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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 13, 2021 0:50:32 GMT
We've done a few revisits since S12 aired, so why not take on probably the most divisive scene in the season (not related to continuity): Graham talking about his cancer fears to 13, and 13 saying she needs time to think on it. Some saw it as insensitive and out-of-character, others argued it was a realistic response and that speechifying would've made it incredibly condescending.
As an example of the latter's defense, which echoes some of my own feelings about the scene:
So, where do you find yourself on this scene, a year later?
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Post by theillusiveman on Mar 13, 2021 2:07:51 GMT
So 13 can make a heartwarming speeche to a random couple getting married in demons of the Punjab yet can’t say anything that would help Graham A friend of hers that she has known for longer
And before people use the socially awkward defence need I remind people that socially awkward doctors like 11&12 did their best to comfort their companions so 13’s defence is utterly invalidated
Pretty much cemented my condemnation of the Chris Chibnall/ Jodie Whittaker error
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Post by theillusiveman on Mar 13, 2021 2:08:11 GMT
Whoops sorry I meant era
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 4:32:21 GMT
I've a theory. I like Can You Hear Me a lot. It and Praxeus manage to do something rather marvellous with a standalone story that feels uniquely suited to Thirteen. I think the scene itself is fine, but narratively it could've been nudged back a bit earlier.
Yaz's reunion with Anita, the officer who found her as a runaway (and is implied convinced her not to suicide), is this big emotional moment of catharsis for the viewer. Something which fiction is rather lovely for. It's rare to get that sort of closure as the assisting person in real life. People walk off to their own fates and you just have to be optimistic that they, like you, kept going. Had the scene with the Doctor and Graham been slotted in before that, I think it would've resonated better in the emotional journey. To get that in the escalation, rather than the cool down.
"I'm here if you need someone to listen, I'm good at that," is basically the gist of the pair's ambiguous chat in the TARDIS, which is a perfect lead-in for the scene with Yaz. You may not be able to say anything today. Okay. But, you're still there today and, while it may not seem like much now, tomorow...? It could be the difference between the Yaz at the side of the road and the Yaz who showed up on Anita's doorstep.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 13, 2021 6:35:55 GMT
So 13 can make a heartwarming speeche to a random couple getting married in demons of the Punjab yet can’t say anything that would help Graham A friend of hers that she has known for longer And before people use the socially awkward defence need I remind people that socially awkward doctors like 11&12 did their best to comfort their companions so 13’s defence is utterly invalidated Pretty much cemented my condemnation of the Chris Chibnall/ Jodie Whittaker error A generic heartwarming speech based around the adventure they’ve just had isn’t too hard to do. A friend opening up to you about their mental health issues isn’t something you can just wing at the spur of the moment. I prefer my Doctor to have an answer for everything but we’ve seen that they often get things terribly wrong (3 dealing with bureaucracy often springs to mind) so my take on the scene was that the Doctor didn’t have an answer for Graham at that time but that she was open to listening to him even if she couldn’t offer anything concrete to help him at the time. I mean, the title of the episode is a bit of a giveaway in this instance: she could hear Graham but she didn’t have anything for him at the time except her sympathy. Our friends don’t always have that: I have opened up to my friends and family about my issues and they’ve often had nothing “useful” except the acknowledgment that I’m suffering and that they wish they could do more. The scene acknowledges that there is no one hard and fast response to trauma or pain or misery and that is important to know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 7:24:54 GMT
So 13 can make a heartwarming speeche to a random couple getting married in demons of the Punjab yet can’t say anything that would help Graham A friend of hers that she has known for longer And before people use the socially awkward defence need I remind people that socially awkward doctors like 11&12 did their best to comfort their companions so 13’s defence is utterly invalidated Pretty much cemented my condemnation of the Chris Chibnall/ Jodie Whittaker error A generic heartwarming speech based around the adventure they’ve just had isn’t too hard to do. A friend opening up to you about their mental health issues isn’t something you can just wing at the spur of the moment. I prefer my Doctor to have an answer for everything but we’ve seen that they often get things terribly wrong (3 dealing with bureaucracy often springs to mind) so my take on the scene was that the Doctor didn’t have an answer for Graham at that time but that she was open to listening to him even if she couldn’t offer anything concrete to help him at the time. I mean, the title of the episode is a bit of a giveaway in this instance: she could hear Graham but she didn’t have anything for him at the time except her sympathy. Our friends don’t always have that: I have opened up to my friends and family about my issues and they’ve often had nothing “useful” except the acknowledgment that I’m suffering and that they wish they could do more. The scene acknowledges that there is no one hard and fast response to trauma or pain or misery and that is important to know.I'd say its a vital lesson. (Readers, I'm going to put a trigger warning right here for a rather frank talk about mental health issues below. If you feel up to it, have a read. If not, feel free to skip right on by.) Take it from someone who has talked a stranger out of suicide on the spot: there are moments where you are perfectly well-equipped to handle the situation and there are moments where you're not. That has nothing to do with competency, skill with language or anything else. I was sixteen, barely out of school, and my only experience was a longtime friend with similar impulses. It is blind luck. That's the frightening part of it. It relies on nothing more than not being too tired, too unfocussed, too unobservant. The fact that they had gotten to that point was appalling, in and of itself, but the biggest asset I had in that situation was to listen. Just listen. Nothing more than that. And I was very, very lucky because, like Yaz, whatever dark cloud had come over the top of them, they were not willing to surrender yet. I'm very fortunate to have the distance enough to talk about something that traumatic (for both parties) from the point of advocacy. There are still prejudices and stigmas around mental health that need to be overturned (I have close friends affected by them so I've strong feelings in that regard), but I also understand from that moment and moments like it that people are imperfect. The Doctor was self-aware enough in that moment aboard the TARDIS (and she knew Graham well enough) that a conversation about those sorts of demons... She wasn't equipped for in that moment. And, given the story's arc, fair enough. She had the extermination of her entire world on her mind. Distinctively, though, I don't think Graham was looking for an answer. Not judging by his reaction after the fact. He was just looking for validation. An acknowledgement that his feelings were real. Sometimes, that's all it takes.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 13, 2021 10:19:50 GMT
So 13 can make a heartwarming speeche to a random couple getting married in demons of the Punjab yet can’t say anything that would help Graham A friend of hers that she has known for longer And before people use the socially awkward defence need I remind people that socially awkward doctors like 11&12 did their best to comfort their companions so 13’s defence is utterly invalidated Pretty much cemented my condemnation of the Chris Chibnall/ Jodie Whittaker error So, I could do a really crude joke here about marriage and mental health, but instead, I hope your realize there's a giant difference between the two subjects and, more importantly, the context of the two scenes.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 15, 2021 20:08:13 GMT
So, a bit more out there, but there was recently a bit of DW Twitter drama with someone who accused the ending of being insincere and, being socially awkward themselves, they would've been more comforting in 13's place. In turn, people argued that they liked the ending and found it was akin to how they would react in that moment (a lot of talk about autism and neurodivergence) and that 13 did nothing wrong here. This was always the trouble with doing a mental health story - it means a lot of different things to different people. You can't find a one-size solution. If she had comforted Graham and done a speech, someone would say it was condescending and phony. She didn't, so she gets called callous and uncaring.
In art, you can never make everybody happy - all you can do is trust your gut and do the best you can.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Apr 15, 2021 20:17:17 GMT
I thought she was great in that scene, a realistic response that sent an important message that sometimes there isn't an easy or quick answer.
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Post by constonks on Apr 15, 2021 20:38:18 GMT
I dunno, I get it?? Didn't seem particularly cruel to me, just maybe not the right answer. The Doctor doesn't need to be perfect or even 100% consistent. Also there's no reason they didn't speak more about it later, though I'd liked to have seen that if so.
Maybe near the end of Jodie's incarnation, we'll see her visit Graham and say "by the way, what I should have said was..."
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