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Post by elkawho on May 10, 2021 4:05:40 GMT
I regret making this thread now. I feel like it’s mostly being used to be negative about my favorite TARDIS team (12 and Clara ) and that makes me really sad😔I love Bill too but I don’t like the idea of getting rid of Clara completely. I know I am probably overreacting because I am over tired and not feeling well from my Moderna Vaccine but I wanted this to be a happy thread. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course, but it’s too much negativity for me. I don't see that much negative here. Just differing opinions. The nature of the beast.
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Post by pazzer on May 10, 2021 4:09:49 GMT
Instead of the oh by the way Peri isn't actually dead would have the Doctor actually save her at the end of Trial. Then give them one more adventure which is also where Mel gets a proper intro.
Clara doesn't die at the end of The Snowmen.
Get rid of the call from 11 at the end of Deep Breath and have Clara just accept 12.
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Post by elkawho on May 10, 2021 4:11:16 GMT
Instead of the oh by the way Peri isn't actually dead would have the Doctor actually save her at the end of Trial. Then give them one more adventure which is also where Mel gets a proper intro. Clara doesn't die at the end of The Snowmen. Get rid of the call from 11 at the end of Deep Breath and have Clara just accept 12. I agree with all three.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on May 10, 2021 6:37:55 GMT
Get rid of the call from 11 at the end of Deep Breath and have Clara just accept 12. Definitely, that scene really put me off especially the mention of 12 being old. It was as if Moffat was afraid viewers wouldn't take to this older Doctor whereas highlighting the age thing just made it worse for me & it showed a lack of confidence in his casting decision. Always felt weird that Clara of all companions found it hard to accept a new Doctor.
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Post by Timelord007 on May 10, 2021 6:43:09 GMT
Theres lot's of things I'd change especially during Moffats era but there are lots of things in Doctor Who that a majority of showrunners got right.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 8:45:42 GMT
Get rid of the call from 11 at the end of Deep Breath and have Clara just accept 12. Definitely, that scene really put me off especially the mention of 12 being old. It was as if Moffat was afraid viewers wouldn't take to this older Doctor whereas highlighting the age thing just made it worse for me & it showed a lack of confidence in his casting decision. Always felt weird that Clara of all companions found it hard to accept a new Doctor. Yes, that is an odd one - Clara more than anyone else has seen the other Doctors. Even taking the "splinter" Claras out of it, she was there in the manfestation of the timeline seeing all the Doctors and has literally had an adventure with an old Doctor in John Hurt, much older than Capaldi. I love much of the Moffat era but it's these messy things that give the impression he had ideas he was going to get in, whether they really made sense or not. I'd also say you don't need to have that phonecall on top of Vastra's speech about "seeing the veil". It was gilding the lilly somewhat and having the call kinda makes it seem Clara didn't take any of what Vastra said on board. I'd change that about the ending of Deep Breath. I'd have the Doctor assume Clara didn't accept him, then we realise Vastra's words did indeed get through - and she didn't need to speak to "her" Doctor to get the message across. And cut the "I'm not your boyfriend...I never said it was your mistake" stuff. Clara and Matt's Doctor didn't have that dynamic. Again..Moffat's highs for me were very high indeed but when he was clunky, he was very clunky indeed.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 8:52:17 GMT
Theres lot's of things I'd change especially during Moffats era but there are lots of things in Doctor Who that a majority of showrunners got right. Specifically talking about endings, a la the thread, I was thinking that of Dicks and Letts recently. Endings like The Daemons with the maypole, the Brig and Mike hitting the pub - that's all very good stuff and so different for the show, really. Usually we'd end on just a line from The Doctor or something but The Daemons ends kinda literally with an end of season party which is very ahead of the curve. Then you've got The Green Death where Pertwee's Doctor riding off in Bessie, proud of Jo but immensely hurt to lose her, is the kind of ending we don't really get in the classic era at all. It's still understated but that's easily the companion departure where the Doctor positively broods over it and you can feel his pain. It didn't feel, like many departures did, like an episode just written with a goodbye scene written and tacked on. There's a melancholy throughout the 6 eps that is in the script but even moreso in the performances.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 8:54:47 GMT
Instead of the oh by the way Peri isn't actually dead would have the Doctor actually save her at the end of Trial. Then give them one more adventure which is also where Mel gets a proper intro.
Clara doesn't die at the end of The Snowmen. Get rid of the call from 11 at the end of Deep Breath and have Clara just accept 12. I may be misremembering but didn't Neil Gaiman say that Moffat wanted that Victorian Clara to live and be the one we got on screen but the BBC said he had to make her a contemporary companion?
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on May 10, 2021 8:56:28 GMT
Definitely, that scene really put me off especially the mention of 12 being old. It was as if Moffat was afraid viewers wouldn't take to this older Doctor whereas highlighting the age thing just made it worse for me & it showed a lack of confidence in his casting decision. Always felt weird that Clara of all companions found it hard to accept a new Doctor. Yes, that is an odd one - Clara more than anyone else has seen the other Doctors. Even taking the "splinter" Claras out of it, she was there in the manfestation of the timeline seeing all the Doctors and has literally had an adventure with an old Doctor in John Hurt, much older than Capaldi. I love much of the Moffat era but it's these messy things that give the impression he had ideas he was going to get in, whether they really made sense or not. I'd also say you don't need to have that phonecall on top of Vastra's speech about "seeing the veil". It was gilding the lilly somewhat and having the call kinda makes it seem Clara didn't take any of what Vastra said on board. I'd change that about the ending of Deep Breath. I'd have the Doctor assume Clara didn't accept him, then we realise Vastra's words did indeed get through - and she didn't need to speak to "her" Doctor to get the message across. And cut the "I'm not your boyfriend...I never said it was your mistake" stuff. Clara and Matt's Doctor didn't have that dynamic. Again..Moffat's highs for me were very high indeed but when he was clunky, he was very clunky indeed. Yes that was weird.
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Post by grinch on May 10, 2021 8:59:57 GMT
Instead of the oh by the way Peri isn't actually dead would have the Doctor actually save her at the end of Trial. Then give them one more adventure which is also where Mel gets a proper intro.
Clara doesn't die at the end of The Snowmen. Get rid of the call from 11 at the end of Deep Breath and have Clara just accept 12. I may be misremembering but didn't Neil Gaiman say that Moffat wanted that Victorian Clara to live and be the one we got on screen but the BBC said he had to make her a contemporary companion? I heard that somewhere as well. Can’t for the life of me understand what the BBC were thinking in that regard. Do they not remember the TARDIS is a time machine?
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on May 10, 2021 9:00:00 GMT
The Doctor manages to save Astrid Peth at the end of Voyage of the Damned & she becomes a fulltime companion.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 9:13:31 GMT
The "Timelord Victorious" part of Waters Of Mars. This would require changing End Of Time as well (which is fine by me as that could use a pruning) but it felt like we should have been left with The Doctor having given into this hubris that he "won" the Time War, and that the 2-part finale should have been much more about that. Instead the events of the 2-part finale would have happened anyway. Imagine going into the finale eps with The Doctor as, potentially, the villain. The "Full Fathom Five" pragmatist Doctor who does what he does by any means neccessary. It seemed for a minute that we were getting that but..nah He recanted within 2mins, and went off to next be seen wearing Hawaiian party gear on the Oodsphere. There are loads of things I'd change about the almost impossibly bloated End Of Time but they'd need to start with changing the end of Waters Of Mars to do so.
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Post by theillusiveman on May 10, 2021 9:13:54 GMT
Clara leaves when Matt Smith regenerates & we start 12 with the Bill Potts era. - would NOT have Martha/Mickey an item at the end of The End of Time. Even in 2010, it made me uncomfortable because it smacked of 'let's just stick the two Black characters together, that's a satisfying ending for them, right?' Yeah i felt that it was so strange that Martha was going to marry Tom Ellis's Character and then ends up married to Mickey that was so stupid hopefully if they get Freema for a 11th Doctor or 12th Doctor they can retcon mickey out of it saying they broke up
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Post by theillusiveman on May 10, 2021 9:15:15 GMT
I may be misremembering but didn't Neil Gaiman say that Moffat wanted that Victorian Clara to live and be the one we got on screen but the BBC said he had to make her a contemporary companion? I heard that somewhere as well. Can’t for the life of me understand what the BBC were thinking in that regard. Do they not remember the TARDIS is a time machine? Yeah it seems the BBC only want Contemporary companions instead of what Classic Who and The EU did seems that we wont get companions from the past or future or even alien companions
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 9:19:23 GMT
I'd also have a bit of a re-write of the way The Doctor treated Ace in S26. I don't know when he appointed himself her social worker and psychiatrist in one but he puts her through a lot of trauma to "overcome her past". I'm not sure you needed Ace purifying herself in the water from the feelings over her mother (while McCoy watches, creepily...) AND the revelation of the Ghost Light house in the same season, if at all. No wonder Ace in the Virgin books ended up so shattered.
Like much Cartmel, I like the idea - and it was ahead of it's time in terms of being the kind of thing the new show does - but it was undercooked and didn't seem to consider what the fallout of the events on the character of Ace would be. I'd have loved more of Ace asking who the hell The Doctor thinks he is to subject her to those two experiences back-to-back.
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Post by grinch on May 10, 2021 9:19:30 GMT
I heard that somewhere as well. Can’t for the life of me understand what the BBC were thinking in that regard. Do they not remember the TARDIS is a time machine? Yeah it seems the BBC only want Contemporary companions instead of what Classic Who and The EU did seems that we wont get companions from the past or future or even alien companions
It’s so strange. Take Jamie and Zoe from the Second Doctor’s era. They’re arguably among Classic Who’s best companions and they were from both the past and “future.”
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 9:29:43 GMT
Off the top of my head...
The Twin Dilemma
As iconic as the actual ending's become over the years, I'd be inclined to pull a Snakedance and have the final scene be between the Doctor and Azmael. The one in the throne room. Give audiences our fully-formed Sixie and have Peri arrive just in time to see it on the periphery. A stabilised, considerate and gentle Doctor. The Doctor he could be.
The War Machines
Reinstate the originally planned Ian and Barbara cameo. It's such a shame that schedules didn't line up as it would've been a nice send-off for the season.
The Armageddon Factor
Not so much change, but lay on an addition, in this case. A final scene with the Guardians meeting to discuss the fate of the Key to Time and the Doctor. It'd be tricky to realise in-camera, but I really like the image of the Black Guardian rolling a dice that metamorphoses into the TARDIS, racing away into the vortex out of sight.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 9:38:21 GMT
Instead of the oh by the way Peri isn't actually dead would have the Doctor actually save her at the end of Trial. Then give them one more adventure which is also where Mel gets a proper intro.
Clara doesn't die at the end of The Snowmen. Get rid of the call from 11 at the end of Deep Breath and have Clara just accept 12. I may be misremembering but didn't Neil Gaiman say that Moffat wanted that Victorian Clara to live and be the one we got on screen but the BBC said he had to make her a contemporary companion? Bang on, I think. It was in the context of him explaining her characterisation in Nightmare in Silver, which was originally written with Snowmen!Clara in mind. If it were me and they'd let him keep her... I'd have done a The Myth Makers and had the Doctor take her onboard the TARDIS wounded. Start off the next round of stories with the baggage of her being spirited away out of necessity, rather than choice. His efforts to get her back (and avoid the potential of Asylum) being thwarted by the TARDIS herself time and time again for her own reasons (i.e. apparently, though not explicitly, trying to heal the gap in space-time).
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 10:02:59 GMT
I may be misremembering but didn't Neil Gaiman say that Moffat wanted that Victorian Clara to live and be the one we got on screen but the BBC said he had to make her a contemporary companion? Bang on, I think. It was in the context of him explaining her characterisation in Nightmare in Silver, which was originally written with Snowmen!Clara in mind. If it were me and they'd let him keep her... I'd have done a The Myth Makers and had the Doctor take her onboard the TARDIS wounded. Start off the next round of stories with the baggage of her being spirited away out of necessity, rather than choice. His efforts to get her back (and avoid the potential of Asylum) being thwarted by the TARDIS herself time and time again for her own reasons (i.e. apparently, though not explicitly, trying to heal the gap in space-time). It makes me wonder how late a lot of S7 was written and even conceived. Without the Victorian Clara being followed by the contemporary one...you kinda lose the whole "impossible girl" arc which led 7B. If Moff's original idea went through there would surely have had to be another ep with a splinter Clara to cement that idea as Oswin then Victorian Clara wouldn't have been enough in-universe to carry the Doctor's curiosity and ultimately set up Name Of The Doctor. So much of that latter Smith era was done super-quick and on the hoof. From Gaiman's issues with the re-writes to Moffar being turned down by Eccleston for the 50th and then the BBC refusing to let him use Paul McGann in the role instead. Then there's things like Matt Smith somehow being left without a contract before the 50th anniversary special and his regeneration. That must have been his agent's dream to negotiate from a position of strength like that!
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Post by timegirl on May 10, 2021 10:03:18 GMT
Sorry guys I just wasn’t feeling well last night and this thread I made kind of got to me. No worries. Carry on.🙂
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