as basic as you could ask for to where it’s more appropriate as something to hear in the background rather than something you absolutely have to pay attention to." If you do choose to pick this one up an average sequel to a substandard adventure; nothing more and nothing less despite its obvious delusions of intentional grandeur." ...are you honestly going to say you wouldn't react badly? That the red mist wouldn't descend, you'd resist being baited and just think "gosh, that's fair comment! Thanks awfully Brig!". Seriously? There is a fine line between reviewing something critically and producing a review either for clickbait or to throw a bone to those people who for some reason have developed an almost rabid dislike of Big Finish's Executive Producer (perhaps one day someone will explain that to me). The reviewer didn't just cross that line he ran over it as fast as he could. Read the full review and tell me exactly what is being more heavily critiqued here - the audio play...or the audio writer? (HINT : It's NOT the play). How else can you explain something that uses comments like that and still manages to award the production 7 out of 10! As for the Podcast only using positive reviews...c'mon...it is a business trying to sell a product. Of course they are going to only use positive reviews! Have you ever bought anything based on a negative review? Geez what did I miss...I really enjoyed the release 😂 and also when am tired and worn out...I shut up 😉 best way
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Apr 18, 2021 9:00:21 GMT
It’s a lovely steak pie of an audio. You get exactly what you expected. It’s filling. It’s perfectly fit for purpose. I enjoyed it. Briggs’ Belal was evocative. The soundscape mesmerising. But ... some days I don’t want a steak pie. Some days I do. It’s not a chicken burger and chips like Master of Callous, but it’s not a slice of white bread and cheese either.
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Post by penguintim on Apr 18, 2021 9:48:49 GMT
If I was a 59 year year old man with decades of writing experience I would simply not have a hissy fit in response to somebody giving a mildly negative review of some of my work. R.I.P. to Nick Briggs but I'm different.
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