Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2021 20:03:05 GMT
In my mind, this is one of the biggest questions when it comes to the franchise.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 7, 2021 20:16:11 GMT
Depends what you mean by canon.
Does it have a Holmesian Great Game-style “this counts”/“this doesn’t” line? No.
Does it have a (Pre-2014) Star Wars-style tier of “information from these medias overrules information from others”? Sort of I guess, as TV tends to lead and others follow, but nowhere near as codified.
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Post by Digi on Sept 7, 2021 20:22:17 GMT
There's too much media--and no central narrative organizing authority--for it ever to be held together consistently. So no, not really.
Doctor Who is the ultimate 'head canon' franchise: like what you like, ignore what you don't, carry on with your life.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Sept 7, 2021 20:38:58 GMT
Of course he doewn’t have a canon, the dude’s a technical pacfist!
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Post by grinch on Sept 7, 2021 20:41:08 GMT
Only when the writers/fans feel like it. 😉
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Post by Star Platinum on Sept 7, 2021 20:47:14 GMT
In my humble opinion, everything officially licensed by the BBC is canon. From the timeless child all the way down to Doctor Who vs masterplan Q.
As long as they don’t break the characters, I’m good for anything they want to throw at me.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Sept 7, 2021 20:47:43 GMT
Yes, but it's fuzzy. If it's not on tv, or in a comic, or book or something, it's not canon; if it is in one of those things, it usually is canon, but not always, and even if it is, it may not be correct.
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Post by constonks on Sept 7, 2021 20:54:07 GMT
In my humble opinion, everything officially licensed by the BBC is canon. From the timeless child all the way down to Doctor Who vs masterplan Q. As long as they don’t break the characters, I’m good for anything they want to throw at me. That's it for me, too. Everything counts. And obviously, every single moment in the Doctor Who Universe is changeable in-universe and there's tons of meddling, malicious and/or bumbling time travelers out there, so contradictions don't have to mean one thing "happened" and another didn't - one thing happened and then something that contradicted that happened. And that's all fine. The fun thing about Doctor Who is, when it comes to things outside "canon" (fanfiction), you could imagine all the unlicensed stuff is happening one universe to the left and it all becomes plausible. (And licensed work and fanfic is so intertwined, sometimes things do trickle into the canon over time!)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2021 20:58:16 GMT
Yes. Except when it has more than one.
This was never supposed to be a "thing" that had thousands of story in every media. Things are contradicted. Things don't add up. Showrunners don't always do their homework (or think it matters - usually rightly). We've had Ace's death quite a few ways (except for the canons where she's still alive. Atlantis has had multiple explanations. Sarah and UNIT's dating controversy is a thing.
My advice? It doesn't matter. Remember the Eleventh Doctor's words.... "We're all just stories in the end. Try and make it a good one".
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Post by ollychops on Sept 7, 2021 22:20:08 GMT
Yes. To me, everything is canon. Obviously the TV stuff certainly is, and then you can pick and choose what you want as 'your' canon, but just because things don't fit together perfectly or contradict doesn't really make any difference - in fact, Doctor Who is the perfect franchise to get away with things like that because you can hand-wave things away easily. Means I can enjoy all Doctor Who content without any worries. That's the good thing about the BBC not getting involved in that kind of thing, unlike Disney and Star Wars.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Sept 7, 2021 22:47:00 GMT
Yes and no.
In Dalek, it was 2012 and nobody knew what a Dalek was. Three seasons later, the Daleks invaded and everyone knew what they were, just a year or two before the episode was supposed to have happened. Then, in his next incarnation, he met Amy, who didn’t know what a Dalek was. The Doctor met Yaz, Ryan and Graham in a 2018 that wasn't dominated by news of Salamander from Enemy of the World. The Doctor changes everything by their actions in subsequent stories. Canon counts, until it doesn’t. It’s all a bit wibbly wobbly, really.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Sept 7, 2021 23:12:30 GMT
Yes. & the Timeless Child IS canon.
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Post by mark687 on Sept 7, 2021 23:36:58 GMT
I'm another who takes the takes the personal "Head-Cannon" approach.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Sept 7, 2021 23:38:01 GMT
Yes and no. In Dalek, it was 2012 and nobody knew what a Dalek was. Three seasons later, the Daleks invaded and everyone knew what they were, just a year or two before the episode was supposed to have happened. Then, in his next incarnation, he met Amy, who didn’t know what a Dalek was. The Doctor met Yaz, Ryan and Graham in a 2018 that wasn't dominated by news of Salamander from Enemy of the World. The Doctor changes everything by their actions in subsequent stories. Canon counts, until it doesn’t. It’s all a bit wibbly wobbly, really. Apropos Salamander - I’ve created a fan-fic where due to events, everything the Doctor did after “Nightmare of Eden” never happened, which amongst other things lead to the world of 2018 being Salamander-y.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2021 4:41:22 GMT
Yes, but said canon tends to be relative to each person travelling in Time. What's true for one isn't necessarily true for the other. It's holistic, like... Oh, how did that Dirk Gently fellow put it?
The example I always find handy to explain it is Shada. A story featuring the [TBA] Doctor, K9 and Romana as they visit St. Cedd's College. From the "beginning", from the Doctor's perspective, he arrived there to visit Professor Chronotis in his fourth incarnation. He went punting down the canal in Cambridge, discovered the lost Ancient and Worshipful Law of Gallifrey, and uncovered the secret that led to Shada. That's true for him in every story leading up to The Five Doctors. Things start to get a bit muddled from there.
In that story, the Player in charge of the Death Zone pulls the Doctor's former selves out of Time and Space. In a way that causes him to essentially vanish from existence (all of them). The Player succeeds with every incarnation, barring the Fourth, who is trapped in the Time Vortex with Romana during their quiet relaxation in the boat. Unlike the others, he's taken from a story we recognise and because of that Shada -- as it was recognised -- is rendered non-canonical1. That small change prompted the Doctor and Romana to abandon St. Cedd's and instead made plans for Brighton Beach instead. For the later Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Doctors, they never visited Shada.
Then, the Eighth Doctor comes along. Breaching the transduction barriers of Gallifrey and sneaking in to visit the President. His old friend Romana. Accompanied by her K9. After all the hubbub of his regeneration, his amnesia, an old memory has floated back to the surface. Something about Cambridge in 1979. He convinces them both to investigate the anomaly and their long-delayed visit to Professor Chronotis occurs. By the end of it, the events of Shada are rendered canon again. Only, this time, with the Eighth Doctor leading the charge. Incarnations following him would remember discovering Shada in their eighth incarnation or, if Time's less kind, a muddled mix of the two.
The Doctor ultimately gets both. Which one depends on who you ask. As the audience we get to experience both, so you get to decide which has the greater preference as you're watching/reading/listening.
1 - Possibly why the Fifth Doctor is affected so badly by the loss of his other selves. The Doctor isn't just abducted, but their timeline is rewritten out from under them.
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Post by Jeedai on Sept 8, 2021 6:56:56 GMT
I've kinda put Doctor Who in a similar head space with the Star Trek franchise and post-Loki MCU in regards to what is and isnt canon.
It's all canon, because the canon is built on a foundation that includes time-travel and alternate realities. Disparate stoylines can be neatly wedged into separate time streams, all of which 'count' as separate entities. The BBC series may be the Sacred Timeline of the Whoniverse, but that doesnt preclude other Timelines.
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Post by Chakoteya on Sept 8, 2021 8:56:34 GMT
Classic Who did sort of build its own canon - which was only really recognised once the show finished. The follow on book series tried to build on that and move it forward. Then the movie tried to mess with it by having the Doctor half human. (rolls eyes, bangs head on table) Then Nu-Who totally c****d it up - in my very personal cranky old woman's opinion - way before Jodie turned up. As for that Tardis interior redesign? I don't like it.
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Sept 8, 2021 12:38:17 GMT
Canon's not a thing I ever contemplate. Doctor Who destroyed Atlantis several times in about five years. So I'm not too bothered with it and if things don't fit together perfectly, I don't really care. Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey gets me past any questions about it. As long as it's a good story and doesn't change what Doctor Who's about, I don't worry about canon. I just think everything counts - telly, audio, books, theatre, spin-offs - they all expand the experience and all make Doctor Who bigger and richer, so for me everything counts, even the bits I don't like.
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Post by theillusiveman on Sept 8, 2021 13:08:59 GMT
Honestly the easiest way of Reconciling canon with The Show/ The Audios and The Books are Multiple Universe Approach
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Post by muckypup on Sept 8, 2021 13:28:51 GMT
Who really cares there are inaccuracies, in the tv series there are loads, so in extended media I happy that if it kinda fits I don’t care…..
As long as they don’t try and retcon every thing like a marvel multiverse or legends like Star Wars……..
Lungbarrow is still one of my favourite doctor who tales it don’t fit in the time line proper, I still enjoy it
Ask me ten years ago if I would accept an unknown incarnation I would say no…….but war doctor was great, so as long as they write a decent tale I’m happy I’ve come to realise
It really depends what type of person you are do you enjoy a story or dissecting more………
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