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Post by nucleusofswarm on May 8, 2021 0:23:39 GMT
NuWho does two unapologetic love letters to 1900s sci-fi pulp adventures (set in the 1800s, but I digress) that could easily have borne the name of ER Burroughs or Kenneth Robeson, but which has the derringest of derring-do?
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Post by grinch on May 8, 2021 10:50:31 GMT
Empress of Mars without a doubt. Definitely feels the most like something that could have originated from Burroughs or Wells and I like how it continues to expand on the society of the Ice Warriors with the addition of the Empress.
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Post by mark687 on May 8, 2021 10:50:46 GMT
Empress Excellent story, very good performance, and that Cameo for me is a real "Punch in the Air moment" Tesla's almost as good, but Jodie just looses focus a bit at the demount.
Regards
mark687
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Post by number13 on May 8, 2021 13:55:27 GMT
Empressss of Maarsssss!
It's a brilliant story which seems to me like a New/Classic Who cross-over, full of character moments as well as all the action, and the way Bill described the world through pop culture reminded me of BF's very own Flip. Excellent dynamic between Bill and the Doctor and of course, he's the best New Who Doctor! (And here with imo the best New Who companion.  )
The Doctor saves the day, not by preaching peace - which would have been futile in such warrior company, but because a soldier lives up to the bravery and code of honour expected of him and by the Ice Warriors. A meeting of two cultures making peace by mutual understanding of their codes of war. Very neat.
And THAT CAMEO!! and the timey-wimey way it integrated these Ice Warriors into the classic era and bridged the gap between their early 'warrior' stories and the later diplomats. Aquamarine and emerald hues of delight rippled across my skin, a tear came to my large, liquid-blue eye and I raised all six tentacles in quivering salute to Ysanne Churchman - Alpha Centauri!!! A moment of pure magic from the Peladon tales I've loved for so long!
Loved it!  |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2021 14:23:58 GMT
Well I have only seen the former episode (Empress of Mars), but Mark Gatiss really lived up to his classic series fanboy credentials here (as with The Unquiet Dead) with an unashamedly modern yet retro take on the series format. Something that can reference other works of fiction yet provide that unique Dr Who spin that the series can and sometimes does do so well with different ideas and inspirations. No need for Holodecks here, we have a Tardis so can go there for real. The British Empire in Space - we had it in Destination Nerva and there is the Flashman style (down to knock-off covers) series by Toby Frost (examples below). Where this works so well for Empress of Mars, is that it fits effortlessly into classic series continuity but with fresh ideas and situations nevertheless within a traditional classic series studio bound set (underground caves to keep it confined and claustrophobic - a homage in itself to the Pertwee 'space mission' tales) with humour, deft characterisation and leaves a feeling that you wish the old series did something similar (Enlightenment & The War Games without the abducted by Aliens plot justification). Great entertainment and with the best new series Doctor and companion team for this kind of thing too. Perfect for Series 10.     |
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Post by timegirl on May 8, 2021 14:37:05 GMT
Empress of Mars all the Way! Favorite Doctor, unusual use of ice Warriors, amazing steampunk production design, and those super sexy badass blue spacesuits!
Sidenote: I wish those sexy blue spacesuits were a recurring costume during 12’s whole era! They are some of the best costumes in all of DW and Capaldi looks amazing in his! I would have loved to see 12 and Clara wear those spacesuits in series 8 or 9!
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Post by grinch on May 8, 2021 14:39:37 GMT
Well I have only seen the former episode (Empress of Mars), but Mark Gatiss really lived up to his classic series fanboy credentials here (as with The Unquiet Dead) with an unashamedly modern yet retro take on the series format. Something that can reference other works of fiction yet provide that unique Dr Who spin that the series can and sometimes does do so well with different ideas and inspirations. No need for Holodecks here, we have a Tardis so can go there for real. The British Empire in Space - we had it in Destination Nerva and there is the Flashman style (down to knock-off covers) series by Toby Frost (examples below). Where this works so well for Empress of Mars, is that it fits effortlessly into classic series continuity but with fresh ideas and situations nevertheless within a traditional classic series studio bound set (underground caves to keep it confined and claustrophobic - a homage in itself to the Pertwee 'space mission' tales) with humour, deft characterisation and leaves a feeling that you wish the old series did something similar (Enlightenment & The War Games without the abducted by Aliens plot justification). Great entertainment and with the best new series Doctor and companion team for this kind of thing too. Perfect for Series 10. Have you by chance ever heard of Space 1889 at all? It’s an old tabletop RPG that does a very similar idea of the British Empire in space. I’m quite a big fan of the setting myself so that’s probably why I liked Empress so much. |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2021 15:01:24 GMT
Well I have only seen the former episode (Empress of Mars), but Mark Gatiss really lived up to his classic series fanboy credentials here (as with The Unquiet Dead) with an unashamedly modern yet retro take on the series format. Something that can reference other works of fiction yet provide that unique Dr Who spin that the series can and sometimes does do so well with different ideas and inspirations. No need for Holodecks here, we have a Tardis so can go there for real. The British Empire in Space - we had it in Destination Nerva and there is the Flashman style (down to knock-off covers) series by Toby Frost (examples below). Where this works so well for Empress of Mars, is that it fits effortlessly into classic series continuity but with fresh ideas and situations nevertheless within a traditional classic series studio bound set (underground caves to keep it confined and claustrophobic - a homage in itself to the Pertwee 'space mission' tales) with humour, deft characterisation and leaves a feeling that you wish the old series did something similar (Enlightenment & The War Games without the abducted by Aliens plot justification). Great entertainment and with the best new series Doctor and companion team for this kind of thing too. Perfect for Series 10. Have you by chance ever heard of Space 1889 at all? It’s an old tabletop RPG that does a very similar idea of the British Empire in space. I’m quite a big fan of the setting myself so that’s probably why I liked Empress so much. No - its new to me, but looking up the above as I could not remember the name off the top of my head also threw up a few other sources whereby the concept has taken hold. Then there is the Iron Sky Nazis in Space film and spin offs to consider. I think its fair to say that the ideas are original to each and their own rather than willful copying. They just seem a natural progression of the imagination for people who grew up reading the above cited early science fantasy and Amazing Stories pulp fiction, plus the vary nature of Star Wars being an allegory of sorts of the American War of Independence (a rebellion of against a certain Empire with farmboys getting in on the action culminating in a Dambusters inspired attack on an impenetrable fortification). One can perhaps run with the idea without knowing it has already been done. All good stuff though. And lets appreciate Colony in Space while we are on the subject, as an example of Dr Who getting in before the competition with allegorical takes on the subject.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2021 17:03:22 GMT
I'd have given it to Empress of Mars just for the return of Alpha Centauri... but it was the better story for me anyway.
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Post by constonks on May 9, 2021 1:40:51 GMT
I think I liked Tesla a little more on first watch* - both he and Edison are well-cast - but Empress of Mars is my go-to answer for "what should be novelised next?"
*not counting the AC cameo - obviously that's the highest point of either episode!
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on May 9, 2021 1:52:22 GMT
I have mixed feelings. EoM is excellent. NTNOT is excellent.
EoMhas that cameo. NTNOT has a fair handed presentation of Edison. Both have excellent costumes. But I find the new Ice Warrior kill effects to be on the wrong side of childishly silly. NTNOT is less a story and more a sequence of moments strung together.
EoM has what looked to be a set up for something that never got explored (the TARDIS just randomly dematerialising). NTNOT has the cardboard cut out that is Ryan.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2021 3:53:17 GMT
Well I have only seen the former episode (Empress of Mars), but Mark Gatiss really lived up to his classic series fanboy credentials here (as with The Unquiet Dead) with an unashamedly modern yet retro take on the series format. Something that can reference other works of fiction yet provide that unique Dr Who spin that the series can and sometimes does do so well with different ideas and inspirations. No need for Holodecks here, we have a Tardis so can go there for real. The British Empire in Space - we had it in Destination Nerva and there is the Flashman style (down to knock-off covers) series by Toby Frost (examples below). Where this works so well for Empress of Mars, is that it fits effortlessly into classic series continuity but with fresh ideas and situations nevertheless within a traditional classic series studio bound set (underground caves to keep it confined and claustrophobic - a homage in itself to the Pertwee 'space mission' tales) with humour, deft characterisation and leaves a feeling that you wish the old series did something similar (Enlightenment & The War Games without the abducted by Aliens plot justification). Great entertainment and with the best new series Doctor and companion team for this kind of thing too. Perfect for Series 10. Books recommended by... *drums table* Ben Aaronovitch! I've got a few of Toby Frost's Isambard Smith novels here on my shelf. I had to investigate a series that was able publish with a title like Wrath of the Lemming Men. Empress of Mars plays it a bit more straight, but the same ethos is very much in force there. Gatiss uses the story to explore his love of steampunk (or steampunk-adjacent) aesthetics. Interesting that it originally sprouted from a Peladon story because all the tropes and trappings of those stories, despite their Martian surrounds, are very much in force. It's a pastiche of Burroughs, Wells and similar, but it also does a pretty good job of paying homage to Brian Hayles's little touches of characterisation in his stories. It's good to see the supporting cast get a bit of characterisation. Trickier to manage in 45-minutes compared to 90-minutes, but worth the effort. The only thing that I wish they'd done, but hadn't, was keep the original Ice Warrior weapon sound from the Troughton serials. It's a very satisfying piece of foley. |
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Post by Ela on May 10, 2021 3:40:49 GMT
I really enjoyed Nikola Tesla's Night Of Terror. I enjoyed Empress of Mars, too, but it didn't make as much of an impression on me, to be honest.
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