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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 17, 2021 9:13:21 GMT
Two proto-UNIT stories, which funnily enough, are both set in London and involve 'great intelligences' that dispatch killer robots. But which truly conquers?
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Post by grinch on Jul 17, 2021 9:20:45 GMT
Very difficult one this. I’d probably have to say Web of Fear due to how iconic it is (no doubt helped by the fact it was missing for so long) and has some great visuals such as the Yetis roaming the Underground. But I definitely think WOTAN is far more sinister an enemy than the Great Intelligence in this.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 17, 2021 9:43:09 GMT
Very difficult one this. I’d probably have to say Web of Fear due to how iconic it is (no doubt helped by the fact it was missing for so long) and has some great visuals such as the Yetis roaming the Underground. But I definitely think WOTAN is far more sinister an enemy than the Great Intelligence in this. I mean it does say 'Dr. Who' so that already makes it the devil.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 17, 2021 9:43:55 GMT
Too close to call cause somewhat controversially I think "War Machines" is one of Hartnell's best performances that's the Doctor I like Knowledgeable, half a step ahead, facing down the enemy, which are the traits Troughton expands upon. Also its a really strong Companion Introduction story combined with best sudden departure.
On the other hand Webs got the suspense and a Legend's Debut.
OK for my own enjoyment its War Machines to showcase the show and its legacy its Web.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 12:32:19 GMT
Hmm, tricky... I think The Web of Fear wins on the merits of being an honest-to-goodness suspense thriller, but The War Machines wins on setting this snowball down the mountain in the first place with its spy-fi entry.
I enjoy the cosmic horror aspect of the Great Intelligence and the unflinching depiction of the Yeti (it's rare that we see the Doctor in a position yelling "Don't resist!"). There's this great sense of the characters barely holding on in the face of the problem. The Web's slow invasion the end credits lingers in the mind well after the story's done and the lack of form for the entity lends extremely well to the sense of unease. What the hell is it? We never find out. WOTAN, conversely, feels like the progeny of inevitability. It won't be too long, historically speaking, before we get another C-Day and the machine is elevated to the ultimate position of power. A global computer network. Nowadays, we call it the Internet and the War Machines would be autonomous drones.
I wonder, actually, what the stories would look like if you reversed the leads? The First Doctor in Web and the Second in War?
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Post by grinch on Jul 17, 2021 12:44:42 GMT
Hmm, tricky... I think The Web of Fear wins on the merits of being an honest-to-goodness suspense thriller, but The War Machines wins on setting this snowball down the mountain in the first place with its spy-fi entry. I enjoy the cosmic horror aspect of the Great Intelligence and the unflinching depiction of the Yeti (it's rare that we see the Doctor in a position yelling "Don't resist!"). There's this great sense of the characters barely holding on in the face of the problem. The Web's slow invasion the end credits lingers in the mind well after the story's done and the lack of form for the entity lends extremely well to the sense of unease. What the hell is it? We never find out. WOTAN, conversely, feels like the progeny of inevitability. It won't be too long, historically speaking, before we get another C-Day and the machine is elevated to the ultimate position of power. A global computer network. Nowadays, we call it the Internet and the War Machines would be autonomous drones. I wonder, actually, what the stories would look like if you reversed the leads? The First Doctor in Web and the Second in War? I’d imagine the Second Doctor would be more adept at handling WOTAN considering how he was often matched against the Cybermen. Would be interesting if there was a moment where the Doctor speculates whether this is the moment where Earth would begin its first steps into creating the Cybermen. The beginning of the Age of the Machine if you will. Certainly think the image of the Second Doctor standing defiantly in front of an advancing War Machine would carry a different sort of weight.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 13:19:41 GMT
I'm going to go for The War Machines because apart from anything else, it contains my favourite First Doctor line.
"Yes, I wonder, Sir Charles, do you suppose, er? No, I don't suppose you would."
I'm not sure we ever found out what the Doctor was asking, and it makes me laugh every time. Also, I love the fact he's referred to as Doctor Who. Also, I love the fact that The Doctor is the only one to literally stand up to the War Machines.
Minus points for the shoddy way in which Dodo is written out, but plus points for the utterly wonderful Ben and Polly.
"Doctor. Who. Is. Required-d-d-d!"
As for The Web of Fear, it is also a terrific story with a wonderful cast and a very spooky atmosphere, although it doesn't quite match the unsettling qualities of The Abominable Snowman. I love it, but I don't love it quite as much as The War Machines.
Incidentally ...
{Spoiler} ... how did that War Machine get to the to of the tower at the end? It was too bulk for the lift!
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Post by grinch on Jul 17, 2021 13:37:47 GMT
I'm going to go for The War Machines because apart from anything else, it contains my favourite First Doctor line.
"Yes, I wonder, Sir Charles, do you suppose, er? No, I don't suppose you would."
I'm not sure we ever found out what the Doctor was asking, and it makes me laugh every time. Also, I love the fact he's referred to as Doctor Who. Also, I love the fact that The Doctor is the only one to literally stand up to the War Machines.
Minus points for the shoddy way in which Dodo is written out, but plus points for the utterly wonderful Ben and Polly.
"Doctor. Who. Is. Required-d-d-d!"
As for The Web of Fear, it is also a terrific story with a wonderful cast and a very spooky atmosphere, although it doesn't quite match the unsettling qualities of The Abominable Snowman. I love it, but I don't love it quite as much as The War Machines.
Incidentally ...
{Spoiler} ... how did that War Machine get to the to of the tower at the end? It was too bulk for the lift! I like to think it was an advanced model built for off road manoeuvring and it just scaled the side of the Post Office Tower.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 15:11:55 GMT
Once again, I think these are two very different types of Doctor Who, despite both being MK 1 & MK 2 of the prototype for the Unit concept that arrived with The Invasion and thus sharing similarities conceptually.
My first thought was a witticism as to which was higher, The Post Office Tower, or the Himalayas? Then I remembered that was the previous Yeti tale and this was...Underground!
So three tales of 'Heights'. Who would choose to go 'above, between, below'?
I agree that the Great Intelligence tales score on atmosphere and sinister threat, but The War Machines scores as an eventful, brisk four part adventure, with William Hartnell clearly enjoying himself, hence the amount of iconic scenes with him, plus the Adam Adamant feel to swinging London portrayed.
For all the legendary status of Web of Fear, I daresay that it drags a bit over its six episodes of bunker rooms and tunnels, taking a brilliant step up with the killer twist unveiling the infiltration by the Intelligence. The series first 'zombie'?
If they ever find the missing episode three with the debut of Lethbridge Stewart, Web of Fear will be complete as a viewing experience, but until then War Machines still scores as a single sitting watch and without an interruption to proceedings to leave one feeling one has missed out a chunk.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 17, 2021 17:00:59 GMT
Must say, I am pleasantly surprised by all the love for War Machines here. I had expected a clean sweep for Web.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 17:44:20 GMT
Must say, I am pleasantly surprised by all the love for War Machines here. I had expected a clean sweep for Web. To be fair and with due respect, when you pick these pairings, I get the impression that you select ones with superficial similarities as opposed to their being peas from the same pod. That is to say it is not a case of say, Abominable Snowmen vs Web of Fear, or Earthshock vs Resurrection of the Daleks. Its harder to choose which did it better when they are both equally good, but for very different reasons. It makes for an interesting discussion this way, to myself at least, as there is a distinct tonal contrast, despite their commonalities.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 17, 2021 21:02:19 GMT
Must say, I am pleasantly surprised by all the love for War Machines here. I had expected a clean sweep for Web. To be fair and with due respect, when you pick these pairings, I get the impression that you select ones with superficial similarities as opposed to their being peas from the same pod. That is to say it is not a case of say, Abominable Snowmen vs Web of Fear, or Earthshock vs Resurrection of the Daleks. Its harder to choose which did it better when they are both equally good, but for very different reasons. It makes for an interesting discussion this way, to myself at least, as there is a distinct tonal contrast, despite their commonalities. That's a way to look at it, though I did do Res vs Earth a while back.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 22:43:05 GMT
Hmm, tricky... I think The Web of Fear wins on the merits of being an honest-to-goodness suspense thriller, but The War Machines wins on setting this snowball down the mountain in the first place with its spy-fi entry. I enjoy the cosmic horror aspect of the Great Intelligence and the unflinching depiction of the Yeti (it's rare that we see the Doctor in a position yelling "Don't resist!"). There's this great sense of the characters barely holding on in the face of the problem. The Web's slow invasion the end credits lingers in the mind well after the story's done and the lack of form for the entity lends extremely well to the sense of unease. What the hell is it? We never find out. WOTAN, conversely, feels like the progeny of inevitability. It won't be too long, historically speaking, before we get another C-Day and the machine is elevated to the ultimate position of power. A global computer network. Nowadays, we call it the Internet and the War Machines would be autonomous drones. I wonder, actually, what the stories would look like if you reversed the leads? The First Doctor in Web and the Second in War? I’d imagine the Second Doctor would be more adept at handling WOTAN considering how he was often matched against the Cybermen. Would be interesting if there was a moment where the Doctor speculates whether this is the moment where Earth would begin its first steps into creating the Cybermen. The beginning of the Age of the Machine if you will. Certainly think the image of the Second Doctor standing defiantly in front of an advancing War Machine would carry a different sort of weight. Yeah, I can see Troughton pinching his fingertips, shoulders slightly hunched, head bowed. Less defiant gravitas, more furtive anxiety. Like he's not quite sure if the plan is going to pull itself off. Funny thing, but I can't imagine The Web of Fear being too dissimilar to what we eventually got. The First Doctor would likely play what he knew a bit closer to the chest. The modus operandi of the Intelligence isn't too dissimilar in some respects to the Animus on Vortis and that almost ended very badly. I think he would probably take a bit of convincing in agreeing to send the UNIT soldiers out to collect the TARDIS from Covent Garden for that reason.
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Post by grinch on Jul 18, 2021 9:14:57 GMT
I’d imagine the Second Doctor would be more adept at handling WOTAN considering how he was often matched against the Cybermen. Would be interesting if there was a moment where the Doctor speculates whether this is the moment where Earth would begin its first steps into creating the Cybermen. The beginning of the Age of the Machine if you will. Certainly think the image of the Second Doctor standing defiantly in front of an advancing War Machine would carry a different sort of weight. Yeah, I can see Troughton pinching his fingertips, shoulders slightly hunched, head bowed. Less defiant gravitas, more furtive anxiety. Like he's not quite sure if the plan is going to pull itself off. Funny thing, but I can't imagine The Web of Fear being too dissimilar to what we eventually got. The First Doctor would likely play what he knew a bit closer to the chest. The modus operandi of the Intelligence isn't too dissimilar in some respects to the Animus on Vortis and that almost ended very badly. I think he would probably take a bit of convincing in agreeing to send the UNIT soldiers out to collect the TARDIS from Covent Garden for that reason. I think the First Doctor would be more than a little suspicious and apprehensive about working with UNIT. Especially if he thinks they’ve been keeping tabs on his activities on Earth. Besides, if the humans have noticed his presence who knows who else might have clocked on?.... It’s the sort of idea that was set up in the Hunters of Earth audio that unfortunately never went anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 9:35:07 GMT
Yeah, I can see Troughton pinching his fingertips, shoulders slightly hunched, head bowed. Less defiant gravitas, more furtive anxiety. Like he's not quite sure if the plan is going to pull itself off. Funny thing, but I can't imagine The Web of Fear being too dissimilar to what we eventually got. The First Doctor would likely play what he knew a bit closer to the chest. The modus operandi of the Intelligence isn't too dissimilar in some respects to the Animus on Vortis and that almost ended very badly. I think he would probably take a bit of convincing in agreeing to send the UNIT soldiers out to collect the TARDIS from Covent Garden for that reason. I think the First Doctor would be more than a little suspicious and apprehensive about working with UNIT. Especially if he thinks they’ve been keeping tabs on his activities on Earth. Besides, if the humans have noticed his presence who knows who else might have clocked on?.... It’s the sort of idea that was set up in the Hunters of Earth audio that unfortunately never went anyway. Yeah, I agree with you there. Part of the reason I think he never sought out Ian and Barbara too often directly on Earth was because certain groups (both terrestrial and otherwise) would be actively taking an interest in him. I think according to The Ambassadors of Death (or maybe it's The War Machines?) novelisation, Chesterton ended up being a scientific consultant for NASA. They'd take quite a keen interest in the Doctor's true nature. Given his unique position, essentially being a refugee and a potential criminal (a thief, but then thieves suffer quite nasty punishments in certain circles), there's not a lot of options for the First Doctor if he's caught. Whether his observers' interest is benign or not. "People talk, young man. People talk."
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