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Post by Kestrel on May 15, 2021 1:18:58 GMT
I'm not really active on social media, but just from what's been said here in the past few months, it seems like Nick Briggs has been making a habit of getting very pissy at middling (not even negative!) reviews on the Internet. And that's putting it charitably! It's very easy to see this kind of (deeply embarrassing) behavior as Big Finish going out of its way to bully/shame their critics customers. That euphoric high of finally getting to see the 9th Doctor again and everything in the world being lovely? Yeah, I miss that. I think the first episode was my favourite of the set.. I liked that it kept jumping back to The Doctor telling the story of what happened. It built up the story nicely. It did feel like a pretty standard story and the story was definitely elevated by Ecclestons presence. Overall I did enjoy it but it was nothing groundbreaking. I do think I need to give the last episode a relisten though as a few bits lost me a bit. I'll definitely be doing a relisten sooner, rather than later, too. As for the storytelling... the 9th Doctor really seems to me to be the Doctor best suited to just sitting down with someone and having a chat. Telling a story. Just talking, yeah? And by the end of the conversation, things are better. There's a (rare 9th Doctor) Short Trip that really captures this aspect of the character well, I think. HER own Bootstraps, I think. Which, come to think of it, kinda had a similar plot to Ravagers. EG both stories are about time travel shenanigans and the Doctor meeting the antagonist out-of-order, among other things.
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Post by constonks on May 15, 2021 1:39:44 GMT
(Her Own Bootstraps) kinda had a similar plot to Ravagers. EG both stories are about time travel shenanigans and the Doctor meeting the antagonist out-of-order, among other things. Ha! I just listened to HOB for the first time in the run-up to the 9DAs and listening to Cataclysm I was like... "Wait we've done this one already." (That marathon was cut short by all the news and talk about various Eccleston era actors - just couldn't enjoy it anymore. Which also meant I didn't have the same enthusiasm going into this, sadly...) Anyway... I'm kind of dizzy from this one and had trouble keeping a grip on the plot but I also kept having to pause at inopportune times. So I'll give it a relisten sometime. Maybe in August before Volume 2. Also next time, I think I'll listen to the vinyl cuts that BF included (super cool btw) which make it a classic-six-parter!
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 3:02:20 GMT
(Her Own Bootstraps) kinda had a similar plot to Ravagers. EG both stories are about time travel shenanigans and the Doctor meeting the antagonist out-of-order, among other things. Ha! I just listened to HOB for the first time in the run-up to the 9DAs and listening to Cataclysm I was like... "Wait we've done this one already." (That marathon was cut short by all the news and talk about various Eccleston era actors - just couldn't enjoy it anymore. Which also meant I didn't have the same enthusiasm going into this, sadly...)Anyway... I'm kind of dizzy from this one and had trouble keeping a grip on the plot but I also kept having to pause at inopportune times. So I'll give it a relisten sometime. Maybe in August before Volume 2. Also next time, I think I'll listen to the vinyl cuts that BF included (super cool btw) which make it a classic-six-parter! It's been a lot to process. Personally, I was planning on delaying my purchase of Ravagers anyway for budgetary reasons. Too much to buy with too few funds at the moment (Age of Chaos's reissue won out). I'd made that decision long before everything that happened over the past couple weeks. We got the highest highs and the lowest lows, all at once. It's a lot to think about and I don't blame anyone who feels as though the wind's been taken out of their sails. I'll still be getting Ravagers at some point, when money permits, but holy hell...
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on May 15, 2021 7:36:50 GMT
Well, Nick really should have known - Ecclesto’s first BF story could have been Spare Parts and people will still say “and the highlight of it all was Eccelston’s triumphant return”. No matter how good the writing (and really, it’s NB wring for BF. He’s the master of okay plot, engaging Doctor dialogue) the entire THING this story has going for it is the return of Eccelston.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on May 15, 2021 10:13:41 GMT
I have listened to the 1st story twice, 2nd story nearly 1/2 way through.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 11:53:37 GMT
Food Fight.
The good. Cinematic score, breakneck pace, lots of things happening. Wonderful spacious sound design and terrific music. Christopher Eccleston, full of exuberance and energy. The Ninth Doctor is back.
The not so good - and this applies to Ravagers in general. It's very generic. Streetwise companion full of quips and takes righteous moral high-ground with silly English soldiers and centurions; there's no emotion on display, no reason for the listener to really invest in what the characters are going through. "Countless lives among the cosmos will be lost" is a long way from one person being lost we actually know and care about. Despite promises that the Universe is ending, there's more confusion than tension. The last scene is very good though, I even grew to like Nova, or get to know her at least. More like that, more actual interaction and less technobabble, and this would have been so much more enjoyable.
Or maybe I'm still a bit deflated after recent unrelated BF news. It's possible.
Mind you, @causality gets a mention in this episode!
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Post by IndieMacUser on May 15, 2021 12:06:16 GMT
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Post by Kestrel on May 15, 2021 12:12:06 GMT
Ha! I just listened to HOB for the first time in the run-up to the 9DAs and listening to Cataclysm I was like... "Wait we've done this one already." (That marathon was cut short by all the news and talk about various Eccleston era actors - just couldn't enjoy it anymore. Which also meant I didn't have the same enthusiasm going into this, sadly...)Anyway... I'm kind of dizzy from this one and had trouble keeping a grip on the plot but I also kept having to pause at inopportune times. So I'll give it a relisten sometime. Maybe in August before Volume 2. Also next time, I think I'll listen to the vinyl cuts that BF included (super cool btw) which make it a classic-six-parter! It's been a lot to process. Personally, I was planning on delaying my purchase of Ravagers anyway for budgetary reasons. Too much to buy with too few funds at the moment (Age of Chaos's reissue won out). I'd made that decision long before everything that happened over the past couple weeks. We got the highest highs and the lowest lows, all at once. It's a lot to think about and I don't blame anyone who feels as though the wind's been taken out of their sails. I'll still be getting Ravagers at some point, when money permits, but holy hell...
Kinda glad we're talking about this here, in the context of Ravagers. I didn't mention it in my initial comment of Sphere of Freedom because I figured my hot take on Rose was spicy enough. But to be completely honest? Listening to that first new story with Eccleston kinda pissed me off--at Russel Davies. What we have here, in this inaugural audio adventure, is a really fun story with a phenomenal actor whose take on the Doctor is totally (radically?) different than everything before or since. Eccleston has never been terribly specific about his reasons for leaving the show, but given the recent revelations it's hard not to suspect that RTD was fostering (or at the very least tolerating, which is a distinction without a difference) a pretty goddamned toxic work environment. Obviously there's an enormous debt we all, collectively as a fandom, owe Davies for the revival series. I've alluded to, a couple of times I think, an essay idea I've had percolating in the back of my mind for the past few months on the (honestly kinda profound) genius of interposing the Time War in-between the Classic and New series. But even so--I can't help but think he's a big part of the reason why Eccleston left the show.
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Post by timegirl on May 15, 2021 12:46:56 GMT
While I love having Chris back other than some of his dialogue and a few moments here and there: Does anyone else feel like the story itself is already fading from their brain? Other than some good dialogue for 9, the twist at the end of part 1, and that scene at the end with Nova I can barely remember what actually happened in this plot. That’s the trouble with run arounds for me, unless something really memorable happens it completely fades from my brain as I am listening to it. It gets to the point where I can’t even remember what happened in the last scene. I think those run around techno babble stories work slightly better in a visual medium for me because at least then I have potentially interesting visuals to look at. In general but especially in audio, I need something far more substantial character and plot wise.
Still over the moon to have Chris back as 9! I just hope his future stories are bit more memorable.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 13:31:37 GMT
While I love having Chris back other than some of his dialogue and a few moments here and there: Does anyone else feel like the story itself is already fading from their brain? Other than some good dialogue for 9, the twist at the end of part 1, and that scene at the end with Nova I can barely remember what actually happened in this plot. That’s the trouble with run arounds for me, unless something really memorable happens it completely fades from my brain as I am listening to it. It gets to the point where I can’t even remember what happened in the last scene. I think those run around techno babble stories work slightly better in a visual medium for me because at least then I have potentially interesting visuals to look at. In general but especially in audio, I need something far more substantial character and plot wise. Still over the moon to have Chris back as 9! I just hope his future stories are bit more memorable. It almost seems like we can't say this anymore as he's been criticised so much over the years it feels like bullying, or pilling on at least...but that's pretty standard for Nick. Hes never been one of BF's better story guys, before or after taking over from Gary. He works in his tropes (Nine wouldn't say "Old Girl" ten times like he does here) and builds them around his set style. For a story here and there that can be fine but for a boxset? It's almost always a slog. But this set was always going to be overshadowed by it's star anyway. I don't think that's an excuse for what I found to be a very padded out, stretched story but it's still true. Honestly, I'm not terribly sure there was even enough of a interesting story to fill a MR release here. Nova was undercooked hugely, she could have been Bliss for most of this. Audrey was OK but it felt like trying to channel a Moffat-esque idea of travelling through the protagonists timeline and realising things aren't quite as they seem. The Ravagers being mentioned and mentioned with the build up felt Ravenous like to me too. So there wasn't very much fresh in here from the pen of Nick. What made it fresh was purely Chris Eccleston. If this exact story was given to any other Doctor it'd probably be getting a lot less 4s and 5s in the poll, put it that way. I just don't think, and this isn't a massive insult, Nick ia a very good Doctor Who writer, but a solid reliable one who can sometimes produce something really special. Not everyone can be Robert Holmes though (not even Bob Holmes when you look at his full credits!) and Nick's gig needs him to try to be Holmes AND Hinchcliffe essentially. Can't be easy. I'm sure there are a dozen BF writers who would have been able to kick start the Ninth Doctor's story off better at BF, but kicking it off at all is the real legacy of the set. Nick may have been as important to that process behind the scenes as on the page so hey, we move on. 3 different writers in 3 standalone stories just a few months away have a chance to broaden the 9@BF horizon.
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Post by barnabaslives on May 15, 2021 13:38:29 GMT
Does anyone else feel like the story itself is already fading from their brain? Yes, but it may be kind of hard to say why. It may be just because I was so focused on Chris' performance and how he sounded and where do these episodes fit with the TV episodes and all that. I notice I remember almost nothing about the recent 4th Doctor Lost Story with Sarah and Harry as well, which is really unusually for me to remember so little about a 4th Doctor story, but I was really very focused on the recasts and what I thought of them. Sometimes stories like that call for a second listen just for the sake of the story, even though if I have them filed under "really liked that story" I usually knew what I was doing at the time, lol.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 13:53:34 GMT
While I love having Chris back other than some of his dialogue and a few moments here and there: Does anyone else feel like the story itself is already fading from their brain? Other than some good dialogue for 9, the twist at the end of part 1, and that scene at the end with Nova I can barely remember what actually happened in this plot. That’s the trouble with run arounds for me, unless something really memorable happens it completely fades from my brain as I am listening to it. It gets to the point where I can’t even remember what happened in the last scene. I think those run around techno babble stories work slightly better in a visual medium for me because at least then I have potentially interesting visuals to look at. In general but especially in audio, I need something far more substantial character and plot wise. Still over the moon to have Chris back as 9! I just hope his future stories are bit more memorable. I think you have been quite astute in your couple of mini reviews here timegirl. I myself appreciated the Radio Times review which identified the two pet hates of mine with BF Dr Who: 'More Technobabble than you can shake a sonic screwdriver at' and the flipping through time continuity which can be hard to follow if you are not 100% focussed. I like my audios linear, otherwise I would select shuffle. I once accidentally did that with 'Davros' on first listen and thought - 'hey this is really clever, jumping back and forth', than realised my mistake! I guess Nick Briggs would have this to say to you (his response to the RT review
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Post by barnabaslives on May 15, 2021 14:01:48 GMT
Nova was undercooked hugely, she could have been Bliss for most of this. Good post and good perspective, even if I don't agree with all of it. This is the part where my mileage really varied though, I felt like Nova was straightforward enough a character that I felt like I knew her in the same way I felt that about Charley or Lucie or Flip on the first meeting, whereas they can devote a whole episode to Bliss or we can meet Yasmin's family but I still don't quite feel like I know them or what to expect from them, or how things might go when the chips come down. Nova could still turn out to be an agent of the Time Lords or the Viyrans or some other twist that means we didn't really know her that well, but here she felt like someone who belonged with the Ninth Doctor and again, I think that was a huge thing to Big Finish to achieve to come up with a new companion that didn't make me say, "Bah! I don't know this person. We want Rose Tyler!"
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 14:16:38 GMT
While I love having Chris back other than some of his dialogue and a few moments here and there: Does anyone else feel like the story itself is already fading from their brain? Other than some good dialogue for 9, the twist at the end of part 1, and that scene at the end with Nova I can barely remember what actually happened in this plot. That’s the trouble with run arounds for me, unless something really memorable happens it completely fades from my brain as I am listening to it. It gets to the point where I can’t even remember what happened in the last scene. I think those run around techno babble stories work slightly better in a visual medium for me because at least then I have potentially interesting visuals to look at. In general but especially in audio, I need something far more substantial character and plot wise. Still over the moon to have Chris back as 9! I just hope his future stories are bit more memorable. I think you have been quite astute in your couple of mini reviews here timegirl . I myself appreciated the Radio Times review which identified the two pet hates of mine with BF Dr Who: 'More Technobabble than you can shake a sonic screwdriver at' and the flipping through time continuity which can be hard to follow if you are not 100% focussed. I like my audios linear, otherwise I would select shuffle. I once accidentally did that with 'Davros' on first listen and thought - 'hey this is really clever, jumping back and forth', than realised my mistake! I guess Nick Briggs would have this to say to you (his response to the RT review
I've always preferred Who to be a sci-fi adventure show, Nick prefers slightly harder sci-fi. Season 16 Vs Season 18 to be reductive I suppose. Or Keys Of Marinus Vs The Sensorites. He doesn't tend to write historical stories at all - everything is pure sci-fi. When he has used elements of history they've been inside a sci-fi setting like the Romans and 50s soldiers here or the War in Dark Eyes. Not even enough to be pseudo-historcials, really. Everything is quite...early to mid 70s space opera which is right on target with his age and the shows he's mentioned loving over the years, and tried to get for BF. When you look on Tardis Wiki at his credits as a writer..there are a lot of variations on quite standard Who themes. Famously Paul Cornell argued that Nick shouldn't write Sirens as the first story needed "a special writer, and that's not you" (source: The Inside Story book BF published) and Nick was quite, understandably, hurt by that bluntness. I really don't wish to be a hater as when he's good he IS good but looking at his credits as a list with two decades of work behind him since then...Cornell wasn't wrong.
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Post by timegirl on May 15, 2021 14:18:08 GMT
While I love having Chris back other than some of his dialogue and a few moments here and there: Does anyone else feel like the story itself is already fading from their brain? Other than some good dialogue for 9, the twist at the end of part 1, and that scene at the end with Nova I can barely remember what actually happened in this plot. That’s the trouble with run arounds for me, unless something really memorable happens it completely fades from my brain as I am listening to it. It gets to the point where I can’t even remember what happened in the last scene. I think those run around techno babble stories work slightly better in a visual medium for me because at least then I have potentially interesting visuals to look at. In general but especially in audio, I need something far more substantial character and plot wise. Still over the moon to have Chris back as 9! I just hope his future stories are bit more memorable. I think you have been quite astute in your couple of mini reviews here timegirl. I myself appreciated the Radio Times review which identified the two pet hates of mine with BF Dr Who: 'More Technobabble than you can shake a sonic screwdriver at' and the flipping through time continuity which can be hard to follow if you are not 100% focussed. I like my audios linear, otherwise I would select shuffle. I once accidentally did that with 'Davros' on first listen and thought - 'hey this is really clever, jumping back and forth', than realised my mistake! I guess Nick Briggs would have this to say to you (his response to the RT review Thanks 😊 I am not really the biggest fan of overly excessive techno babble, a little bit goes a long way! I like dialogue to mean something a bit more substantial. Good thing I’m not on Twitter or Facebook then! Even though I may not agree with Nick’s responses to recent BF reviews, I do see little bit where he is coming from. I myself am very rejection sensitive and sometimes have extreme difficulty controlling my emotional response in certain situations, so I can see a little bit why Nick reacts the way he does to criticism. He shouldn’t take it so personally but I do see why he does as I am someone who sometimes has trouble controlling my emotions when faced with negativity directed towards me.
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Post by barnabaslives on May 15, 2021 14:24:12 GMT
I think you have been quite astute in your couple of mini reviews here timegirl . I myself appreciated the Radio Times review which identified the two pet hates of mine with BF Dr Who: 'More Technobabble than you can shake a sonic screwdriver at' and the flipping through time continuity which can be hard to follow if you are not 100% focussed. I like my audios linear, otherwise I would select shuffle. I once accidentally did that with 'Davros' on first listen and thought - 'hey this is really clever, jumping back and forth', than realised my mistake! I'm embarrassed to tell you how I know this, but if you like timey-wimey stories, indeed it's amazing what accidentally having your player on shuffle will do, lol. Suddenly everything seems like it might have been written by John Dorney but without the French waiter. ;-) At least the technobabble is disposal and more just a vehicle for the story, a means to and end. It's not like Star Trek where there might be a quiz later. :-) Also embarrassing to admit but maybe I should explain that remark - when TNG was first on the air, after the show I would run to the library and lookup whatever the technobabble was because at the time the writers were tapping into state-of-the-art ideas. Great way to learn about a lot of amazing things that the world isn't ready for. Indeed, what a pointless thing to do lol, but that is something I much enjoy about DW in contrast is that it usually doesn't tempt me into dwelling on techie stuff because I probably won't be reading about artron particles in Scientific American and so forth.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 14:40:01 GMT
Nova was undercooked hugely, she could have been Bliss for most of this. Good post and good perspective, even if I don't agree with all of it. This is the part where my mileage really varied though, I felt like Nova was straightforward enough a character that I felt like I knew her in the same way I felt that about Charley or Lucie or Flip, whereas they can devote a whole episode to Bliss or we can meet Yasmin's family but I still don't quite feel like I know them or what to expect from them, or how things might go when the chips come down. Nova could still turn out to be an agent of the Time Lords or the Viyrans or some other twist that means we didn't really know her that well, but here she felt like someone who belonged with the Ninth Doctor and again, I think that was a huge thing to Big Finish to achieve to come up with a new companion that didn't make me say, "Bah! I don't know this person. We want Rose Tyler!" See, I'd say the way you feel about Nova is how I feel about Lucie. I've KNOWN Lucie's all my life. I've worked with them, I went to school with them. Sheridan plays "a Lucie" perfectly. I'd say - for me - Nova was written with some exceptionally generic shortcuts to make her seem relatable "14 hour days..no pay" etc. Then add in a few quips right off the bat to show she's funny, bit independent and spunky. But those, as I say, are shortcuts to tell us who she is as a type of companion more than as an individual. As a person, I don't feel like I know her half as well as Lucie after 3 eps. Half is being kind, actually. She's "A.N.Other Sassy Young Who Girl" for this set. It doesn't make me want Rose - just better written, fresher companion material rather than someone who's pretty much the "What does that mean, Doctor?" exposition-set up. Flip did take a while to get going but I think part of that was how disjointed that first trilogy was. Did her zero favours. Brewster to Davros with Napoleon along the way? Ouch. She was at least legit funny from the off. I'll never forget her knowledge of being at Waterloo coming from Abba's song and the comedy that came out of that with Bonaparte. Charley is a bit different as we had her pretending to be someone else to kick us off, then she was the original "impossible girl" with her non-Death causing trouble with the Web of Time so not quite understanding her from the off is a bit more understandable. She was as much a plot device enigma from that first meeting.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 14:47:43 GMT
I think you have been quite astute in your couple of mini reviews here timegirl . I myself appreciated the Radio Times review which identified the two pet hates of mine with BF Dr Who: 'More Technobabble than you can shake a sonic screwdriver at' and the flipping through time continuity which can be hard to follow if you are not 100% focussed. I like my audios linear, otherwise I would select shuffle. I once accidentally did that with 'Davros' on first listen and thought - 'hey this is really clever, jumping back and forth', than realised my mistake! I guess Nick Briggs would have this to say to you (his response to the RT review
I've always preferred Who to be a sci-fi adventure show, Nick prefers slightly harder sci-fi. Season 16 Vs Season 18 to be reductive I suppose. Or Keys Of Marinus Vs The Sensorites. He doesn't tend to write historical stories at all - everything is pure sci-fi. When he has used elements of history they've been inside a sci-fi setting like the Romans and 50s soldiers here or the War in Dark Eyes. Not even enough to be pseudo-historcials, really. Everything is quite...early to mid 70s space opera which is right on target with his age and the shows he's mentioned loving over the years, and tried to get for BF. When you look on Tardis Wiki at his credits as a writer..there are a lot of variations on quite standard Who themes. Famously Paul Cornell argued that Nick shouldn't write Sirens as the first story needed "a special writer, and that's not you" (source: The Inside Story book BF published) and Nick was quite, understandably, hurt by that bluntness. I really don't wish to be a hater as when he's good he IS good but looking at his credits as a list with two decades of work behind him since then...Cornell wasn't wrong. I quite like a lot of Nicks scripts, so I am not against his work per se. But as you say, space opera is very much of a period and there are other ways of doing something in the settings. On a tangent, I am reminded of why I enjoyed Andrew Smith's Hour of the Cybermen a few weeks back. I was just enjoying the mid 80's vibe David Banks & Colin Baker reunion and appreciated that it is possible to do an interesting story that is totally easy to follow all the way without having to jumble things up to seem cleverly plotted. That is rarely the case, more a ploy to throw the listener off course for a while if you ask me. The 'twist' of the betrayal was what was expected of an old school Cybermen tale and one was expecting it, but it did not feel too pedestrian (though the idea that the satellites could be reprogrammed 'just like so' was a bit of a click of the fingers smoke and mirrors solution. The clear homage to The Day the Earth Caught Fire was well done though. It just made it more satisfying to go with the flow and not feel that a re listen is required. To me, if it is not clear first time round to most, then the storytelling element has failed somewhat. Plot twists are cool, twisty plotting not so much. I suspect that I find if things are slightly confusing, I can put to one side the clouding of the narrative and just enjoy the performances and incidences, as one suspects where it might be heading and also understand that if all else fails, all will be explained in the end, Agatha Christie style...though she was one of the masters at that game....
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Post by project37 on May 15, 2021 18:16:50 GMT
Does anyone else feel like the story itself is already fading from their brain? Yes, but it may be kind of hard to say why. It may be just because I was so focused on Chris' performance and how he sounded and where do these episodes fit with the TV episodes and all that. I notice I remember almost nothing about the recent 4th Doctor Lost Story with Sarah and Harry as well, which is really unusually for me to remember so little about a 4th Doctor story, but I was really very focused on the recasts and what I thought of them. Speaking for myself, I think a big part of it was the lack of something to latch onto besides the voice of Christopher Eccleston. Every single one of the Ninth Doctor's television stories were carefully crafted with a central idea to entice a new audience.
Rose - Everyday person pulled into the Doctor's exciting life. The End of the World - Aliens do Agatha Christie while watching Earth explode The Unquiet Dead - Charles Dickens vs. Zombies...
...you get the idea.
Ravagers, on the other hand, had something about VR games and indentured slavery, but didn't give those ideas any breathing room, choosing instead to overload with spectacle and jumping from setting to setting while going on about time eddys and time particles (shrug), all to resolve a fairly generic end-of-the-universe threat. I just finished it yesterday and couldn't begin to tell you how the Doctor and Nova saved the day.
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Post by Andymac on May 15, 2021 20:58:00 GMT
This felt more like a Moffat era story, but I like those stories so enjoyed it even if it's not where I'd normaly put the Ninth Doctor.
I'd like more Nova, if only because I think the actress was doing a good job with the little her character actually got to do.
Nine was Nine and it's good to have him back.
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