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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 10, 2021 0:53:44 GMT
Probably Mary Whitehouse is second to Grade as the big boogeyman of Who - I can't think of another name that gets almost any generation of fan in a tizzy like Grade. Behind the scenes stories do him no favors, as did the Room 101 interview. Yet, now that we know the show survived, even thrived, after 1985 and has become a cultural mainstay again, is it still worth being mad at him nearly 40 years later?
In addition, why did Peter Cregeen, the man who did actually can Who in 89, never get the same level of vilification as Grade, even though he technically succeeded where Grade failed?
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shutupbanks
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 10, 2021 1:34:42 GMT
I think he had a valid point, from his perspective: at the time, Who did cause a lot of headaches for him. A lot of the content of Season 22 was quite confronting for a “tea time” audience and the ratings that it was getting probably didn’t justify the amount of work he was doing at solving those problems. And - and I know I’m going to upset a lot of people here - the quality of the show really wasn’t up to much compared to a lot of contemporary dramas. I know there were extenuating circumstances but it just wasn’t cutting any mustard compared to its stablemates. There were reasons, I know, but frankly, I think it wasn’t the powerhouse it had been even five years previously.
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Post by constonks on Apr 10, 2021 5:35:08 GMT
I'd never heard the name Peter Cregeen before this thread! So you're right, he avoided being the Big Bad of Who Fandom. As shutupbanks said above, the hiatus/potential cancellation was a pretty run-of-the-mill executive decision based on what was going on at the time. But it's the treatment of Colin Baker that smarts the most, the BBC acting as if he was the problem and not letting him have a proper exit. How much of that was Grade himself, though? Fan lore would have you believe 100%...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 6:59:18 GMT
Oh, like a lot of this stuff, I think responsibility is ultimately down to who you ask. Grade himself mentions being called up to the BBC Board for the decision to cancel it. Peter Davison was of the opinion that Colin Baker got caught in the crossfire of BBC politicking squared at John Nathan-Turner. One of those situations where it could easily have been the Fifth Doctor getting shot to pieces rather than the Sixth. The clip, after all, that kept getting dragged up of failing production values was from Warriors of the Deep. Hit by delays, schedule bumps and the general chaos of the snap election in '84, for double the 'ouch' (funny how Planet of Fire's Lanzarote shooting was never picked, huh?).
I think what made the infamy stick was how Grade approached it. He was very public about his dislike of it in a way that Creegen ultimately wasn't. The Room 101 interview, for instance, mentions that the show was actually beating Wogan and Match of the Day for ratings. In response, Grade just smiles and goes: "Was it really?" ("You don't care do you?" asks the presenter.) He shakes his head, "No." It's almost theatrical, in its way.
Forty years on... In all honesty, for myself personally, I prefer to spend the energy celebrating Colin's 22-year renewal as a classic Doctor with brand new adventures. He's more than proved his mettle as an actor and it's clear he has an enduring love of the part, however dark the start was (and I do mean dark, life was not kind to him in the mid-80s). Grade doesn't really enter my mind unless prompted, which I think says it all really.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Apr 10, 2021 8:09:53 GMT
I agree that the treatment of Colin Baker was appalling but the show was also very poor back then, rewatching some of the 6 & 7 Doctor era I do find it close to unwatchable, some of this may have been intentional in terms of budget but I think the show was rightly cancelled. & would it still be here today if it had not been cancelled?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 8:11:07 GMT
I have calmed down a lot over the years on the Michael Grade issue. Even now, my Dad, on seeing some particularly good Classic Doctor Who, will interject forcefully "Michael Grade didn't pick this as an example did he?" in reference to that infamous Room 101 appearance, which we both watched at the time.
Michael Grade did shake up the BBC1 schedules greatly. When he arrived, programme runtimes were all over the place. He streamlined and standardised this so that viewers could tune in on the hour or half hour and catch the start of a programme. No 19:40, 20:10, 21:45 starts, for example.
The peak evening schedules had too many US imports for Drama serials. 1980's US drama was not the powerhouse it is today, but quite formulaic. There were also too many repeats.
Michael Grade totally overhauled this, commissioning new UK Drama serials of a high standard and new entertainment and comedy shows, along with the 30 minute 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock news programmes, finally rivalling ITV for an in depth evening news, replacing the shorter bulletins.
As for Doctor Who? It had been very successful, right up to and arguably including Colin Bakers first season. The difference that year (1985) was that it was due an overhaul and that had not occurred as customary with the change over of lead actor. A creeping reliance towards trying to look and act a bit more like harder edged sci-fi only heightened its production limitations and did not sit well with its time slot.
A simple refresh was all it needed, as it had received so many times in the past.
The failing, if it may termed so, on Michael Grade's part, was that he allowed personal dislike for the show to influence his otherwise dispassionate objectivity in revitalising BBC1 at the time. It was a legacy show, just as was Are You Being Served? which came to an end after 13 years at the same time.
In conclusion I can appreciate that for him it was mostly 'Just Business', but that there was never really a plan to revitalise the show when it was taken off air. It only won a reprieve and slow demise following the media campaign than ensued. But no, he is no villain and I think he deserves credit for dealing with the indignation of fans with the right degree of pantomimic scorn.
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lidar2
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Post by lidar2 on Apr 10, 2021 8:52:11 GMT
4 observations on this
1. the show's 16 year time-out led to its reinvention (VNAs etc) and arguably that might not have happened had it kept going on TV 2. Say he had sacked JNT rather than Colin. Who's to say JNT's replacement wouldn't have been worse than cancellation? 3. There were personal factors into account - apparently one of Colin's exes in the 1970s moved in with Grade after she broke up with Colin. Not sure Grade was making entirely dispassionate professional judgements 4.Doctor Who is only a TV programme so Grade should not be demonised when there were really evil people around the BBC at that time eg Jimmy Saville. Let's keep things in perspective.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 10, 2021 8:59:13 GMT
I'd never heard the name Peter Cregeen before this thread! So you're right, he avoided being the Big Bad of Who Fandom. You don't have Survival on DVD or blu-ray? Because he's on it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 10:11:29 GMT
Why demonise anybody? Back then Doctor Who as a TV show probably deserved to be cancelled, but out of that cancellation grew the expanded universe and consequently the Big Finish Doctor Who audios, so everything happens for a reason.
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shutupbanks
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 10, 2021 10:43:30 GMT
I'd never heard the name Peter Cregeen before this thread! So you're right, he avoided being the Big Bad of Who Fandom. As shutupbanks said above, the hiatus/potential cancellation was a pretty run-of-the-mill executive decision based on what was going on at the time. But it's the treatment of Colin Baker that smarts the most, the BBC acting as if he was the problem and not letting him have a proper exit. How much of that was Grade himself, though? Fan lore would have you believe 100%... About the only issue regarding the show that fans are united 100% behind is supporting Colin Baker in his agreement to not come back to film a regeneration scene after he was fired. A lot of people did not enjoy his tenure as the Doctor; a lot of people did not enjoy Time And The Rani; a lot of people think the show was in the doldrums at the time - but NOBODY blames Colin Baker for doing what he did.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 11:06:39 GMT
I'd never heard the name Peter Cregeen before this thread! So you're right, he avoided being the Big Bad of Who Fandom. As shutupbanks said above, the hiatus/potential cancellation was a pretty run-of-the-mill executive decision based on what was going on at the time. But it's the treatment of Colin Baker that smarts the most, the BBC acting as if he was the problem and not letting him have a proper exit. How much of that was Grade himself, though? Fan lore would have you believe 100%... About the only issue regarding the show that fans are united 100% behind is supporting Colin Baker in his agreement to not come back to film a regeneration scene after he was fired. A lot of people did not enjoy his tenure as the Doctor; a lot of people did not enjoy Time And The Rani; a lot of people think the show was in the doldrums at the time - but NOBODY blames Colin Baker for doing what he did. It's one of the heartening things to see in 1987(?): there was a Q&A between Colin, Nicola Bryant and Tony Selby, I think, and one fan makes a point of saying that the community had a lot of respect for him and were disappointed to see him go so early. Equally, in return, he ends up defending JNT for the decision he made and basically says: "I'm not on the show, but I'm still supporting it." And losing that part must have been one hell of a blow at the time, so props for his professionalism there. There's a reason why he's the current President of the Appreciation Society. I think he made the right choice, ultimately. Making the request for a full season, then departing, that was never fulfilled. For both practical and creative reasons. Doing just the one serial for the year, putting him out of work for the rest of it, doesn't make sense. And there was no guarantee that the Sixth Doctor was going to get a deserving send-off in the melee that was happening at the time anyway. It was just too fraught. Your mileage may vary, but I think allowing them to focus on the Seventh Doctor -- and only the Seventh Doctor -- helped reorientate themselves for more centred and confident seasons in '88 and '89.
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Post by BHTvsTFC on Apr 10, 2021 13:04:59 GMT
Listening to the Season Twenty-Three lost stories all I can think of is if Grade had just waited a season he might just have had the full backing of the public if he'd wanted to cancel the show! In so many ways what happened worked out the better for everyone concerned in the end.
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Post by constonks on Apr 10, 2021 23:07:37 GMT
I'd never heard the name Peter Cregeen before this thread! So you're right, he avoided being the Big Bad of Who Fandom. You don't have Survival on DVD or blu-ray? Because he's on it. In my shame, I have not yet delved as deeply into special features as I'd like!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 4:09:26 GMT
You don't have Survival on DVD or blu-ray? Because he's on it. In my shame, I have not yet delved as deeply into special features as I'd like! Ohh, I can definitely recommend the "Endgame" documentary on Survival's DVD. Peter Cregeen is the first thing we see on the documentary. I decided to rewatch it to refresh my memory and he's quite soft-spoken and measured, almost like a kindly uncle. Genuinely thoughtful. This is part of his contribution: And, looking over the energy of the mid-90s... Yeah. Yeah, I can definitely see that. There's an air of maybe, possibly, the show could've come back in 1993/4. Things like More than 30 Years in the TARDIS felt like a bit of a test run for how the show could've been produced had it come back on British television. In fact, in a weird quirk of fate, Cregeen was initially attached as producer for The Dark Dimension. In his role as Head of Drama. Unfortunately, around that time, there was a massive shift in BBC management which meant that Cregeen was moved on. It's interesting to speculate what the knock-on effects would have been had things turned out differently... (1 - Not surprised there, on my part. I've a sneaking suspicion the production team were keeping their heads down.)
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Post by martinw8686 on Apr 14, 2023 12:33:29 GMT
Firstly I really enjoy most of 80s Doctor Who, there are very few episodes that are actually bad, no more so than the previous decades since the show began.
Grade shouldn't be demonised, but I will say based on the Room 101 interview and his special features appearances, he comes across as an unpleasant man, basing his decisions on personal dislike for the show, showcasing behaviour similar to a school yard bully and treating Colin in a manner devoid of empathy.
I don't like the man, I imagine he and I would clash on many things, he strikes me as an arrogant Conservative, a friend of the elite, who thinks himself above others.
So in summation, not a demon but in my view an unpleasant man.
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Post by bonehead on Apr 14, 2023 12:48:44 GMT
It's on the Series 22 Bluray set that there's an interview with Michael Grade. He comes across as a take-no-prisoners business man with a rogueish personality. He was head of BBC1 at a time when it was floundering ratings-wise. He rearranged schedules and introduced populist shows. No real interest in Doctor Who, he saw bits and pieces that he didn't like - cheap and well past its prime, as he saw it. Referencing Series 22 back then, he saw the apparent upswing in violence and horror as a desperate way of clawing back dwindling viewers. Doctor Who fans weren't really in his mind. Back then, 'geeks' and 'nerds' didn't have an identity, and certainly weren't recognised as anything positive. And so, he scrapped our favourite show. Only the monumental outcry gave it any kind of respite - but the writing was one the wall apparently: all this talk of Doctor Who 'having a future' was a lie. It was to be scrapped. Grade was surprised to learn it lasted another four years following what became known as the haitus.
It's a waste of time demonising Grade. He was there to do a job and broadly speaking, he did it, taking no prisoners along the way. If he hadn't paved the way for Doctor Who's eventual quiet cancellation, it wouldn't have been able to come back with such a bang in 2005. One thing I do argue with him about - how could Who possibly be compared with Star Wars (as he was constantly doing) when it had a zillionth of the budget? That's grossly unfair. It wasn't given any more budget because Grade wanted it dead and gone. He wasn't interested in saving it. But he shouldn't chastise the show for not achieving the impossible.
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 14, 2023 16:16:16 GMT
Yeah, agree. He should not be demonized. He probably was a Richard Cranium at work and in his private time, but far from a demon.
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