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Post by Ela on Sept 25, 2016 19:24:57 GMT
I've never had a problem admitting plotholes in Classic Who, its just they are everywhere in NuWho! NuWho fans can't admit there are plotholes in NuWho! Meh, that's not true. It's not even true here and it's definitely not true in general. We have discussed plot holes and analyzed them and tried to explain them away (ha!) in both old and new Who for years. We know you don't care for new Who, Paul. (I refuse to call it nuWho, lol!) But sometimes I wonder if you are so intent on proving to us that new Who is "all bad all the time" that you don't notice when we fans of new (and old) Who are critical of some aspect of new Who. Or maybe you just blip over it. We all do that, especially when we are intent on making a point. I know I've done it in the past.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 25, 2016 20:47:57 GMT
I've never had a problem admitting plotholes in Classic Who, its just they are everywhere in NuWho! NuWho fans can't admit there are plotholes in NuWho! Meh, that's not true. It's not even true here and it's definitely not true in general. We have discussed plot holes and analyzed them and tried to explain them away (ha!) in both old and new Who for years. We know you don't care for new Who, Paul. (I refuse to call it nuWho, lol!) But sometimes I wonder if you are so intent on proving to us that new Who is "all bad all the time" that you don't notice when we fans of new (and old) Who are critical of some aspect of new Who. Or maybe you just blip over it. We all do that, especially when we are intent on making a point. I know I've done it in the past. But, NuWho fans don't admit plotholes. They fill in the blanks with anything, so they don't believe it to be a plothole. If an episode has a plothole, its cause its badly written. True of many Moffat produced episodes. They're in denial. For example - How did the confessional dial get to Gallifrey? How did the Doctor and Clara leave the Doctors own timeline? How did the hologram Doctor operate the computer in Before the Flood?
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Post by Ela on Sept 25, 2016 20:52:28 GMT
Meh, that's not true. It's not even true here and it's definitely not true in general. We have discussed plot holes and analyzed them and tried to explain them away (ha!) in both old and new Who for years. We know you don't care for new Who, Paul. (I refuse to call it nuWho, lol!) But sometimes I wonder if you are so intent on proving to us that new Who is "all bad all the time" that you don't notice when we fans of new (and old) Who are critical of some aspect of new Who. Or maybe you just blip over it. We all do that, especially when we are intent on making a point. I know I've done it in the past. But, NuWho fans don't admit plotholes. They fill in the blanks with anything, so they don't believe it to be a plothole. If an episode has a plothole, its cause its badly written. True of many Moffat produced episodes. They're in denial. This is untrue. And if you can't see it's untrue, than I don't see any point in further discussion. I'm out.
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Post by coffeeaddict on Sept 25, 2016 20:56:08 GMT
Meh, that's not true. It's not even true here and it's definitely not true in general. We have discussed plot holes and analyzed them and tried to explain them away (ha!) in both old and new Who for years. We know you don't care for new Who, Paul. (I refuse to call it nuWho, lol!) But sometimes I wonder if you are so intent on proving to us that new Who is "all bad all the time" that you don't notice when we fans of new (and old) Who are critical of some aspect of new Who. Or maybe you just blip over it. We all do that, especially when we are intent on making a point. I know I've done it in the past. But, NuWho fans don't admit plotholes. They fill in the blanks with anything, so they don't believe it to be a plothole. If an episode has a plothole, its cause its badly written. True of many Moffat produced episodes. They're in denial. I'm afraid I have to disagree as that is a blanket statement and doesn't apply to all fans. Some of us just can't be bothered to dwell on them and look for things we like about the show and focus on them. Others as you've stated may be in denial. In all honesty if you look at most shows that make it past a couple of years there are plot holes - honestly you'd get them even if all episodes were written by the same person, though possibly not as quickly as when there are different writers on a weekly basis. Frankly, when stuff like that creates so strong a reaction that you become incapable of enjoying the show, perhaps it is time to watch something else.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 23:41:28 GMT
There's no evidence that Moffat no longer gives a damn what he's writing. I would say he cares very much. But his vision differs from yours. I'd have to agree with this. Even when I am cringing at something in the New Series or trying on a daily basis to figure out exactly what New Who has done to upset me now, I really do have the impression that RTD & SM have both put a lot into trying to consistently make a good show. I'm sure assaulting their character really isn't fair. Nah. My motto is that if it has to be negative hate the work and not the writer. I try to use the term Moffat like Gloucester (as in representative of), certainly the production team have their own ideas of what the show should be, but I think the main weakness of the Moffat era is one that was slowly and inevitably pushing through into the forefront for RTD as well in his time. Attrition. The poor man's run out of steam. He has ideas but doesn't know how to go about implementing them. You can see that happening during Capaldi's era, where almost every kind of story is thrown at the wall to see what sticks. The upside is that you're bound to find something you like, but the downside is that there is no real sense of cohesion. Then you get what happened last year with an attempt to move back into classic Who format that confused Newgoers and didn't really draw back classic series fans either, so it was too much in the other direction. You can tell with stories like Listen, The Name of the Doctor and Hell Bent he was trying to put his own stamp on the series mythology, but I think he's done all he can do and having him bow out now is a good idea. It's been a long run with plenty for people to enjoy if they like his style. Roll on Chibnall and whatever he may bring.
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Post by icecreamdf on Sept 26, 2016 4:28:12 GMT
Meh, that's not true. It's not even true here and it's definitely not true in general. We have discussed plot holes and analyzed them and tried to explain them away (ha!) in both old and new Who for years. We know you don't care for new Who, Paul. (I refuse to call it nuWho, lol!) But sometimes I wonder if you are so intent on proving to us that new Who is "all bad all the time" that you don't notice when we fans of new (and old) Who are critical of some aspect of new Who. Or maybe you just blip over it. We all do that, especially when we are intent on making a point. I know I've done it in the past. But, NuWho fans don't admit plotholes. They fill in the blanks with anything, so they don't believe it to be a plothole. Well, yeah. That's what scifi fans do. We also do that for the plothole filled Classic Series ( cough season 6b cough). Explaining away the plotholes is half the fun of watching a show like Doctor Who.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Sept 26, 2016 4:29:19 GMT
How did the Doctor and Clara leave the Doctors own timeline? How did the hologram Doctor operate the computer in Before the Flood? In the four billion years it was in operation Missy took it there. Taxi. Hard light hologram.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2016 5:19:45 GMT
But, NuWho fans don't admit plotholes. They fill in the blanks with anything, so they don't believe it to be a plothole. Well, yeah. That's what scifi fans do. We also do that for the plothole filled Classic Series ( cough season 6b cough). Explaining away the plotholes is half the fun of watching a show like Doctor Who. Yeah, I'd even dare say that the mistakes give us a bit of wiggle room to play around and invent new tales. The Doctor and Clara escaping the events they trapped themselves in with The Name of the Doctor is a perfect example because of the amount of time that's passed between one instance and the other. I highly suspect that not only was the War Doctor a side effect of Eleven tampering with his own biodata (side stepping the rather paradoxical "He was always there," mentality), but he also inadvertently (or maybe deliberately) set in motion the events of The Day of the Doctor. "Not now," was what he said, he was expecting it to happen sometime. There is definitely a story in there somewhere.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 26, 2016 11:06:04 GMT
But, NuWho fans don't admit plotholes. They fill in the blanks with anything, so they don't believe it to be a plothole. Well, yeah. That's what scifi fans do. We also do that for the plothole filled Classic Series ( cough season 6b cough). Explaining away the plotholes is half the fun of watching a show like Doctor Who. (Cough) Season 6B was only created after the series was cancelled. (cough) And, another huge gaping plot hole - How does the Matt Smith remember the events of Day of the Doctor, when the Capaldi Doctor was involved with events?
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Post by icecreamdf on Sept 26, 2016 14:04:49 GMT
Well, yeah. That's what scifi fans do. We also do that for the plothole filled Classic Series ( cough season 6b cough). Explaining away the plotholes is half the fun of watching a show like Doctor Who. (Cough) Season 6B was only created after the series was cancelled. (cough) And, another huge gaping plot hole - How does the Matt Smith remember the events of Day of the Doctor, when the Capaldi Doctor was involved with events? Yeah, 6B was created later. That's the point. The Two Doctors was filled with plot holes, so fans invented an entire new season to explain away the plot holes. The Eleventh Doctor never actually interacted with the Twelfth Doctor, so there was no problem.
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Post by kalendorf on Sept 26, 2016 14:51:16 GMT
The Master's a woman because regeneration is random But the problem for me is the Master's regeneration into Missy wasn't random, it was clearly very deliberately done for the shock revelation that this mysterious woman was the Master all along. When I can see that kind of authorial intent for audience reaction in the story that blatantly drawing attention to itself, to me it breaks the fiction. On paper maybe he wasn't complicated, but I do think Delgado brought him to life brilliantly and made him real, despite his apparent lack of dimension, with all the cliches that make the Master, wrapped up in a very deceptive, strong, mystical presence and will. The things he did were means to an intriguing and coherent ambition, and sometimes that meant that a part of you secretly wanted him to win. Gomez is a fine actress and definitely gets into the spirit of the role, but for me it's as though the Master's character traits are thrown in the viewer's face in a kind of 'this is what the Master always did so she's doing it now!', 'Don't you get that she's the Master?' and for me that's when I don't see a natural continuation of the character but a construction from a particularly cynical Who fan guide book of what his characteristics and cliches were. Classic Who usually played by the rule of 'never ask the audience to believe too many impossible things at a time.' I don't think the current show has abided by that rule. I've enjoyed certain fan films that tried the Doctor turned female as a novelty, and thought maybe it would be quite a fun idea. But now that it's canonised as a possibility, I can no longer believe the show the same way. In canonical TV terms though we're being suddenly asked to believe it's possible now and always has been, even after thirteen consistently male regenerations of the Doctor so far which have apparently been retconned into having been 'a fluke' each time. That's where my suspension of disbelief gets strained. But it's also that, well we're being asked to trust that such a monumental, unprecedented change just happened off-screen. It's not just that the Master can regenerate into a woman, so much as that some random woman can turn up and claim to have been the Master all along. Just like moments later, Clara can claim to have been the Doctor all along. That's when for me the narrative goes from far-fetched into downright unreliable anymore, ergo I stop believing and stop caring.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 26, 2016 16:26:34 GMT
(Cough) Season 6B was only created after the series was cancelled. (cough) And, another huge gaping plot hole - How does the Matt Smith remember the events of Day of the Doctor, when the Capaldi Doctor was involved with events? Yeah, 6B was created later. That's the point. The Two Doctors was filled with plot holes, so fans invented an entire new season to explain away the plot holes. The Eleventh Doctor never actually interacted with the Twelfth Doctor, so there was no problem. Please explain the plotholes!
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Post by jasonward on Sept 26, 2016 17:01:08 GMT
The Master's a woman because regeneration is random But the problem for me is the Master's regeneration into Missy wasn't random, it was clearly very deliberately done for the shock revelation that this mysterious woman was the Master all along. When I can see that kind of authorial intent for audience reaction in the story that blatantly drawing attention to itself, to me it breaks the fiction. You appear to be confusing in story elements (randomness involved in regeneration) with real world elements (author intent). Practically, if not actually, nothing written by an author is random, it was all written for some intent or other, even if what is written about is random, or has some randomness. The randomiser used by the Doctor, never, not once actually caused any randomness from the authors perspective, only from the in story universes perspective, The Master regenerating into a female version is no different from that.
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Post by icecreamdf on Sept 26, 2016 18:11:31 GMT
Yeah, 6B was created later. That's the point. The Two Doctors was filled with plot holes, so fans invented an entire new season to explain away the plot holes. The Eleventh Doctor never actually interacted with the Twelfth Doctor, so there was no problem. Please explain the plotholes! Jamie knew who the Time Lords were, even though he'd never heard of them in The War Games. The Doctor was working for the Time Lords, even though he was on the run from them at the time. The TARDIS had the wrong interior. The Doctor could control the TARDIS. The Doctor had that remote control thingy, which he never had at that point in the show. I could go on.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 26, 2016 18:51:15 GMT
Please explain the plotholes! Jamie knew who the Time Lords were, even though he'd never heard of them in The War Games. The Doctor was working for the Time Lords, even though he was on the run from them at the time. The TARDIS had the wrong interior. The Doctor could control the TARDIS. The Doctor had that remote control thingy, which he never had at that point in the show. I could go on. 1 - The TimeLords send the Doctor on a special mission. We already know from The War Games, that the TimeLords can erase memories. So its no stretch to the imagination that after the mission, both could have had their memories erased/altered after the mission. Because, as you said Jamie doesn't know who the TimeLords are until The War Games. 2 - Special Mission, The Doctor has helped the TimeLords before in, The Three Doctors. 3- Not really an issue, considering how much it would have cost to build a new Troughton console. 4 - Special Mission, and whose to say its not the Doctors TARDIS. 5 - Only for this SPECIAL MISSION. These "plotholes" are tiny issues that don't affect the story. Every episode of NuWho I've watched from series 8 and 9 have blatant plotholes! Huge gaps! Left unexplained!
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Post by kalendorf on Sept 26, 2016 18:54:05 GMT
Please explain the plotholes! Jamie knew who the Time Lords were, even though he'd never heard of them in The War Games. The Doctor was working for the Time Lords, even though he was on the run from them at the time. The TARDIS had the wrong interior. The Doctor could control the TARDIS. The Doctor had that remote control thingy, which he never had at that point in the show. I could go on. They're more continuity errors and aesthetic mistakes than plot-holes though. They may clash with the plots of stories prior but aren't plot-holes in and of that particular serial.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 26, 2016 19:03:06 GMT
How did the Doctor and Clara leave the Doctors own timeline? How did the hologram Doctor operate the computer in Before the Flood? In the four billion years it was in operation Missy took it there. Taxi. Hard light hologram. How do you know Missy took it there? Really? How do you know it was a "Hard light hologram"? Whatever that is?
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Post by icecreamdf on Sept 26, 2016 19:29:20 GMT
Jamie knew who the Time Lords were, even though he'd never heard of them in The War Games. The Doctor was working for the Time Lords, even though he was on the run from them at the time. The TARDIS had the wrong interior. The Doctor could control the TARDIS. The Doctor had that remote control thingy, which he never had at that point in the show. I could go on. 1 - The TimeLords send the Doctor on a special mission. We already know from The War Games, that the TimeLords can erase memories. So its no stretch to the imagination that after the mission, both could have had their memories erased/altered after the mission. Because, as you said Jamie doesn't know who the TimeLords are until The War Games. 2 - Special Mission, The Doctor has helped the TimeLords before in, The Three Doctors. 3- Not really an issue, considering how much it would have cost to build a new Troughton console. 4 - Special Mission, and whose to say its not the Doctors TARDIS. 5 - Only for this SPECIAL MISSION. These "plotholes" are tiny issues that don't affect the story. Every episode of NuWho I've watched from series 8 and 9 have blatant plotholes! Huge gaps! Left unexplained! Now who's explaining away plot holes and pretending they don't exist?
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 26, 2016 19:54:22 GMT
1 - The TimeLords send the Doctor on a special mission. We already know from The War Games, that the TimeLords can erase memories. So its no stretch to the imagination that after the mission, both could have had their memories erased/altered after the mission. Because, as you said Jamie doesn't know who the TimeLords are until The War Games. 2 - Special Mission, The Doctor has helped the TimeLords before in, The Three Doctors. 3- Not really an issue, considering how much it would have cost to build a new Troughton console. 4 - Special Mission, and whose to say its not the Doctors TARDIS. 5 - Only for this SPECIAL MISSION. These "plotholes" are tiny issues that don't affect the story. Every episode of NuWho I've watched from series 8 and 9 have blatant plotholes! Huge gaps! Left unexplained! Now who's explaining away plot holes and pretending they don't exist? But, they are not plotholes, as it doesn't affect the content of the story!
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Post by icecreamdf on Sept 26, 2016 20:25:22 GMT
Now who's explaining away plot holes and pretending they don't exist? But, they are not plotholes, as it doesn't affect the content of the story! Does it affect the content of the story that we didn't see The Doctor and Clara leave his time line in between stories? Or that the Doctor remembers Day of the Doctor even though at least two future versions of himself were around? I used The Two Doctors as an example because there is an elaborate fan theory that explains away most of the plotholes, but the Classic Series is filled with plot holes. And that isn't a bad thing. The stories are still very good and entertaining to watch, and its fun to come up with theories to fill in the plotholes.
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